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Author Topic: Photo lighting  (Read 23979 times)

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Online quadrans

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2017, 03:42:02 pm »
When I travel, I used this set up to make some coin photo...:)

 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2017, 04:04:21 pm »
And this is the photo after immediately (more smaller magnification than the original), and after to using black background..:)

Regards
 Q.
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Offline Molinari

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2017, 04:21:00 pm »
Good, but still lacking the sharpness I want, like this one. Just the far right of each side is slightly blurry.  This is with the macro.

The second is sharp too, regular iPhone lens, and exactly what I want.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2017, 04:22:55 pm »
Meep I'm having success with an iPhone mount (not tripod) that is moveable but cuts down on the jitters that blur the pics.

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2017, 04:31:28 pm »
Hi Nick,

It's OK I used this without any manipulation and only if I travel and I have with me only my iPhone , and if I want to document some interesting coin which one not mine .

 Any othe cases I used my home set-up---

:)

 Q.

p.s.

I try to show is useful easily any circumstances..

of course if you want to more help any kind of software help you... like Photoshop or GIMP or.. ...

 Q.

 That picture above to click and to show only 2 minute..

Q.
All the Best :), Joe
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Offline Molinari

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2017, 04:59:55 pm »
Oh I have no doubt about the quality of your photos!  😄 I use gimp and photoshop but find the app FrameMagic just as useful for my purposes.

I'm at the point now where I'm considering buying a camera vs reshooting the collection with the iPhone.

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2017, 05:03:06 pm »
It's OK Nick.. +++

A good camera is very useful,

To the iPhone is always on hand :)

 Q.  :)
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Offline peterpil19

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2017, 09:10:01 pm »
Will a regular sized camera make it easier to get the entire coin perfectly focused?  I'm having trouble there.  Some spots are crystal clear while others are a tad blurry.  See attached pic.  Coin is about 8mm and I used a clip-on macro lens.

What you have is a "Depth of field" problem.  Your plane of focus is very shallow so only the top sliver of the coin is in focus.  If you have a camera that lets you increase the aperture of your lens (setting it to a larger number e.g. f/4 to 5.6) it will increase what appears to be in focus.

Hi,
It's the other way around, a lower f-stop = higher aperture.
But the logic is correct - that is the issue with the photos not being in focus.

Peter

Offline Randygeki(h2)

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2017, 11:43:38 pm »
Thats a neat set up

Offline Callimachus

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2017, 12:26:53 am »
There seems to be a lot of confused and contradictory information floating around here.

"And you should angle the iPhone with respect to the coin. Don't hold it parallel to the coin."  On the contrary - the camera should always be exactly parallel to the coin. I have a small level about 2 inches across to place across the back of my camera to make sure the camera is exactly level when I take pictures of my coins. I also make sure the surface where the coin is to be placed is exactly level. Thus the camera and the coin surface will be parallel.  When the camera is not parallel to the coin, one side of the coin will be blurry.  And a round flan will look oval.

About apertures: The larger the "hole" of the lense, the smaller the aperture number.  An F2 aperture is larger than an F4 or F8 aperture. (I know it doesn't make sense: a larger lense "hole" has a smaller  number.)   To increase depth of field, the lense must make a smaller "hole" -- ie you must set the "F number" to a bigger number.  A smaller lense "hole" lets in less light, but it increases depth of field.  If you have a thick coin or one with high relief, increasing the depth of field this way may help.  Mollinari is correct when he says "setting it to a larger number e.g. f/4 to 5.6 it will increase what appears to be in focus."

Lenses these days commonly have distortion around the edges, either showing as things being blurry, or straight lines being curved. You can avoid this to some extent by placing your coin at the center of the picture, and not having it go all the way to any edge of the viewfinder. You'll have to crop away the excess blank space to have a photo of just your coin, but that is better than a photo of a small coin on an immense background. If you have your camera set to a larger size picture, then when you crop away all that excess background, the remaining coin picture will still be relatively large.  They do make high quality lenses where the distortion at the edges is minimized, but they are very expensive and not to be found in the regular day to day cameras people usually have.

Of course, if you get your camera too close to your coin, it will never get in focus. especially with the auto-focus found on today's cameras and phones. You might want to do a test series of photos to determine just how close you can get before it will not focus any more. If your camera has a macro setting, be sure and experiment around with that.

I sometimes miss my old camera where I could use manual focus if I wished, and I could set the aperture however I wanted. It even had a depth-of-field button to press so I could see exactly the depth of field produced by my manual settings or the automatic settings if I had it set in that mode. Unfortunately, it required film . . .

Below I've attached two photos of the same coin that illustrate what I've been talking about here.  The photo on the left side was take "straight on" -- camera and coin were parallel. Notice the round flan. The photo on the right was taken with the coin tilted slightly to try to pick up a bit more surface reflection. Notice the flan is not round, and the top of the coin above NSTA is blurry. This is due to the camera and coin not being in parallel planes. Increasing depth of field may have helped a bit.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2017, 01:53:49 pm »
The reason you usually see f/2 or f/4 is that the number is a ratio of the focal length of the lens to the working aperture or diameter of the hole that lets light through.  A simple lens with 100mm focal length has a 50mm hole at f/2 and a 25mm hole at f/4.  It gets a bit more complex to measure when the lens is a complex stack of elements rather than one lens but it should make sense that a hole 1/2 the diameter of the length would let in more light than one with a hole 1/4 that same length.  Since the f is a constant we just forget that part and look at the 2 or 4 which is engraved on the camera.

Photo optics is a very complex subject and users don't need to know how it is all done.  Just don't fight the problem.  When we shoot things very close we encounter problems that make little trouble for landscape photographers.  There are things that can be done to minimize the problems and make depth of field and other physical laws your friend rather than your enemy.  These techniques have really blossomed in the age of digital photography.  We can't break the laws of physics but there are ways they can be bribed.  A favorite of mine is the focus stack where you tak several pictures with the focus point in a different point for each one and then tell the computer to compare every part of each image and merge them into one using only the sharpest parts of each original.  Cheating? Yes, and proud of it!



Coin photography is just another side hobby available to each of us.  Some of you clean coins; some buy low and sell high; others figure out how various issues relate to each other.  Some of us like to take pictures better than necessary to sell the coin on eBay.

Offline Nemonater

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2017, 02:18:53 pm »
Picture A shot at f 3.5     

Picture B shot at f 10

All post processing exactly the same.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2017, 06:33:44 pm »
There seems to be a lot of confused and contradictory information floating around here.

"And you should angle the iPhone with respect to the coin. Don't hold it parallel to the coin."  On the contrary - the camera should always be exactly parallel to the coin. I have a small level about 2 inches across to place across the back of my camera to make sure the camera is exactly level when I take pictures of my coins. I also make sure the surface where the coin is to be placed is exactly level. Thus the camera and the coin surface will be parallel.  When the camera is not parallel to the coin, one side of the coin will be blurry.  And a round flan will look oval.

Below I've attached two photos of the same coin that illustrate what I've been talking about here.  The photo on the left side was take "straight on" -- camera and coin were parallel. Notice the round flan. The photo on the right was taken with the coin tilted slightly to try to pick up a bit more surface reflection. Notice the flan is not round, and the top of the coin above NSTA is blurry. This is due to the camera and coin not being in parallel planes. Increasing depth of field may have helped a bit.

Hi Calli,

What you are stating may be true for a camera. I've never used a digital camera to take a photo of a coin. But it is certainly not true for an iPhone.

I've shot literally thousands upon thousands of coin photos with an old iPhone 4. When I hold the iPhone parallel to the coin, the photo comes out blurry. When I hold the iPhone at a 5-20 degree angle to the coin (along both the X-axis and Y-axis), the photo comes out much sharper and crisper. I don't know why this is true. It defies logic. But it is true. At least, it is in my case. Maybe it has something to do with the way the lens is mounted in an iPhone 4?

Do my coin photos look oval? I don't think so.

Meepzorp

Offline peterpil19

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2017, 05:35:21 am »
Quote from: Meepzorp on February 19, 2017, 06:33:44 pm

Do my coin photos look oval? I don't think so.


Hi Meepzorp,

I don't think anyone is questioning the quality of your photos - you take great photos!

The fact that you and others here have worked out how to use your iphones to take photos still astounds me. All I got was blur when I tried using an iphone 6. Even my blackberry (yes I'm still using one) did a better job ;D

You might consider putting together a guide for taking photos using cameras on your phone.

Peter

Offline Callimachus

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2017, 11:51:10 am »
The principles of optics work the same whether the lense is mounted in a camera or an iPhone, film or digital.  

Meepzorp may be on the right track when he says "Maybe it has something to do with the way the lens is mounted in an iPhone 4?"

Offline Frank M

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2017, 04:53:22 pm »
I orient mine for flat tabletop shooting. A horizontal setup makes it more comfortable to shoot (IMO).

The lighting diagram doesn't show scale well, but I shoot with a Canon 5D3 using a Canon 100mm Macro f/2.8. I have a Canon 430EXii off camera left with a bounce card so all the light doesn't spill away from the coin. The backdrop looks huge in this, but is just a bottle of isopropyl with a sheet of construction paper taped to it. The coin is on top of a rubber jewelers anvil. The coins are proper up with kneadable rubber, but I hear good things about mounting wax. It is triggered with pocket wizards, but I am switching to cables to save the batteries. A flash on the camera could work as a trigger as well.

I ordered a few foam blocks today to make the set up easier to swap around differently sized coins. This should also be more versatile and manipulatable. It might be cool to shoot some of the more reflective silver coins with red or other color paper around them to make them glow.

Another way to achieve a black background is to apply the inverse square law. Basically, light falls off at an exponential rate (right, math people?). So you can make your shots go to black by just having nothing behind them (and no obvious light). Imagine how a disposable camera photo looks  if you take a picture with flash, at night, outside. Really tightening down your aperture is a must to take advantage of this property of light.

I am getting my best results  ISO 320 - f/22 - 1/160th. The 430EXii is set at 1/4 power but I edged it up and down a bit.

The big issue will be how close the flash and bounce card are to the coin. Moving that around by just a few inches makes a huge difference, because of the inverse square law mentioned above.

Reflective, colored glass surfaces could be fun to play with too.

Also included are a few I shot last night with the set up I am tweaking.

Offline Frank M

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2017, 05:04:09 pm »
Here is a photo of what my set up looks like in real life.

EDIT: I set this up just to demonstrate. In practice, I put the bounce card on the opposite side of the flash when shooting.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2017, 07:18:35 pm »
The coin looks great but I don't understand what you're talking about with the background.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2017, 07:22:43 pm »
I must say I am glad to see someone using a full frame camera (one better than my mkII) but I am no fan of flash for coin photography.  Continuous light makes it a lot easier to preview and control where the glares fall.  I do not like large areas of blank white which are easy to get on shiny surfaces with flash.  I also believe the fighting gravity to avoid shooting down is more trouble than it is worth.  Manual exposure with continuous lights is also easier to get to match exposures for two sides of the coin.

One downside of a 24x36mm sensor is that many coins I shoot are considerably smaller than 24mm so you end up wasting more of the sensor advantage.  I'm not suggesting shooting with no slop room around but the price of a set of extension tubes allows shooting smaller coins with ease.  You can get carried away.  The Syracuse hexas below used 5 extension tubes from two sets but still had a lot of slop around the 6mm coin.

I usually use f/11 with that lens.  Sharpness falls off at higher apertures.  I use focus stack software for coins that are too deep for f/11 but even the hexas here was ok with one shot per side because it is not high relief.

Thanks for sharing the rig.

Below:
Syracuse AR hexas
Nero AE dupondius
Julia Domna billon tetradrachm

All with daylight balance LED lights

Offline Frank M

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2017, 08:05:40 pm »
Good point about going above f/11. I'd forgotten about that, diffraction? Thanks!

I don't really have the space to set up a top down shooting situation where I am, not if I want to leave it up. I need a workshop/studio!

I was wondering about people's experience with extension tubes. I have only used one once before on some product photos that had to be blown up to wrap some trucks.

There is a lot of wasted real estate on the sensor. But, not if I get the Fuji GFX 50S! I have been eyeing it. My 5D3 is on it's last legs and the newer 5D models aren't doing it for me.

Your point about continuous light is well made. I am enjoying playing around with the flashes, just because it's fun. I don't do a lot of macro work professionally. I may try one with some kind of diffusor between the flash and the coin, maybe a gauze panel or something. It is somewhat of a space issue for me, and I also am trying to resist the urge to buy more specialized gadgets.

I don't know that I mind a little edge being blown out or a little glare for drama, but i take your point. Left to my own devices, I'd probably over do it. I was considering setting up a rim light of some kind, just to give you an idea...

I have some continuous lights that I bought for headshots but didn't end up liking very much. I might dig one of those out and give it a try.

Thanks!

Offline Frank M

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2017, 08:18:57 pm »
Great looking photos, by the way!

The coin looks great but I don't understand what you're talking about with the background.

Thanks! In short, light fall off rapidly from its source. If you get the flash/light really close to the subject and there isn't anything with a few feet of the backdrop, you should be able to simulate blackness. A reflective surface could mess this up. I was offering it as a possibility, I am not sure it would be the easiest or best way to get the effect.

Offline peterpil19

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2017, 12:49:19 am »
Hi,

On the subject of lighting, can I ask for your frank opinions on 3 different lighting set ups.

1. I can set up light so that it does not fall directly onto the coin and instead faces slightly away from the coin - refer photo of Octalia Severa denarius.

2. Or I can set up the light so that it falls (from a reasonable distance) directly onto the coin - refer photo of Domitian denarius.

3. Another technique I have often used in the past is to bring the head of the desk-lamp almost entirely down to the level of the coin, parallel to the ground, but to the left of the coin, so light emanates from the side but never directly onto the face of the coin - refer photo of Pamphylia, Aspendos stater.

The difference between the photos is that 2 is reflective/shiny, more like a silver coin would look in hand, whereas 1 and 3 sport more of a matte-like surface.


Do any of you have a strict view about how you set up the light and whether you prefer matte-like surfaces or more reflective/shiny surfaces?

I have found it easier to produce a much sharper image with technique 2.

Peter

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2017, 07:20:29 am »
Hi,

The difference between the photos is that 2 is reflective/shiny, more like a silver coin would look in hand, whereas 1 and 3 sport more of a matte-like surface.


Do any of you have a strict view about how you set up the light and whether you prefer matte-like surfaces or more reflective/shiny surfaces?

I have found it easier to produce a much sharper image with technique 2.

Peter

The closest I come to a 'strict' rule is to keep areas of absolute white (FFFFFF) and absolute black (000000) except for the background as small as possible.  Large areas of blanked detail of either extreme make poor photos.  'Shiny' means blanked highlights so I prefer matte.   That said, I prefer your Domitian photo.  The 'sharpness' gained by adding contrast is fake sharpness.  There is more detail in a photo with smooth or less abrupt transitions from dark to light.

Offline peterpil19

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2017, 04:03:51 am »
Thanks Doug,

I will take more photos with same / similar lighting setup as the Domitian and post here for comment.

Peter

Offline peterpil19

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Re: Photo lighting
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2017, 07:14:23 am »
Hi,

I have taken a series of photos using 1) light from desk-lamp directly overhead; 2) light shining at close to 90 degree angle to edge of coin i.e. same as holding coin under light with it facing towards you instead of facing the light.

I would appreciate your views on which lighting set up results in a better photo.
The photos on the left use lighting set-up 1) above and the the photos on the right use lighting set-up 2) which is a far more indirect light source.

Historically I have taken most of my photos using lighting-setup 2) or similar.
However the Domitian I posted earlier which Doug commented was the better of my earlier photos, uses 1).

The Larissa drachm I have also attached uses 1).

My preliminary view is that 1) is better for silver coins; and 2) is better for bronze coins.

Peter




 

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