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Author Topic: A Cherronesos Question  (Read 1752 times)

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Offline Allan D2

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A Cherronesos Question
« on: February 28, 2017, 04:46:24 pm »
A preemptive caveat: I have only started actively collecting somewhat recently, so my apologies if the answer to this should be obvious. As with any field, it takes some time to know what you don't know.

Anyways, I was curious if there was any information on the significance or meaning of the reverse symbols and monograms on the silver coinage from Cherronesos, Thrace.

Has anyone published a study of these, particularly their significance?
They reminded me of the countermark system seen on Tempo Tsuho coins from 19th c Japan, and so I was wondering if perhaps they served a similar purpose. Or even if their purpose had been explored as of yet.

Any help, direction, or insights would be greatly appreciated.

All the best,
ABD



p.s.s - I have university database access, so I should be able to track down any journal references that may be relevant to this.
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Offline Molinari

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2017, 06:01:48 pm »
For some reason I think Barry Murphy did a study on these but I do not know if it was ever published or put online.  Maybe I'm confusing him with someone else.  In any case, I would start with the ANS library catalog by searching for just "Cherronesos" and go from there.

http://donum.numismatics.org/

It would certainly be a neat project to at least catalog the varieties, if it hasn't been done.  Check also the commentary for BMC Thrace.

Offline n.igma

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2017, 06:27:19 pm »
http://oldestcoins.reidgold.com/cherronesos.html
 
   .......  Another attractive feature of these coins is the plethora of reverse symbols, which include but aren't limited to a pellet, cicada, scorpion, tunny fish, flower, torch, trowel, ram's head, caduceus, rooster, bee, wine leaf, bucranium, conch shell, scallop shell, dot in a circle, boar head, pileus, plow, sunburst, club, bow, and helmet.

David Van Meter in his 1990 book Collecting Greek Coins described Cherronesos hemidrachms as lacking in artistic merit, but clearly aesthetics in situations like this is subjective and a matter of judgment.

The reference with the most extensive catalog of Cherronesos hemidrachm varities is the 1923-1929 (reprinted in 1979) three-volume Catalogue of the McClean Collection of Greek Coins by S.W. Grose (McClean, also referred to as Grose), with 64 specimens illustrated and 71 listed. BMC Thrace, Weber, and SNG Cop. also cover these coins extensively. The specimen above wasn't in any of them, though it was in SNG Berry. Barry Murphy has an excellent page attributing these coins according to their reverse symbols......
http://bpmurphy.ancients.info/chersonese/Cherronesos.htm
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline djmacdo

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2017, 06:59:52 pm »
I believe it is generally thought that the symbols and monograms represent the responsible issuing authorities.  At most mints symbols are the earliest way of identifying issues, then monograms, and finally officials names are spelled out--though there are exceptions to this generalization.  The issue in question seems to have come just when the monograms were beginning to replace symbols and did not last to the final phase.

Offline Allan D2

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 10:26:27 pm »
That is essentially what I was wondering.

I had a thought that the symbols and / or symbols could be connected to individual sites (cities, villages) within the Cherronese, with the obverse Lion as the unifying element for the whole group.

Of course I could also be way off the mark with this idea. But if it was possible I had thought about doing a little paper on the subject.
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Offline Altamura

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2017, 02:43:49 am »
About 30 specimens of these coins are shown in the Corpus Nummorum Thracorum online: http://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/coins.php?id=&mints=62=&range=45

Some articles about the Thracian Chersonese have been written by Julia Tzvetkova: https://uni-sofia.academia.edu/JuliaTzvetkova
but up to now no systematic analysis of these hemidrachms :-\.

Regards

Altamura

Offline djmacdo

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2017, 11:08:52 am »
Alan,

That is an interesting idea, but I do not think that there is a shred of proof to support it.  I too have from time to time some great ideas or what seem to me at least to be great ideas, but an idea that cannot be shown to be right or dismissed as wrong by some object standard of proof is, well, useless -- and it is generally acknowledged that it is the responsibility of anyone proposing an idea to provide some proof that it is likely to be correct.  Maybe you have something of which I am not aware, but without such I think you would find the going difficult.   I hope I do not sound too negative.

Mac

Offline Allan D2

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2017, 11:38:23 am »
djmacdo: That is also what I was thinking, which is why I was asking here. I had no luck finding anything really leaning in that direction, so it was either that nobody had bothered to pursue it, or it was not possible to prove.

My main area of research is in funerary iconography of Roman craftsmen, and you'd be surprised how many seemingly obvious topics and conclusions have not been pursued or even raised within the literature.

So, it is quite likely that the idea is a bit too ambitious and potentially unprovable. Although it may make an interesting side project to see if there is anything in the archaeological record that may provide some hints in this direction.

On a side note, I've always been fascinated by the random collection of animals and things on the reverse of these coins. They are almost begging to be explored. They're just so weird (to me anyways).
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Offline n.igma

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2017, 12:43:57 am »
I believe it is generally thought that the symbols and monograms represent the responsible issuing authorities.  At most mints symbols are the earliest way of identifying issues, then monograms, and finally officials names are spelled out--though there are exceptions to this generalization.  The issue in question seems to have come just when the monograms were beginning to replace symbols and did not last to the final phase.

Monograms, symbols, and dot controls occur simultaneously on these hemidrachm issues. The three together on a single coin is not infrequent. It is unlikely that all these symbols represent discrete issuing authorities or connections to individual cities as suggest by Alan. Rather, it is likely that at least one and probably two are secondary controls used for internal accounting and reconciliation in the mint.

For example if multiple striking teams or anvils were in operation the output of each would need to be identified and reconciled with the initial silver volume allocated to each team. Similarly batches of silver were probably designated to be coined and reconciliation of the total struck weight with the initial silver weight would require that coins be allocated to the the correct batch at the final weigh in.

Symbols and even dots/globules/pellets could serve to identify source silver and striking team output in a multi anvil production environment.  Many permutations are possible of the accounting and reconciliation need and and how it can be most effectively and efficiently done in the mint environment.

The key would have been to clearly identify and then match inputs and outputs to ensure that theft and fraud was minimized in the production process - discrete symbols and their matching to inputs and outputs are an effective way of doing this.

Sequence the dies, and decipher the sequence of monograms and symbols and you can unravel some of the detail of the operation of the mint. Mind you this is no small task.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2017, 06:46:19 am »

Offline Allan D2

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2017, 11:56:22 am »
Meepzorp - That's rather ironic. Those are exactly the 2 symbols that I'm currently on the hunt for. Well, those and the bee.

I currently have a few monogram + pellet combination issues, and a fish en route at present. (I'm currently working out how to get some decent photos so I can put up a little gallery here).

That said, the more I look into this coinage, the more it seems likely that n.igma is more on the right track than I was. Although it still seems a possibility. At any rate, even disproving my idea could potentially yield some interesting info.

I am somewhat surprised that they have not yet received a comprehensive analysis or study. It just seems like one of those things that there would be a dedicated German catalogue of.

Sometimes, I find the things that haven't been studied and the reasons why are more fascinating than the things that have been.

Thanks for the insights so far though, I'm really enjoying this discussion.
All the best,
Allan

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Offline bpmurphy

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2017, 12:08:11 pm »
Just a note on my page This was something I started back in 2004 or 2005 and haven't updated since. At some point I couldn't remember my password to the pages. Over the years I had collected photos of perhaps 50 new varieties, and I've lost track of those photos at this point as well. They are somewhere on an old computer. If someone ever wants to continue this project, feel free to use my original work.

Barry Murphy

Offline Allan D2

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2017, 01:11:59 pm »
Thanks for that Barry.

I have perused your page several times, though admittedly I've largely been using it as an envious shopping wish list of sorts.

It seems that this coinage has unintentionally become my main collecting interest. Though I would be hard pressed to say why exactly. I'm just fascinated by them for some reason.


And as a side note: I'm also quite fascinated by the symbols / things that are not depicted on these coins. It's just such an odd series.

Once again, thanks for indulging me so far everyone. It's greatly appreciated. (my department is largely made up of philologists, so they really don't share my interests in this regard)

All the best,
Allan
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Offline djmacdo

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Re: A Cherronesos Question
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2017, 08:12:45 am »
n.igma,

You make interesting and convincing observations.  It immediately brought to my mind the Athenian New Style tetradrachms where magistrate's symbols and then on later issues names were combined with letters thought to represent sources of silver.


 

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