Classical Numismatics Discussion
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderators: AlexB, quadrans)  |  Topic: R4 definition 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Paul C4
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« on: August 30, 2017, 02:41:04 pm »

Hi there,

I was wondering if anyone knows what does a R4 coin means when we are talking about an Italian states bozzolo (beginning of the 17th century) tallero. I only managed to find images of 2 similar  coins on the internet and no records of any coin being sold to this point. According to an Italian site it's extremely rare but I'm not sure about the meaning in terms of mintage as the 76-200(R4) might not apply in this case.
Thank you!
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2017, 05:03:27 pm »

The meaning of a rarity rating cannot be determined by the coin type. It can only be determined by the reference from which it is quoted.
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cmcdon0923
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2017, 10:16:08 pm »

....the meaning in terms of mintage as the 76-200 (R4) might not apply in this case.

The rarity scale you reference, was originally developed by Dr. William Sheldon from his study of early US Large Cents. 

The "76-200" figure was not meant to portray the original mintage of a given coin (or specifically in Sheldon's case, a given die variety of large cent), but rather the estimated/known surviving population of a specific coin or variety.

The Sheldon scale is essentially as follows:

R-1 Common (> 1,250 known)
R-2 Not So Common (501 - 1,250)
R-3 Scarce (201 - 500)
R-4 Very Scarce (population est at 76-200)
R-5 Rare (31-75)
R-6 Very Rare (13-30)
R-7 Extremely rare (4-12)
R-8 Unique or Nearly So (1,2 or 3)


I believe there are other rarity scales developed more specifically for ancients (e.g., R, RR, RRR, etc..).  But personally I am not that familiar with them.
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Paul C4
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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2017, 02:46:14 am »

Thank you for your replies!
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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2017, 04:14:54 am »

Click on the words rarity or rare (they are blue text) for more information on rarity of ancient coins.
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2017, 02:08:02 pm »

Hi Paul,

I have Varesi's MIR reference books. Bozzolo is in the Lombardy region of Italy.

According to Varesi, there are several tallero coins listed for that time period. They all appear to be issued by Scipione Gonzaga (1609-1670). Here are the reference numbers:

MIR 39, CNI 1, R5
MIR 40, CNI2/3, R5
MIR 54, CNI 19, R5
MIR 55, CNI 20/23, R4
MIR 56, CNI 24, R5
MIR 57, CNI ---, R5
MIR 58, CNI 94, R5

Which one are you referring to?

Varesi uses a different rarity scale than the one described above. An R5 coin is essentially unique, or close to it.

I have a Tassarolo quarto di scudo coin that looks similar to a few Bozzolo tallero coins (first coin):

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/mi_tassarolo.htm

Does the coin that you are referring to look like this one?

Meepzorp
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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2017, 04:45:33 pm »

Hi Paul,

For most ancient coins (Greek, Roman, etc.), reference books (and dealers) typically use the following rarity scale:

C = common
NC = not common (scarce)
R or R1 = rare
RR or R2 = very rare
RRR or R3 = extremely rare

However, the situation is different when we are dealing with Medieval coins. For most Medieval coins, including Italian Medieval coins, reference books (and dealers) typically use the following rarity scale:

C = common
NC = not common (scarce)
R or R1 = rare
RR or R2 = very rare
RRR or R3 = extremely rare
RRRR or R4 = of great rarity, usually less than 10-20 known specimens
RRRRR or R5 = of the greatest rarity, possibly/probably unique

This is the rarity scale that is used by Varesi in his MIR series of reference books.

The 7 Bozzolo tallero coins listed in Varesi's MIR Lombardy reference book are all R4 (1 of them) or R5 (6 of them) coins. All of these coins are of the greatest rarity. There may be only 1 or 2 known examples of each of those issues.

Meepzorp
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 11:16:46 am »

For ancient coins, I do not agree that C - RRR or C - R3 is a scale that most reference books and dealers use. C - R5 and C to R10 are very common too.

The important point is that no one should assume that R3 means extremely rare. Some references use R1 - R10 and R3 indicates a quite common coin.
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Paul C4
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2017, 08:39:40 am »

Hello there,

I was talking about a scipione gonzaga tallero that i have( 80 soldi con l' aquila imperiale) which in lamoneta.it is described as R4 (extremly rare).Thank you very much for your thoughts and your time!
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderators: AlexB, quadrans)  |  Topic: R4 definition « previous next »
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