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Author Topic: Timoleon casts  (Read 1578 times)

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Offline Din X

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Timoleon casts
« on: July 24, 2017, 04:24:20 pm »
Picture 1+2 are imho the same coin and the authentic host and 18,64g + 18,7g

Picture 3+4 are imho cast fakes 15,31g + 15,88g

Why am I posting these obvious fakes ?

It is because of the black artificila patina of one of them which can be found on several of this Sicilian fakes. If you see Sicilian coins which such a patina caution :)

 



Offline peterpil19

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2017, 02:31:40 am »
Hi Din X,

I enjoy learning from your posts on this Board.

For those of us less knowledgeable can you please share why 3 and 4 are obvious fakes?

It might be the quality of the photos but I could not see any of the obvious signs of a cast fake. Were it not for your post and pointing out that they match coin 1&2 exactly (which must prove that they are copies of 1&2), they would not have seemed suspect to me.

Thanks,

Peter

Offline Din X

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2017, 04:33:32 am »
Hi Din X,

I enjoy learning from your posts on this Board.

For those of us less knowledgeable can you please share why 3 and 4 are obvious fakes?

It might be the quality of the photos but I could not see any of the obvious signs of a cast fake. Were it not for your post and pointing out that they match coin 1&2 exactly (which must prove that they are copies of 1&2), they would not have seemed suspect to me.

Thanks,

Peter

They are casting twins, the more individual characteristics 2 ancient coins share the lower the chance that they are authentic till it is impossible that they are authentic (mathematical probability)!!
They are identical except that the fakes (casting twins) have  artificial patina, lower weight (due to volume size and weight shrinkage of the melted metal in the casting mould when cooling down), the softer details on the cast fakes/twins, casting defects  and pearls and round holes from the air bubbles escaping.

I have circled such a CRICULAR/ROUND hole that is 100% from a air bubble (picure 1 this post)

Small round/circular pits into the coin´s surface or small bumps rising from it are caused by air bubbles created during casting process.
If pitting or porosity is caused by corrosion, then the pits are sharper at their edges, weider at their openings and less round than pits caused by casting.

As written above they are casting twins, they share the same planchet flan shape, same die axis and centering and wear. 4 individual characteristics are exactly the same = impossible that the twins  from picture 3+4 from my last post are authentic.
To the wear on obverse, the first two letters ZE of ΖΕΥΣ are missing on the host due to corrosion and are so missing  on the casting twins, too. And on the reverse of host the Ο of ΣΥΡΑΚΟΣΙΩΝ is damaged/incompleted due to corrosion which was transferred to the cast twins.
I think that I can see casting defects and pearls on the twins, too.
There is a clear circular/round holes from air bubble on these cast fakes/twins.
 

One great think about ancient coins is that they are unique!

What makes every ancient coin unique?

0. Ok, first of all you have  the planchets, although they were casted in stone or sand moulds (connected with channels for better fillling) they do often look a little bit or sometimes really different.


1. The differences due to striking makes every ancient coin unique!

This ancient coins were minted by humans so there is the human factor.

A.)The humans  often did not care of the die axis so the die axis of many issues/emissions can vary much!

B.) The humans did not care about the exact position of the planchet between the dies so many uncentered or bad centered ancient coins exist and very good centered examples are very rare of some emissions. We need more coins and we need them yesterday. Producing coins was a mass production and they did not have time to take care of such things like centering etc.

C.) The factor striking/hammering, the striker did not always hit the dies with the same power and at the same position.
What can happen:
1.Individual edge or planchet cracks can appear one some of them
2.die shift/slippage
3.flat struck areas
4. double struck areas
5. soft strike


D.) The dies used to make coins suffer due to die wear and die flaws and die cracks, flow lines etc. after some usage.
     I guess everyone knows that coins struck from the same dies can look pretty different:
If you compare coins struck with these dies when they were fresh without die flaws/cracks and and sharp details and no flow lines
with examples that were struck from the same pair of dies but in a much later die state which shows die wear in combination with die flaws/cracks, flow lines etc.

2. Differences due to wear or environment make every ancient coin unique

A.) I hope I do not have to explain why the wear is individual on every coin!
Some coins were pretty long in circulation some not!
It makes a difference with what coins the coin was rubbing on each other in the bag/pocket.
The realtion rubbing in pocket to rubbing fingers when paying with the money.

B.) Test cuts or bankers marks

C.) Scratches /contact marks when the coins were rubbing on each other or from cleaning or diggers

D.) Environment can damage silver and bronze coins (corrosion/lamination)

So and in which environment protected or not protected (burried or lost) will decide how much corrosion and what kind of patina or toning they will have.

Here is a standard text how to detect cast fakes not from me and not perfect but ok and in much better English than mine and so better understandable

I. Presence or remains of a seam where the mold halves fitted together
II. Remnants of a casting sprue/channel where the molten metal was poured into the mold
III. Edge filing to hide the seam or sprue ( Surfaces can also be filed/cleaned)
IV. Soft mushy appearance (soapy) poorly formed details and letters that melt into the field
V. Surface voids , bubbles, extra surface metal from the poured metal
VI. Lack of flow lines/strike
VII. Lack of edge cracks or contain shallow dull cracks (most won’t travel from side to side)
VIII. Wrong weight (low or high) in relation to known genuine examples
VIIII. Wrong size, shape or thickness. Cast coins can often be found slightly smaller in diameter due to the shrinkage during the casting process
X. casting defects, knots (pearls)

There are many more Sicilian cast fakes out there (I know more), should we make a thread and collect them?

Best regards
Daniel


Offline RL

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2017, 07:58:46 am »
That is a very informative post Din X, thank you. It is very helpful to get such a detailed illustrated explanation.

And Peter - thank you for asking the question:

Quote
It might be the quality of the photos but I could not see any of the obvious signs of a cast fake. Were it not for your post and pointing out that they match coin 1&2 exactly (which must prove that they are copies of 1&2), they would not have seemed suspect to me.

On first blush that was my thoughts exactly!

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2017, 08:01:31 am »
Din X,

Thank you.  You educate us.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2017, 08:13:24 am »
Din X's post above is excellent.

Let me add that the two fakes would have caught my eye because of the patinas. Whenever I see a patina worn on the high points, I take a closer look because fake patinas are often thin and worn on high points. A genuine patina can be worn on high points. Also, a genuine coin can have a fake patina. So all worn high points say is, look carefully.

The overall appearance is very suspicious to me because I have seen a lot of these casts, but the indications of casting, other than the fake patinas, are not obvious enough for me to describe. The flaws that suggest casting are subtle enough to also be possible on genuine coins.

Whenever I receive coins with this suspicious appearance, I look for twins online. I usually find them and often they were sold by normally reliable auction houses.

Buy from dealers with a good guarantee. That is the best protection against this type of fake.  

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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2017, 08:13:41 am »
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Offline Din X

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2017, 11:53:27 am »
There are many of these holes, I only marked the most obvious one ;)

There is an article how to detect cast fakes for beginners at coinsweeekly

http://www.coinsweekly.com/en/Archive/How-to-detect-forgeries/8?&id=13&type=a

"like a little meanwhile decomposed micro residue on the blank. (small insect, food piece,wood chip etc. )"

"small insect, food piece,wood chip" are imho not perfectly round so how can they create prefectly circular holes?
Why and how do insects, food, and wood find their way into the melted metal in the casting mould ? (Is that really realistic?)
There is a hugh difference and it looks different if the hot air/gas is escaping and creating an air bubble that bursts = air leaves the metal OR if wood, insects, food fall into the metal.

It is extremely rare but possible that air was caught in the planchets used to create ancient coins but now it comes, this surface problems will be removed due to striking ;)
Coins get mint lustre from hammering/striking/minting !!!

Minting will remove the surface problems of the planchets which they posssibly have, because they were made due to casting in a open clay or stone mould!!!!!!!!!

Even if insects, food, wood and whatever fell into the metal in the casting mould, it does not matter because the metal flow due to striking will remove all of this surface problems!!!!

As written before these holes are from the air that was caught in the hot melted metal and this air tries to escape.
Air (gas) is lighter than metal and will so go to the top of the mould.
These escaping air which goes to the top and will create there a metal bubble.
Now is the question when the metal will cool down completely, if the metal cools down before the casting bubble (filled with air) can burst you will have a peral/knot, if the casting bubble  (filled with air) can burst before the metal cooles down you will get this typical circular/round holes from air bubbles.
Casting defects occur if the mould is not filled completely with metal.


The clay/stone mould used to cast the planchets are open on the top so the air can escape!
Casting moulds to create cast fakes are closed so the air is caught in the casting mould and the air will escape to the top of the mould and create there either knots/pearls or holes if the bubble bursted!!!

I want to add to my post above to detect cast fakes from coinsweekly an aspect that I have forgotten!!!

"If you take a coin in your hand and look at it from the side and you realize that the surface is not concave, as it ought to be because of the pressure that has been applied using a hammer to strike it, if the surface is convex which is technically not possible if you have a struck coin, then you will have to conclude that the coin is cast and fake."

@ Djmacdo, I seriously doubt that I can educate you, my knowledge is very limited and you are only so polite to let me do the whole writing .

@Joe Sermarini , thx that was exactly the reason why I posted this.
I look first for the parina on bronze coins!
If the patina is fine = coin is authentic.
Artificial patina, coin is either fake (most likely) or an authentic coin was repatinated (extremely rare).  

I add a picture of an authentic but repatinated (artificial patina) MACRINUS Sestertius.

Picture 1+2 before repatination

Picture 3 after repatination (artificial patina was applied)

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2017, 11:56:45 am »
More important is the fact that the two questioned coins are absolutely identical to the legitimate coin and yet can be distinguished from it by the slight but significant softness of details such as slight irregularities in the field.  All that seems to indicate casts in my mind.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2017, 02:39:06 pm »
More important is the fact that the two questioned coins are absolutely identical to the legitimate coin and yet can be distinguished from it by the slight but significant softness of details such as slight irregularities in the field.  All that seems to indicate casts in my mind.

Unfortunately, the softness is much less obvious when not right next to a photo of a genuine coin. Without duplicates, coins from this maker have often passed as genuine.
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Offline Din X

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2017, 03:50:04 pm »
The condemnation was because of the casting twins.

I tried to explain why I doubted the coins and later checked them. (artificial patina, soft details and circular holes).
If a coin has these problems it should be check really really carefully because there is a very high chance that it is likely but not necessarily fake.

Pictures can be misleading and I would not have dared to condemn them without the twins (although I would have known that there is a very very high chance that they must be fake) !

To know that a coin is most likely fake is not that hard, but to definitive prove a coin fake can be very hard.

But to prove a coin authentic is even much more harder ^^

A bronze coin with a good an authentic patina is authentic.

A thread with such authentic patinas that can not be imitated would be good.

A thread with artificial patinas would be good, too.

A thread with altered patinas due to tooling, smoothing or if they are used as planchet to strike/press transfer die bronze fakes would be good.

Most fakes can be detected very easily, it might not be always possible to definitive condemn them but it is enough to know that they are fake and to avoid them! Avoiding these fake will mean that some authentic coins will possibly be avoided too.
Authentic coins can look suspicious on pictures (pictures can be misleading) and it can look in pictures like they do share the same characteristics with fakes

The transfer die fake Sicilian litrae and some of their other silver fakes have very often a characteristic black artificial toning (so if you see such a toning on such coins caution)

The planchets some Sicilian forgers used for fake tetradrachms are identical, the planchets of authentic coins are not completely identical etc.

The transfer die fakes overstruck on authentic coins which were used as planchets will get a characteristic patina, too.


Etc.

I guess that no one will be participating so this will never happen.








 





Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2017, 04:10:10 pm »
I guess that no one will be participating so this will never happen.

One way to be certain they will happen is to start them yourself. :)
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2017, 09:12:40 pm »
I add a fake coin report with a combined image to the Fake coin reports and additional individual reports for the two fake in the study images.  Please look here to see the Artificial Patina, Toning and "Make-up" study images in the fake coin reports - https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/thumbnails.php?album=24
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Offline peterpil19

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Re: Timoleon casts
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2017, 10:34:22 pm »
I guess that no one will be participating so this will never happen.

One way to be certain they will happen is to start them yourself. :)


Hi Din X,

Thank you very much for your detailed explanations above.

I believe threads on the subjects you have suggested would be most informative and useful on this Fakes Board - especially if stickied.  Even if there are only a few examples in each thread and occasionally contributed to, I still think they will be useful to those coming to this Board for answers.

Peter

 

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