Pautalia: Who is "Ge"?

[OldMoney]

I have a Question for the Pautalian experts.

It refers to this coin type (from Jochen's gallery):
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-12718

In the early edition of Head's Historia Numorum he refers to the large reclining
figure as the Strymon river, a fairly natural assumption. However, in the later,
revised edition, he refers to the figure as "Ge".

HN 1887: "... River Strymon surrounded ...";
HN 1911: "... Ge recumbent beneath a vine and surrounded ...".

Even in Jochen's own description he highlights the problem: "The figure on the
reverse is discussed controversial. Eckhel thought it to be the rivergod Strymon.
Some numismatists assume it to be feminine and call her nymph or Tellus."

I see that most of the online coin-related notes refer to the figure as Strymon.
Others refer to a 'nymph', as Jochen states, and other names. Another similarly
depicted reclining figure is explicitly named as the river god Strymon. Head's
revision of 1911 and the addition of the name "Ge" has caused some confusion.

What is the correct name for this figure, and who is this mysterious "Ge"?

Walter Holt

[curtislclay]

Walter,

Ge is the Greek word for Earth, also occurring as the first syllable of the word Geology!

Curtis

[archivum]

Head's revision of "Strymon" to "Ge" (Latin "Tellus") may suggest the Pautalian design is derived from a "Tellvs Stabil" motif with traditional grounding in Rome (it becomes a Fecvnditas-4 children motif on Julia Domna denarii); for discussion accompanying a rare and spectacular Commodus instance, see http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=102443 (and Pautalia appended for comparison):

[OldMoney]

Walter,

Ge is the Greek word for Earth, also occurring as the first syllable of the word Geology!

Curtis

Thanks Curtis,

I *should* have realised this.
I was aware of Gaia, naturally, but forgot my Greek word-roots.

I did look up my abridged 'Liddell and Scott', but there was no entry
for Ge = Earth, and only succeeded in both doubting and confusing
myself at the same time.

Much appreciated.

Walter

[Jochen]

We have discussed this coin in the German Forum in 2005. Curtis Clay has back then added (I try to translate): "Beautiful, interesting coin! Is the figur really female? But looks in the depiction rather male and the vessel of the well would point to a river god too."

Eckhel has written;: "Non alius est in regno monetario numus, in quo urbs quaepiam agri sui proventus tam canore depraedicat." = "In the region of numismatics there is no other coin on which a city is advertising the products of ist territory so well-sounding." (Curtis Clay)

Best regards

[OldMoney]

Thanks archivum,

I can see - basically - why the comparison may have been made with
Tellus, or Ge. Visually they have a number of similarities. However, I
think that that overlooks the apparent differences which are, IMHO,
crucial to the identification of this figure.

These issues are from two different mints, Rome and Pautalia, and the
reasons for striking and the intended audiences for each are markedly
disparate. Equally with their dates of issue and the rulers under which
they were issued. Important considerations.

The four figures on the Commodus medallion have been identified with
the Four Seasons, whereas the four smaller figures on the Pautalian
piece are specifically identified with Gold, Silver, Grapes and Wheat.
Unlike the four seasons, they are not the personifications of those
objects, but they are representations in some form or another.

Pointing toward a river god, perhaps or even probably the Strymon, is
the presence of the urn from which water flows, a characteristic feature
of most, if not all other *reclining* river gods.

Additionally, the figure associated with Gold appears to be extracting
his Gold from the water which flows from the urn, pointing further to
the figure being a river deity of some identity.

My initial error was in thinking that Ge could have been the name of
another river god, or perhaps a mountain god of some sort. Having
cleared that up via Curtis' post (above) now leads me back to whether
this reclining figure is in fact the Strymon, or are there arguments that
it could be another deity of another name.

Walter Holt

[OldMoney]

We have discussed this coin in the German Forum in 2005. Curtis Clay has back then added (I try to translate): "Beautiful, interesting coin! Is the figur really female? But looks in the depiction rather male and the vessel of the well would point to a river god too."

Eckhel has written;: "Non alius est in regno monetario numus, in quo urbs quaepiam agri sui proventus tam canore depraedicat." = "In the region of numismatics there is no other coin on which a city is advertising the products of its territory so well-sounding." (Curtis Clay)

Best regards

Thanks Jochen,

That's great to know.

Is there a link to that German Forum discussion (if it still exists)?

Do you know of any decent literature on either this particular coin
type, or of Pautalia in general that I should consult?

All the best,

Walter

[archivum]

I agree that Pautalia's "repurposed" figure of Tellus is probably meant to represent Strymon, though the figure is not very obviously masculine, and river-gods typically are. But there are some exceptions and major variations in how they're depicted; see earlier thread https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=27213.msg275661#msg275661.

[Jochen]

Hi Walter!

The title is: "Der Reichtum Thrakiens". The start of the discussion you find here:
http://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11926&p=99357&hilit=Reichtum+reichtum+thrakiens#p99357

As you can read I have found the following names:
Nicolaus Schow 1789 (He was the first who has described this coin)
Eckhel
Sallet
Head
Imhoof-Blumer
Froehner
Ruzicka
But sadly I can't cite their works.

Best regards

[Enodia]

Walter Burkert listed Ge as an alternative form of Gaia.

~ Peter

[OldMoney]

Thanks again to all.

I also found a reference to this refered to in Sestini (see image),
and note that it was used as the frontispiece for Schow's work
(also see image below).

Unfortunately, the pdf of this front page of Schow is rather poor
and lacks sufficient detail for my intended purpose. Does anyone
have a more direct access to this work and who would be able to
send me a clearer, more detailed image of this front page?

This is a fascinating piece, and I am really enjoying the search for
more information and related works.

All the best,

Walter

[Jochen]

Here is the description from Nicolai Schow:

Ant. p. ATT K M ATRHA ANTilNINOc . Caput Caracal- lae laureatum, cum barba & pectore nudo. Ave.p. OTAniAC nATTAAIAC . Femina decumbens , ad umbilicum ufque nuda , cuius capilli nodo * revincti funt ; cubito finiftro urnae , unde aquae promanant , innititur ; s. vitem , cuius racemi t capiti fupereminent , tenet, dextra vero col- liculo vicino , de quo Genius , onus quoddam humeris geftans , defeendere videtur, impofira eft, fupra colliculum inferiptum cft: APTTPOC. Iuxta dextrum feminae brachium Genius , fummo colliculi faftigio infiftens , racemum ante faciem fieminae pendentem decerpit ; a tergo feriptum cft: BOTPT. Aquae ex urna profluenti Genius adfidet , manibus verfus aquam protenfis , a tergo legitur : XPTcOc . In exergo Genius d. falcem meflbriatn , qua fruges demeflurus videtur, gerit; ante ipfum quatuor ariftae , a tergo quinque , cum epi- graphe : CTAXT .

This text is a digital copy made by Google, therefore sum letters are incorrect.

Best regards

[OldMoney]

Thanks Jochen,
Here is the text 'tidied up' a bit:
(there may be some e's and c's that may be mixed up due to the poor quality of the text, but I think I caught almost everything).

Page 6:
Ant. p. AYT K M AYRHΛ ANTΩNINOC. Caput Caracallae laureatum, cum barba & pectore nudo.
Ave.p. OYΛΠIAC ΠAYTAΛIAC. Femina decumbens, ad umbilicum usque nuda, cuius capilli nodo revincti sunt; cubito sinistro urnae, unde aquae promanant, innititur; s. vitem, cuius racemi capiri supereminent, tenet, dextra vero colliculo vicino, de quo Genius, onus quoddam humeris gestans, descendere videtur, imposita est, supra colliculum inscriptum est: APΓYPOC.
Iuxta dextrum feminae brachium Genius, summo colliculi fastigio insistens, racemum ante faciem fieminae pendentem decerpit; a tergo scriptum est: BOTPY. Aquae ex urna profluenti Genius adsidet, manibus versus aquam protensis, a tergo legitur: XPYCOC.
In exergo Genius d. falcem messoriam, qua fruges demessurus videtur, gerit; ante ipsum quatuor aristae, a tergo quinque, cum epigraphe: CTAXY.

There is some additional text relative to this coin on Page 13, which I have transcribed here:

Auri & argenti fodinas in vicinia Pautaliae fuisse, Genii in numo nostro cum epigr.: APΓYPOC & XPYCOC indicant; quod & Strabo lib. VII. pag. 331. testimonio comprobat , dum air:

{The Greek text here was horribly degraded, so I went back to the source and here quote Strabo’s Geography, Book 7, Fragments, 34.}
ὅτι πλεῖστα μέταλλά ἐστι χρυσοῦ ἐν ταῖς Κρηνίσιν, ὅπου νῦν οἱ Φίλιπποι πόλις ἵδρυται, πλησίον τοῦ Παγγαίου ὄρους: καὶ αὐτὸ δὲ τὸ Παγγαῖον ὄρος χρυσεῖα καὶ ἀργυρεῖα ἔχει μέταλλα καὶ ἡ πέραν καὶ ἡ ἐντὸς τοῦ Στρυμόνος ποταμοῦ μέχρι Παιονίας: φασὶ δὲ καὶ τοὺς τὴν Παιονίαν γῆν ἀροῦντας εὑρίσκειν χρυσοῦ τινα μόρια. {clean text via Perseus}

Iuxta Crenidas prope Pangaeum montem, ubi bodie urbs Philippi sita est, quam plurimae sunt auri fodinae; ipse etiam Pangaeus aureas & argenteas habet fodinas, regioque extra & intra Strymonem fluvium sita ad Paeoniam usque; narrant quoque, Paeoniae incolas, dum terram aratre versant, quasdam auri particulas invenire.

{34 1 There are very many gold mines in Crenides, where the city Philippi⁵⁴¹ now is situated, near Mt. Pangaeum.⁵⁴² And Mt. Pangaeum as well has gold and silver mines, as also the country across, and the country this side, the Strymon River as far as Paeonia. And it is further said that the people who plough the Paeonian land find nuggets of gold.} (trans. via Lacus Curtius)

Solita vini culturae frugumque abundantiae symbola sunt vitis & aristae; memorabile vero est, hisce symbolis verba quoque adiungi ipsam rerum imaginem explicantia: BOTPY & CTAXY.

I hope this assists others as it has assisted me.
All the best,

Walter

[OldMoney]

Further in relation to this subject, I tried seeking out an e-copy of
Revue Numismatique 1843, for an article by Du Mersan. However,
the Google book of this publication has the extraordinary error of
having pages in this order: 12, 13, 16, 15, 18, 19, 20, etc. There is
no page 14 nor page 17, and the others are out of order! Bizarre.

Apparently page 17 has the title of Du Mersan's article, and I need
that to complete my reference material. Do you know of any other
pdf copies of this particular work, or does anyone have the facility
to post a copy of that particular page to this thread? I have tried a
number of different searches, but to no avail. Can you help?

Walter Holt
Sydney, Australia

[Pekka K]

I found this:

https://books.google.fi/books?id=M2smAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA5&hl=fi&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

Pekka K

[OldMoney]

Excellent!
Thanks Pekka.
I never thought to search Finnish Google. Hehe

Walter

[Altamura]

The best source for old numbers of Revue Numismatique usually is the École nationale des chartes in Paris: http://bibnum.enc.sorbonne.fr/items/show/12032
By clicking on the title page you get a pdf file in good quality which is even "searchable"  .

Regards

Altamura

[OldMoney]

That's a great resource Altamura, thank you.

On another related matter, how best does one reference Schow's
work in a typical Bibliography?

The full title appears thus:
Epistola Nicolai Schow Ad Eminentiss. Et Reverendiss. Principem
Stephanum Borgiam S. R. E. Cardinalem Presbyterum In Qua Numus
Ulpiae Pautaliae Ineditus Ex Museo Borgiano Velitris Illustratur
(Fulgonius, 1789).

See the cover (image attached).

Is there a "standard" format for these early works?

Walter

[Altamura]

I don't know how it has to be cited correctly, but you can look how others do it:
http://www.urbis-libnet.org/vufind/Record/British%20School%20at%20Rome.BSR89785/Description
If you click on "Cite this" on the left side then you get proposals for different citing styles  .

Regards

Altamura

[OldMoney]

I see what you mean, especially with the last line reading:
"Warning: These citations may not always be 100% accurate."

Thanks,

Walter

[OldMoney]

I have another question related to this city, and to this coin.

Wanting to accurately describe the four smaller figures, I have noted that
they have been variously referred to as 'erotes', 'cherubs', boys (Knaben),
children, Genii, or simply "small figures".

Erotes and Chreubs are meant to be winged, so I expect that rules them
out; I am not sure the term 'Genius' is the best term, given the size and
apparent youth of the figures, nor is Lares. What about Daemones?

Children, boys, or even "small figures" seem most appropriate, however I
would prefer to use a more accurate term, if that is at all possible.

Any further thoughts or additional contributions? All welcomed!

Walter

[OldMoney]

Bump. Any suggestions regarding the above?

Walter

[Roma_Orbis]

This typical river scene matches the Hadrian sestertius with Nilus, but it seems a common representation of the times, as famous statuary groups demonstrate, such as Nilus in the Vatican museum (see below) and Tiber in the Louvre.
It is interesting to note that the 16 children around the Nlius river-god statue are representing the 16 cubits of water by which the Nile rises for its annual flood. The children around Tellus represent the 4 seasons. I would say children/boys are personification of the prosperity characteristics of the river, and erotes/cherubs/putti are certainly not meant here, indeed lacking wings. Anyway they seem to be closely related to cherubs as they're involved in similar activities as represented in Roman art (sculpture, paintings, gem engravings, ...).

Jérôme