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Author Topic: A Rare Julia Titi  (Read 2158 times)

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Offline David Atherton

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A Rare Julia Titi
« on: February 15, 2017, 11:10:29 pm »
I finally acquired my first Julia Titi! https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-135039

I've been collecting Flavian coins for nearly 14 years, I don't know why it took so long!

A quick biographical note about Julia. She was the daughter of Titus and was granted the title Augusta sometime in 80 or 81. Coins were issued in her name bearing the new title. After Titus' death she lived with her uncle Domitian at the imperial residence. The ancient sources are quick to malign her reputation in the name of smearing Domitian. It is said she had an ongoing affair with Domitian and became pregnant. She then was forced by Domitian to abort the baby and died during the attempted abortion sometime in 90 or 91. The Flavian historian Brian Jones has called the supposed affair between Domitian and his niece Julia (some ten or eleven years his junior) and the subsequent forced abortion which killed her as "implausible" and "nonsense".

Further he wrote "Scholars seem not to have stressed one of the most significant factors in assessing the rumour's accuracy - Martial's epigram 6.3, written not long after Julia's death and deification. In it, he expresses the hope that Domitian will produce a son, implies that the baby's name will be Julius (6.3.1) and states that (the now deified) Julia will be able to watch over him (6.3.5). Martial was neither a hero or a fool. Had there been the slightest hint of an affair between emperor and niece, he would hardly have written those lines; had Julia's recent death been caused by an abortion forced on her by Domitian, would Martial have so far neglected the bounds of 'safe criticism' and common sense as to humiliate Domitia publicly, urging her to become pregnant, to give the child a name reminiscent of her husband's mistress and finally to remember that same mistress, now dead and deified (thanks to her husband), would be able to protect the child?"

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: A Rare Julia Titi
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2017, 12:31:17 am »
You mean I had a Julia Titi before you? How was that possible!?!?!  ;D

Great coin David, congrats!


I couldn't agree more with Brian Jones.  I think a lot of these stories of incest and debauchery are written to vilify the previous regime and distance themselves from it.  Curious how those who die without heirs are always scoundrels (Caligula, Nero, Domitian) and those who die with chosen heirs saints (Claudius, Vespasian, TitusNerva...).  It's an interesting theory many new historians are presenting including Mary Beard.  It really changes the way we look at these "tyrants".

Offline David Atherton

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Re: A Rare Julia Titi
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2017, 12:50:16 am »
You mean I had a Julia Titi before you? How was that possible!?!?!  ;D

Great coin David, congrats!


I couldn't agree more with Brian Jones.  I think a lot of these stories of incest and debauchery are written to vilify the previous regime and distance themselves from it.  Curious how those who die without heirs are always scoundrels (Caligula, Nero, Domitian) and those who die with chosen heirs saints (Claudius, Vespasian, TitusNerva...).  It's an interesting theory many new historians are presenting including Mary Beard.  It really changes the way we look at these "tyrants".

Thanks Jay! I really took my time acquiring one! LOL

Beard, Jones, et al. have the right approach - looking at traditional assumptions and evidence with a critical eye. Steve Mason has recently published a history of the Jewish War, in it he argues Josephus was not a Flavian hack writing propaganda for the new regime. But, I digress ...

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Re: A Rare Julia Titi
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2017, 01:17:52 am »
Great coin David .
 Congratulation..

 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
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Offline gordian_guy

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Re: A Rare Julia Titi
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2017, 10:08:00 am »


Outstanding David! Glad you have finally acquired one for your collection...

c.rhodes

Offline David Atherton

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Re: A Rare Julia Titi
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2017, 06:35:11 pm »
Thank you everyone for the kind comments. Now my collection is no longer a 'boys only club'!

Offline SC

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Re: A Rare Julia Titi
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2017, 08:30:11 pm »
Very neat, but the scariest thing of all is how that looks like Domitian in drag!

There are coins of Maximinus Thrax's wife where they clearly just engraved him with different hair but I had not noticed it with Titi before.

I have a Titi As but it portrays he more like a young girl.

Shawn
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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Randygeki(h2)

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Re: A Rare Julia Titi
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2017, 03:42:03 am »
I was tempted to get this myself. Great coin!

Offline gallienus1

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Re: A Rare Julia Titi
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2017, 05:37:18 am »
A super addition David, both rare and interesting.

The denari of Julia Titi do have a very sexualized image of Venus on the reverse. Usually a woman in the imperial household would have a feminine attribute on the reverse of their coins such as Vesta or Fecunditas, and if Venus was chosen the pose would be relatively modest. Sometimes imperial women had Venus in this more suggestive pose, but I think not unduly noticed because they were either older women, or longer lived so that the type was only one design among many others.

Julia Titi did not live long and so was young when her coins were struck. Her short life as an imperial personality means there are relatively few coins struck for her and so relatively few reverse types. This makes her “suggestive Venus” a lot more noticeable, not only to us but surely to the Roman people at the time.

Could it be that this very coin that is the origin of the notion that she was sexually available like the Venus on her coins?  It is well known that people at the time paid close attention to the iconography of the coins they handled on a daily basis.

Poor Julia, I think she and her uncle may have had their reputations damaged to this day over the misunderstanding of a coin reverse.

Best regards,
Steve

Offline David Atherton

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Re: A Rare Julia Titi
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2017, 08:11:27 am »
Very neat, but the scariest thing of all is how that looks like Domitian in drag!

There are coins of Maximinus Thrax's wife where they clearly just engraved him with different hair but I had not noticed it with Titi before.

I have a Titi As but it portrays he more like a young girl.

Shawn

I think we would have to go back to Nero's reign to find the previous instance when the Rome mint engravers were producing feminine portraits. Perhaps that can explain their not so successful attempts on the denarii for Julia?

Offline David Atherton

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Re: A Rare Julia Titi
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2017, 08:16:29 am »
Quote from: gallienus1 on February 17, 2017, 05:37:18 am
A super addition David, both rare and interesting.

The denari of Julia Titi do have a very sexualized image of Venus on the reverse. Usually a woman in the imperial household would have a feminine attribute on the reverse of their coins such as Vesta or Fecunditas, and if Venus was chosen the pose would be relatively modest. Sometimes imperial women had Venus in this more suggestive pose, but I think not unduly noticed because they were either older women, or longer lived so that the type was only one design among many others.

Julia Titi did not live long and so was young when her coins were struck. Her short life as an imperial personality means there are relatively few coins struck for her and so relatively few reverse types. This makes her “suggestive Venus” a lot more noticeable, not only to us but surely to the Roman people at the time.

Could it be that this very coin that is the origin of the notion that she was sexually available like the Venus on her coins?  It is well known that people at the time paid close attention to the iconography of the coins they handled on a daily basis.

Poor Julia, I think she and her uncle may have had their reputations damaged to this day over the misunderstanding of a coin reverse.

Best regards,
Steve


Interesting observations! Although, the ancients regarded nudity in a much more relaxed and non sexual way than we do. Take for example the phallus' scattered all over Pompeii (and probably every Roman city and town) - we see a willy, to the Romans it was a sign of good luck, fertility, and warding off the evil eye.

And not to mention the same reverse was struck for Titus too!

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: A Rare Julia Titi
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2017, 08:17:59 am »
Very neat, but the scariest thing of all is how that looks like Domitian in drag!

There are coins of Maximinus Thrax's wife where they clearly just engraved him with different hair but I had not noticed it with Titi before.

I have a Titi As but it portrays he more like a young girl.

Shawn

I think we would have to go back to Nero's reign to find the previous instance when the Rome mint engravers were producing feminine portraits. Perhaps that can explain their not so successful attempts on the denarii for Julia?

Well Titus looked very much like his dad, maybe Vespasians genes were strong and she just looked like that  8)

 

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