Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 1 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 1 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Victoriatus 53/1 or 166/1 looking for input  (Read 2287 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 77HK77

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Victoriatus 53/1 or 166/1 looking for input
« on: July 29, 2017, 10:07:24 pm »
I recently acquired a Victoriatus that had been listed as a crawford 53/1 however in reviewing Friedman and Schaefer's well done  Diagnostic Guide to Anonymous Victoriati I not so sure 53/1 is correct for this coin.

It appears to me closer to 166/1.,but as this is the first Victoriatus to find a home in my collection I'm not entirely confident is my diagnosis.

53/1 as described in the guide (http://stevebrinkman.ancients.info/anonymous/AnonymousVictoriatii.html#quickfinder)

"Both obverse and reverse exhibit fine style. Jupiter’s head is well-engraved with great detail. The hair is usually biperpendicular, although in a few cases it is perpendicular (Fig. 8). On the great majority of dies the head is squarish, but a few are somewhat elongated (taller than wide) (Fig. 10). The overall impression is elegance. If Jupiter looks powerful or arrogant, it’s not Cr. 53/1.
On the reverse, the trophy almost always has no base; a few dies have a small one"

Compared to 166/1
"Both sides of the Cr. 166/1 victoriati are quite sloppy--a feature they share with the Cr. 167/1 anonymous denarii. Like the Cr. 167/1 denarii, these coins are light in weight (minted on a standard of about 2.7 grams for the victoriati and about 3.7 grams for the denarii). Jupiter’s head is small, with a projecting hair beard and confused semi-perpendicular hair that usually has a few wild strands. One small group does have neat biperpendicular hair(Fig. 32). The small trophy has a skirt but no greaves or base. The skirt usually is composed of five lines, but sometimes a cursory skirt looks more like two greaves with slanting ends on them. The wreath held by Victory is always below the spear."

Also worth mentioning my coin weights in at 2.55. Similar to 166/1

What do you think 53/1 or 166/1 or something else?

Offline Jordan Montgomery

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
    • Gallery of my Roman Republican coin collection
Re: Victoriatus 53/1 or 166/1 looking for input
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 06:45:20 pm »
Nice victoriatus and you are correct in cataloging it as 166/1. Nice work! If you continue collecting them you will find that many sellers attribute these incorrectly and you can find many rare and interesting anonymous victoriati and denarii mis-attributed to the two large "bucket" catalog numbers Crawford 44 and 53.
Gallery of my collection with notes and discussion of Republican history and numismatics

Offline stevex6

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1523
Re: Victoriatus 53/1 or 166/1 looking for input
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 08:13:00 pm »
I think that it rocks!! (sweet pickup)

Oh, and just in case this helps you out, I happen to have a very sweet example of this type (it may even still hold the Forvm Championship-belt?)

Roman Republic, Anonymous AR Victoriatus
(Rome mint)
Date: After 211 BC
Diameter: 17.9 mm
Weight: 2.9 grams
Obverse:  Laureate head of Jupiter
Reverse:  Victory standing right, crowning trophy
References: Crawford 53/1
Characteristics: Good style, perfect centering and high grade
It was voted best of type in Forvm galleries in 2014 (and still might hold the title?)
From the Professor James R. Eaton Collection

Social Distortion really sums it up ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SOb_xlnpPQ


Offline 77HK77

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Victoriatus 53/1 or 166/1 looking for input
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2017, 07:26:09 pm »
Thank you for the input

Cataloged as 166/1!

Offline stevex6

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1523
Re: Victoriatus 53/1 or 166/1 looking for input
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2017, 09:54:41 pm »
Yah, it's no 53/1


 :afro:

Offline Joss

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 88
Re: Victoriatus 53/1 or 166/1 looking for input
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2017, 11:04:07 am »
Nice victoriatus and you are correct in cataloging it as 166/1. Nice work! If you continue collecting them you will find that many sellers attribute these incorrectly and you can find many rare and interesting anonymous victoriati and denarii mis-attributed to the two large "bucket" catalog numbers Crawford 44 and 53.
I however suspect that many of these "rare" anonymous issues are only rare because they are misattributed by cataloguers. There is only one instance of RRC 166/1 listed on acsearch: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=victoriat*+166%2F1 (Rauch's coin is misattributed as well).
Whereas Crawford counted 100 obverse dies and 125 reverse dies!

Offline Jordan Montgomery

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
    • Gallery of my Roman Republican coin collection
Re: Victoriatus 53/1 or 166/1 looking for input
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2017, 10:16:00 pm »
Nice victoriatus and you are correct in cataloging it as 166/1. Nice work! If you continue collecting them you will find that many sellers attribute these incorrectly and you can find many rare and interesting anonymous victoriati and denarii mis-attributed to the two large "bucket" catalog numbers Crawford 44 and 53.
I however suspect that many of these "rare" anonymous issues are only rare because they are misattributed by cataloguers. There is only one instance of RRC 166/1 listed on acsearch: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=victoriat*+166%2F1 (Rauch's coin is misattributed as well).
Whereas Crawford counted 100 obverse dies and 125 reverse dies!

You are partially correct. Many types like 166/1, 70/1, etc. are much more common than ACSearch would leave one to believe because of misattributions. On the other hand, there are still multiple genuinely rare types that are misdescribed equally or more often than correctly described. One such issue is 90/2(Crawford 3O 2R dies, actual number slightly higher) and another is 92/1b(unsigned CROT issue), both of which I purchased incorrectly attributed. In my opinion the best way to gauge rarity of many of these issues is by doing a rudimentary die study by going through auction catalogs/ACSearch and public collections(i.e. BnF, BMC and ANS) and collecting and sorting all the found examples, which is what I've done for my own records. It's not perfect as some are over-represented based on recent hoard finds and whatnot but it does give a much better idea than simply typing the Crawford number into ACSearch.
Gallery of my collection with notes and discussion of Republican history and numismatics

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Victoriatus 53/1 or 166/1 looking for input
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2018, 04:25:14 am »
I think that it rocks!! (sweet pickup)

Oh, and just in case this helps you out, I happen to have a very sweet example of this type (it may even still hold the Forvm Championship-belt?)

Roman Republic, Anonymous AR Victoriatus
(Rome mint)
Date: After 211 BC
Diameter: 17.9 mm
Weight: 2.9 grams
Obverse:  Laureate head of Jupiter
Reverse:  Victory standing right, crowning trophy
References: Crawford 53/1
Characteristics: Good style, perfect centering and high grade
It was voted best of type in Forvm galleries in 2014 (and still might hold the title?)
From the Professor James R. Eaton Collection

Social Distortion really sums it up ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SOb_xlnpPQ



This is now my coin. Nice. I was unaware of the "Professor James R. Easton Collection" provenance. It was sold to me without provenance. I have no idea who Professor Easton is or was, or when he collected or divested. If he is the current chemistry professor of the same name at Georgia Highlands College, his students have given him rather … curious ... class reviews. I would appreciate any information from anyone on the "Professor James R. Easton Collection".

On the main topic of this thread, the coin is indeed 166/1. The spiky horizontal beard is a main marker for me. It matches the beard and bust design on Saturn on semisses of the same period. It helps to know the bronzes.

Offline stevex6

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1523
Re: Victoriatus 53/1 or 166/1 looking for input
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2018, 01:28:09 pm »
Hi Andrew ... Steve here

Congrats on scoring that great coin (it was one of my all-time favourites)

 +++

Sadly, I don't know any more info on its provenance

Good luck finding-out more about this sweet coin

Cheers

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity