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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderators: AlexB, quadrans)  |  Topic: ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ??? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ???  (Read 835 times)
Vladislav D
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« on: August 10, 2017, 07:30:29 pm »

 Bought this coin a few years ago and since then it was in the box . So recently I looked at the coin closely and think that attribution is not right Huh I always have trouble with this type of coins Smiley Please confirm if this attribution is correct :
Kingdom of JERUSALEM . Imitative of Damascus Dirham of Ayyubid al-Salih Isma'il and the Abbasid Caliph al-Mustansir, 1244 - 1250
2.894g, 22.9mm, Acre(?) mint, 1244 - 1250
obverse : Arabic legends: in center: "al-Malik al-Salih / Imad al-Dunya wa'l-Din / Isma'il b. Abi Bakr", in margins: "In the name of God, struck in Damascus year 641 (or another year)" (or similar, blundered, margins mostly off flan)
reverse : Arabic legends: in center: "al- Imam / Al-Mustansir / billah Abu Ja'far / al-Mansur Amir al-Mu'mininin", in margins: "There is no god but God alone; none is associated with him; Muhammad is the Messenger of God" (or similar, blundered, margins mostly off flan).
Bates Crusader type I, Balog 36 - 37 ; CCS 3
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-120863
Best Regards,
Vlad.
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Oleg D
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2017, 12:33:40 am »

This is not a coin of Crusader imitations. This is the usual dirham Ayyubid al-Salih Ayyub, mint Dimashq.
Ref. Balog #544, SNAT Damaskus #788-790
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Vladislav D
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2017, 12:58:46 pm »

Thank you, Oleg! This is the second time that you helped me with the correct attribution of this type of coin  Thumbs Up
Regards ,
Vlad.
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Joe Sermarini
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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2017, 05:48:37 pm »

The coin is ex Alex Malloy and he identified it as a crusader imitation.
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Joseph Sermarini
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Oleg D
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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 10:21:21 am »

Dear Joe Sermarini.
Perhaps you are confusing something, but this coin is not a coin of the Crusaders.
If you can read in Arabic show me where it is written on the coin : "Isma'il b. Abi Bakr".
This is a completely different type of coin.

Here, a similar coin is also sold by imitation of the Crusaders, but this is not so. This is either a vendor error or a commercial reception.
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/sphinx_numismatics/151/product/182ff8_crusader_imitation_of_the_ayyubid_alsaleh_ismail_635__637643_ah_1237__12391245_ad_ar_dirham__dimashq_dm_normally_with_hijri_date_but_missing_album_type__8491_i/265250/Default.aspx

In the base of Zeno coins of this type are here https://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=4867

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Oleg D
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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 10:35:25 am »

On the site of Zeno, my nickname is Newcoins and I'm moderator of Ayyubid coins and Crusaders Imitations of the Ayyubid coins.
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Joe Sermarini
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 10:39:14 am »

I am not saying you are wrong.  I am only saying EXACTLY this... "The coin is ex Alex Malloy and he identified it as a crusader imitation."
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Joseph Sermarini
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Oleg D
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 11:20:22 am »

Description of the coin is incorrect. This is not a type of Malloy Crusaders 3
The last line of the obverse is - Ayub b. Muhammad

Someday everyone can make mistakes.
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Sam
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 01:30:42 pm »


The last line of the obverse is - Ayub b. Muhammad

Someday everyone can make mistakes.


Which is NOT clear to read ( if not impossible ) even for Arabic readers , but you figured the coin out from the first word of second line نجم which is part of the nick name of the ruler   نجم الدين Najem al- Din , plus your experience. Good job.
However, Joe is telling you what Malloy said about the coin, not what Joe Sermarini said.
Also , I would not call Malloy ‘s job , a mistake . I would call it an error, the man was trying in language not his first, yet Islamic coins are hard to read specially in Bronze . If you miss one letter , the whole word can be different , I am sure you know that.

Welcome to FORVM , Oleg.
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Sam Mansourati
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderators: AlexB, quadrans)  |  Topic: ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ??? « previous next »
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