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Author Topic: ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ???  (Read 1614 times)

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Offline Vladislav D

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ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ???
« on: August 10, 2017, 09:30:29 pm »
 Bought this coin a few years ago and since then it was in the box . So recently I looked at the coin closely and think that attribution is not right ??? I always have trouble with this type of coins :) Please confirm if this attribution is correct :
Kingdom of JERUSALEM . Imitative of Damascus Dirham of Ayyubid al-Salih Isma'il and the Abbasid Caliph al-Mustansir, 1244 - 1250
2.894g, 22.9mm, Acre(?) mint, 1244 - 1250
obverse : Arabic legends: in center: "al-Malik al-Salih / Imad al-Dunya wa'l-Din / Isma'il b. Abi Bakr", in margins: "In the name of God, struck in Damascus year 641 (or another year)" (or similar, blundered, margins mostly off flan)
reverse : Arabic legends: in center: "al- Imam / Al-Mustansir / billah Abu Ja'far / al-Mansur Amir al-Mu'mininin", in margins: "There is no god but God alone; none is associated with him; Muhammad is the Messenger of God" (or similar, blundered, margins mostly off flan).
Bates Crusader type I, Balog 36 - 37 ; CCS 3
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-120863
Best Regards,
Vlad.

Oleg D

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Re: ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ???
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2017, 02:33:40 am »
This is not a coin of Crusader imitations. This is the usual dirham Ayyubid al-Salih Ayyub, mint Dimashq.
Ref. Balog #544, SNAT Damaskus #788-790

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ???
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2017, 02:58:46 pm »
Thank you, Oleg! This is the second time that you helped me with the correct attribution of this type of coin  +++
Regards ,
Vlad.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ???
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2017, 07:48:37 pm »
The coin is ex Alex Malloy and he identified it as a crusader imitation.
Joseph Sermarini
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Oleg D

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Re: ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ???
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 12:21:21 pm »
Dear Joe Sermarini.
Perhaps you are confusing something, but this coin is not a coin of the Crusaders.
If you can read in Arabic show me where it is written on the coin : "Isma'il b. Abi Bakr".
This is a completely different type of coin.

Here, a similar coin is also sold by imitation of the Crusaders, but this is not so. This is either a vendor error or a commercial reception.
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/sphinx_numismatics/151/product/182ff8_crusader_imitation_of_the_ayyubid_alsaleh_ismail_635__637643_ah_1237__12391245_ad_ar_dirham__dimashq_dm_normally_with_hijri_date_but_missing_album_type__8491_i/265250/Default.aspx

In the base of Zeno coins of this type are here https://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=4867


Oleg D

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Re: ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ???
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 12:35:25 pm »
On the site of Zeno, my nickname is Newcoins and I'm moderator of Ayyubid coins and Crusaders Imitations of the Ayyubid coins.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ???
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 12:39:14 pm »
I am not saying you are wrong.  I am only saying EXACTLY this... "The coin is ex Alex Malloy and he identified it as a crusader imitation."
Joseph Sermarini
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Oleg D

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Re: ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ???
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 01:20:22 pm »
Description of the coin is incorrect. This is not a type of Malloy Crusaders 3
The last line of the obverse is - Ayub b. Muhammad

Someday everyone can make mistakes.

Offline Sam

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Re: ID conformation. Imitative of Damascus Dirham ???
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 03:30:42 pm »

The last line of the obverse is - Ayub b. Muhammad

Someday everyone can make mistakes.


Which is NOT clear to read ( if not impossible ) even for Arabic readers , but you figured the coin out from the first word of second line نجم which is part of the nick name of the ruler   نجم الدين Najem al- Din , plus your experience. Good job.
However, Joe is telling you what Malloy said about the coin, not what Joe Sermarini said.
Also , I would not call Malloy ‘s job , a mistake . I would call it an error, the man was trying in language not his first, yet Islamic coins are hard to read specially in Bronze . If you miss one letter , the whole word can be different , I am sure you know that.

Welcome to FORVM , Oleg.
Sam Mansourati

 

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