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Author Topic: Syracuse, Agathokles, AE 24, Herakles / Lion brockage or double-strike?  (Read 1646 times)

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Offline EB

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I have a coin
Syracuse, Agathokles, SICILY, AE 24, 317-289 BC
Obverse: Young Herakles head
Reverse: Lion

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-137764

There is something odd about the lion on this coin. Is it a brockage or a double-strike? Neither seems right to me. It almost looks like a thunderbolt overlaying the front leg. But where would a thunderbolt come from (insert joke here)? Any opinions would be appreciated.


Offline Meepzorp

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Hi EB,

It looks like a countermark to me. The lion's entire neck area is obliterated. But I don't see a flat spot on the obverse.

In addition to that, the lion may also be slightly double struck.

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Hi EB,

Here is my example (scroll down, last coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/gs_sicl_syra_pt03.htm

Your example is much nicer than mine.

Meepzorp

Offline EB

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Hi Meepzorp,
Interesting, I hadn't thought of a countermark. By the way, I followed your link and I learned a new term:  winged fulmen.
Thanks!
-EB

Offline djmacdo

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I am sure that what you are seeing is not a countermark but rather the remains of an overstruck type.  Agathokles' bronzes used the thunderbolt reverse and are often overstruck.

Offline EB

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Of course, that make much more sense. Thank you for clearing that up. I'm updating the description accordingly.
Regards,
EB

Offline PtolemAE

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Of course, that make much more sense. Thank you for clearing that up. I'm updating the description accordingly.
Regards,
EB

Indeed, part of a thunderbolt wing end seems to be visible near the head of the lionSyracuse recycled several bronze coin types and many overstrikes have traces of 'thunderbolt' undertypes.  A bit mysterious that the Soteira/thunderbolt type with Agathocles name right on it became re-struck as the Heracles/lion type that is also said to be an issue of Agathocles.  The more mysterious
that, as organized in SNG ANS 'Syracuse', both types are from the same brief 6-year period near the end of Agathocles reign.  Why not just countermark the 'name' coins ... unless... re-striking deliberately removed the name?  The Soteira/thunderbolt types do not mention 'Syracuse' on them while the subsequent types do - suggesting the former is 'personal  coinage' and the latter might be 'city coinage'.  Many original and overstruck examples are very common today, giving us plenty of material for study. 

The overstrike phenomenon in Greek numismatics is so important; sometimes the only physical evidence of temporal succession of coin types comes from overstrikes.  Mac's book is *the* resource on the topic.  Can't recommend it enough: Overstruck Greek Coins by David MacDonald, published by Whitman.

PtolemAE

Offline EB

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This is a fascinating topic. I like puzzles and mysteries and I'll definitely pick a copy of the book. Thanks everyone for your help.

Offline stevex6

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Glad that you guys got it figured-out ... interesting findings

Ummm, I merely want to add my example because it might help other members see the diff between an example "without" your coin's cool condition ...


Offline Molinari

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That's a great example of the type.

Offline PtolemAE

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Glad that you guys got it figured-out ... interesting findings

Ummm, I merely want to add my example because it might help other members see the diff between an example "without" your coin's cool condition ...



Apparently this one is *not* an overstrike of a 'thunderbolt' coin.  Any chance of getting the weight of this specimen ?.

Thanks.

PtolemAE

Offline Enodia

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perhaps i'm confused, a situation which occurs much more than i care to admit. or maybe i'm just reading the photo wrong. but it seems to me that the fulmen, the apparent undertype, is struck on top of the lion.
am i missing something here?

muddled once again,
~ Peter


Offline djmacdo

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It looks like that, but the effect is due to failure of the metal to fill the die completely there, so a portion of the original surface survives.

Offline PtolemAE

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It looks like that, but the effect is due to failure of the metal to fill the die completely there, so a portion of the original surface survives.

The mental picture of overstriking's effects may seem counterintuitive: that the part of the coin where the undertype is most likely to be visible is where the 'overstrike' die's design is at its highest relief - the part of the re-striking die that is least likely to obliterate what was on the undertype.  It's the flat fields (and other relatively low-relief areas) that are the most likely parts of the overstriking die to smash into and obliterate what was raised above the surface (in relief) on the undertype coin.


PtolemAE

Offline EB

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The coin in my original post is 8.01 grams (according to my spreadsheet; I don't have the coin in hand).

Offline PtolemAE

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The coin in my original post is 8.01 grams (according to my spreadsheet; I don't have the coin in hand).


Thank you.  That's consistent with the 'thunderbolt' type (the original coin before being re-struck) weight range. 

Perhaps the weight of the 'non-overstruck' coin also shown above will also be reported for comparison. 

PtolemAE

Offline Meepzorp

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perhaps i'm confused, a situation which occurs much more than i care to admit. or maybe i'm just reading the photo wrong. but it seems to me that the fulmen, the apparent undertype, is struck on top of the lion.
am i missing something here?

muddled once again,
~ Peter



Hi Enodia,

That's why I thought it was a countermark. But I didn't see a flat spot on the obverse.

Meepzorp

 

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