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Author Topic: Philip II bronze varieties  (Read 1082 times)

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Offline RL

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Philip II bronze varieties
« on: June 11, 2017, 08:37:55 am »
I have two bronze coins attributed to Philip II of Macedon in my collection which I have just sat down to find in the online catalogues (sorry no pictures of my two at the moment - they are the obvs: male head wearing a tania, rev: naked youth on horseback type, the image below is from a members gallery (Potator II) just as an illustration of what I am talking about).



I have tracked both of my two coins down through Wildwinds and on the Macedonian Kingdom: bronze coinage sites (both of which I came across through Forvm - thanks!), but in the course of that exercise I noted that there are quite a lot of variants on this design - i.e. different horse poses, different possible facings for the horse or head, and different lettering or monograms on the reverse under the horse. None of these variations seem to be explained on the sites that I could find (and a search of google and the discussion boards here too).

Is there any information out there about the meaning/significance of the monograms, and/or the relative rarity (or otherwise) of the different varieties of these kind of coins?

Kind regards

RL

Offline peterpil19

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Re: Philip II bronze varieties
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2017, 08:00:23 am »
Greetings,

These marks are known as 'control marks'.

I am collecting the bronze coinage of Philip II. I would also be interested if anyone can point us towards any research on this subject.

I found the following article: https://brooklynsabbatical.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/witschonke-2012-die-marks-rbn.pdf
It is on die marks on Republican coinage but states the following in relation to the Philip II bronze coins:

In 1976, Hersh published another die study of a marked issue : C. Piso Frugi
(rrc 408). He examined 1,307 specimens of the coinage, identified 204 obverse
and 232 reverse dies, and carefully mapped their 486 combinations, searching
for the key to the organization of the issue. Unfortunately, he did not find it.
He was able to identify three large linkage groups comprising 44, 106 and 21
obverse dies (p. 10).  The first group predominantly (77%) utilized laureate
obverse heads of Apollo, with a control mark above the horseman (97%), while
the other two groups mainly show the head of Apollo bound with a taenia
(86%), leading Hersh to conclude that there were two or three workshops
active within the mint. But he failed to find any pattern in the use of the marks,
and had to conclude that the marks were intended “to regulate the usage and
output of individual coin dies”, but that the attempt was unsuccessful
(p. 7).


I notice there is no numiswiki article for 'Control Mark'?

If that is the case there is an opportunity to create one by someone more knowledgable on the subject?

Peter

Offline OldMoney

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Re: Philip II bronze varieties
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2017, 11:37:01 am »
It is on die marks on Republican coinage but states the following in relation to the Philip II bronze coins:

Peter,
Forgive my asking as I seem to be missing something, but where
exactly does this article relate anything about the coins of Philip II,
as you state?
Quote
In 1976, Hersh published another die study of a marked issue : C. Piso Frugi
That passage you quote relates precisely to the coins of C. Piso Frugi
(ie: denarii) as clearly indicated in the first line. I can find no mention
of any bronze coins of Philip II at all!
What have I missed? Thanks for your help.

Walter
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline peterpil19

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Re: Philip II bronze varieties
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2017, 03:38:15 pm »
You are not missing anything, my mistake. Put it down to posting too late at night but I must have thought I read Philip II at the time and obviously confused by the Apollo and horseman reference when was searching the article. How embarrassing!

Offline peterpil19

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Re: Philip II bronze varieties
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2017, 07:30:26 pm »
OK. To redeem myself of an error of such magnitude that my late-night post above deserves to have the words "FAIL" watermarked all over it, here is a link to a more relevant article I found which describes potential use for control marks, primarily on Alexander the Great coinage but also references the coinage of Philip II.

https://www.brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/publications/papers/alexander_coinage/alexander.html

Offline n.igma

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Re: Philip II bronze varieties
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2017, 08:05:13 pm »

Is there any information out there about the meaning/significance of the monograms, and/or the relative rarity (or otherwise) of the different varieties of these kind of coins?


The best summary and exposition I have come across, but nothing directly on the topic of the coinage of Philip II....

Callataÿ, F. de. 2012. Control marks on Hellenistic royal coinages: use, and evolution toward simplification?  Revue Belge de Numismatique et de Sigillographie CLVIII: 39-62.

https://www.academia.edu/2350185/Control_marks_on_Hellenistic_royal_coinages_use_and_evolution_towards_simplification_Revue_belge_de_Numismatique_158_2012_p._39-62
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline RL

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Re: Philip II bronze varieties
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2017, 08:51:00 pm »
Thanks n.igma, I have skimmed the article and will read it in full shortly. Although as you say it isn't directed at Philip II specifically it looks like an interesting overview of the general question of the use of marks on Hellenistic coins.

Peterpil19 - thank you, your efforts haven't been in vein!  The second article you linked to references this work, G. Le Rider, Le monnayage d'argent et d'or de Philippe II frappe en Macédoine de 359 à 294, (1977),  as being the "first and only comprehensive study of the coins of Philip II".

I didn't see it in stock on Amazon or Abebooks but have located a pdf copy of Le Rider's book via google (I won't link to it as it looks like it is still under copyright). As the title suggests it is in French (which I don't read) and I am not overly familiar with the format of academic coin texts so it is difficult to give a cursory overview but it does have a section on monograms (albeit that while bronzes are mentioned the focus seems to be on Philip's silver coins). In the unlikely event that I make sense of it I will let you know.



Offline peterpil19

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Re: Philip II bronze varieties
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 10:44:20 pm »

Peterpil19 - thank you, your efforts haven't been in vein!  The second article you linked to references this work, G. Le Rider, Le monnayage d'argent et d'or de Philippe II frappe en Macédoine de 359 à 294, (1977),  as being the "first and only comprehensive study of the coins of Philip II".

I didn't see it in stock on Amazon or Abebooks but have located a pdf copy of Le Rider's book via google (I won't link to it as it looks like it is still under copyright). As the title suggests it is in French (which I don't read) and I am not overly familiar with the format of academic coin texts so it is difficult to give a cursory overview but it does have a section on monograms (albeit that while bronzes are mentioned the focus seems to be on Philip's silver coins). In the unlikely event that I make sense of it I will let you know.

You are very welcome. Thank you to n.igma also for posting the above link - I will read that too.

The book above covers silver and gold coinage as I understand it. If you are intent on sourcing a physical copy then I will send you a PM.

I am not sure what would be considered the standard reference for the bronze coinage of Philip II should you also be looking for a reference to attribute these types of coins.  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can chime in.

I am using SNG Alpha Bank and SNG Copenhagen to attribute mine, with great success.  I am missing, but am trying to track down, the relevant volume of SNG ANS as I see that listed very frequently on acsearch.info in relation to these coins so presumably ANS has a bigger collection of these coins.

Additionally Altamura in a different thread pointed me towards the folowing ANS museum notes which listed some Philip II bronze coins which I could not see in my references:  A. R. Bellinger, "Philippi in Macedonia" in ANSMN 11 (1964): https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?num=41&u=1&seq=7&view=image&size=100&id=uc1.%24b217979

Peter

 

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