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Author Topic: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?  (Read 2865 times)

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Offline jvrnz

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Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:30:27 pm »
Happy New Year to all. I have recently acquired a Republican denarius (Crawford 297/1a; Sydenham 563) - picture attached.
In researching this coin, no-one seems to know what the symbolism of the rat is. The coin apparently relates the public games with horse racing, but why the rat??
I would appreciate any thoughts on this & thanks in advance. Also, apologies in advance if this post doesn't conform in any way (I have been absent from this forum for a while after unintentionally upsetting some with my last thread).
Cheers.

Offline v-drome

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 11:34:24 pm »
Could be a rat or mouse?  One of many attributes of Apollo

Offline jvrnz

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2017, 02:43:09 am »
From Wikipedia: Animals sacred to Apollo included wolves, dolphins, roe deer, swans, cicadas (symbolizing music and song), hawks, ravens, crows, snakes (referencing Apollo's function as the god of prophecy), mice and griffins, mythical eagle–lion hybrids of Eastern origin.
So, if it is a mouse (not a rat), could be associated with Apollo; but why is that relevant to this type?
I'm afraid I'm still confused!

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2017, 01:30:56 pm »
Crawford couldn't figure out what the rat/mouse might mean.

There are many questions about ancient coins that we simply do not have the knowledge or resources to answer. It's best in such cases to frankly admit our ignorance!
Curtis Clay

Offline jvrnz

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2017, 04:00:10 pm »
Thanks Curtis. I'm always surprised we know (or think we know!) as much about ancient coins as we do.
Just hoped that someone here may have some theories about this pesky rodent! And maybe I will change my coin description to "rodent", rather than guess between rat or mouse.
Cheers.

Offline Sam

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2017, 04:39:17 pm »

Could be a symbol for enemies under the hoofs of horses.
Sam Mansourati

Offline jvrnz

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2017, 05:04:33 pm »
Thanks Sam. I guess even in Roman times, rodents were unpopular!
I had wondered if it related somehow to the moneyer, as it appears between the Ti and the Q. Maybe a reference to a nickname, or to the family, or the origins of the family? But there is debate as to who the moneyer was, so I didn't get far with that either.
Cheers.

Offline Sam

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2017, 05:45:51 pm »
I have some humble info about ancient Assyrian and Chaldean , rats were  mostly used to indicate enemies and traitors.
( Maybe because they used to eat their food surprisingly  :) )
Pleasure to chat with you.
Sam Mansourati

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2017, 06:20:20 pm »
Such an interesting coin type.  We've discussed this before

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=91131.0


"It is the Sminthean cult of Apollo (as opposed to, for instance, the Delian Apollo) that is associated with mice, but we don't know for sure what Apollo's original mouse-smintheus association was. Smintheus could be a geographic name, from a place in Asia Minor called Sminthia, which Strabo says is near Hamaxitus, although Homer places the early cult centers of Apollo Smintheus in the cities of Chrysa and Tenedos. The Iliad's Apollo of Sminthos may just be a local Apollo with no reference to rodents; however, "smintheus" could also be from a Greek word for mouse in the Aeolic or Cretan dialect [Farnell]. Depictions of Smithean Apollo show the god standing with a mouse under foot. He is also shown with a mouse in hand.

The main effect on the ancient Greeks of the relationship between Apollo and rodents was that Apollo caused and averted plagues. Frederick Bernheim and Ann Adams Zener say, "The god who controls rodents can cause not only pestilence but starvation and defeat in battle as well." If, as Farnell says, Apollo Smintheus protected farmers from field-mice depredations, he therefore staved off famine, a pestilence. If pestilence isn't close enough to plague for you, famine was often associated with the plague disease typhus, according to G. F. Hill."

Offline Sam

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2017, 06:24:22 pm »
I consider knowing and searching every part of the coin , A Beautiful Mind.

Remind me with my major schooling of Math. ;D
Sam Mansourati

Offline jvrnz

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2017, 06:40:24 pm »
Thanks Jay GT4 & Sam. I read the previous thread (thanks for the link). The dormouse idea I don't see fits with the rest of the coin- Hercules & desultor racing. The timing of the law fits with the accepted minting date, but that's about it.
The association with Apollo I accept, but why is Apollo relevant to this type?
So many questions! But I think everyone agrees, it's an interesting coin and nice to speculate about the ideas behind it.
Cheers.

Offline Simon

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2017, 07:46:17 pm »
I just found this on a web site dealing with ..rats... It gives no source but this is what it said.

The Romans sometimes saw rats as omens as well.  A white rat was considered by the Romans as auspicious. But a black rat has unfortunate significance. If you were Roman and found rats had gnawed your personal effects you should postpone any business you may have been considering.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline jvrnz

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2017, 07:53:05 pm »
Now that idea seems promising. If the white coloured rat was a good omen, maybe it somehow relates to the horse racing and gambling? Maybe our moneyer made his fortune from betting on the winning desultor depicted on the coin?
That association removes the Apollo mystery, which sits better with me.
Cheers.

Offline Sam

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2017, 08:51:48 pm »
I do not know much about Roman republic , I did a fast search ;
What is intersting here , no other Roman Republic Moneyer had a rat on coins correct ?

Together let us search for a rat on any ancient coin.
Sam Mansourati

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2017, 09:26:19 pm »
As Curtis said...we may never know for sure.  What's funny is that the ancient Romans would have known the significance immediately.  It was so familiar to them they didn't need to explain it!

Think of all the things we have that is taken for granted.

Offline TenthGen

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2017, 10:05:30 pm »
Quote
And maybe I will change my coin description to "rodent", rather than guess between rat or mouse.

I remember hearing a long time ago that the Romans didn't typically distinguish rats from mice. The latin word "Mus" can mean either rat or mouse, and they often just added large or small modifiers to be more precise. In the biologic world, rats and mice have a spectrum of size anyway.

Besides that, I browsed the Wildwinds descriptions of the coins of the type and found this in one of the sold summaries:

Quote from: tomg37 on Wildwinds example 2
Type refers to the public games - in the ludi Apollinares, contests took place where the rider raced two horses vaulting from one to the other.

If rodents were representative of Apollo, and if this particular moneyer was involved with those games, it might make sense.

Offline jvrnz

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2017, 01:12:46 am »
Quote from: tomg37 on Wildwinds example 2
Type refers to the public games - in the ludi Apollinares, contests took place where the rider raced two horses vaulting from one to the other.

If rodents were representative of Apollo, and if this particular moneyer was involved with those games, it might make sense.

Wikipedia again: The Ludi Apollinares were solemn games (ludi) held annually by the ancient Romans in honor of the god Apollo. The Ludi Apollinares were games which were first organized in 212 BC, when C. Sulla was praetor.[9] Initially a vow was made to hold them only once.[1] There is some discussion as to who officially made them annual games.
One version of events proposes that L. Varus, the praetor urbanus at the time, renewed this vow and celebrated them again in 210 BC.[1] They were made an annual festival by a law in 208 BC by L. Varus, who was then curule aedile.[10] A severe plague in 208 BC may have prompted the Senate to make them permanent, in honor of Apollo, who they regarded as a god of healing.[11] From this day on, they were celebrated on July 13 and eventually grew to last 8 or 9 days.,[1][5]

So, this makes sense of the Apollo association. Did the Romans understand the link between rats & the spread of plaque? If so, the rat could have 2 symbolism's: Apollo as God of healing & referring to the games in his honour; & maybe referencing the rats role in spreading disease.

Online Meepzorp

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2017, 08:54:43 am »
As Curtis said...we may never know for sure.  What's funny is that the ancient Romans would have known the significance immediately.  It was so familiar to them they didn't need to explain it!

Think of all the things we have that is taken for granted.

Hi folks,

Maybe it is a Roman version of Mickey Mouse, and the guy riding the horse (on the reverse) is following it to the Roman Disney World. ;D :o

Just kidding!!! :)

Actually, I have an example of this issue. I'll be posting it in my website when I get to my Roman Republic coins.

In the meantime, I have a Greek Akarnania AE coin with a mouse depicted on the reverse.

Here it is (first coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/g_akarn_arkadia.htm

Any connection to the rat/mouse depicted on the RR denarius?

Meepzorp

Offline Carausius

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2017, 09:13:35 am »
Just to illustrate the difficulty of interpreting ancient coins with moden sensibilities: doormice were considered a delicacy in Roman times!  So, what we interpret as vermin, the ancient Roman populace may have looked at as candy.  

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2017, 12:26:34 pm »
Crawford, p. 312, sees no connection to the Ludi Apollinares: "the desultor on the reverse perhaps portrays a statue, if the tablet with incuse legend D.S.S. is intended to recall a statue-base; the formula d(e) s(enatus) s(ententia) is a common one in building inscriptions."
Curtis Clay

Offline v-drome

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2017, 01:49:26 am »
I once wrote a Haiku, based on a true story,
that touched on this subject.

Big rat, large dog, man.

Together in a small room.

Good luck, barefoot man.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2017, 08:21:09 am »
I once wrote a Haiku, based on a true story,
that touched on this subject.

Big rat, large dog, man.

Together in a small room.

Good luck, barefoot man.

Beautiful!

Online Meepzorp

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Re: Ti Q denarius; what is the symbolism of the rat?
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2017, 10:41:01 am »
I once wrote a Haiku, based on a true story,
that touched on this subject.

Big rat, large dog, man.

Together in a small room.

Good luck, barefoot man.

Hi vd,

That Haiku reminds me of a video game called "Temple of Apshai" (for an Atari 400/800 home computer) that I used to play back in the 1980s.

Meepzorp

 

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