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Author Topic: Judean oil lamp unknown?  (Read 9857 times)

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Offline Brunus

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Judean oil lamp unknown?
« on: November 25, 2016, 05:20:48 pm »
Hello folks,
I've recently received this ancient judean oil lamp in a trade but unfortunately i dont know when it was made?
Can someone help me on this one!!
Sincerly & thanks.
Brunus

Offline wileyc

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2016, 01:34:40 pm »
I have little experience with oil lamps, though I have several reportedly authentic, I do not know for sure. there are some online catalogue's you can find that seem to have some reasonable examples and explanations of types. I have looked through them over the years and always appreciate how much I do not know!


here is a link to a non-comercial (no sales) site that has a nice sampling broken into reported styles, you might find yours in there.

http://www.romulus2.com/lamps/lampcat/lampcat.shtml

cordially

cw

Offline Brunus

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2016, 01:08:32 pm »
Thanks cw,
I've looked in the link you sent me and there was some lamps that came close to what i have but i will do some more researching.
Thanks for sharing the link and your time!!
Best regards,
Brunus

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2016, 02:24:28 pm »
In quickly scanning the book "Oil lamps of the Holy Land" (The Adler Collection), the style most closely seems to match what is usually called the "Samaritan" style lamp.  One of the main characteristics is the pronounced "trench" from the wick hole up to the fill hole on the discuss.  They often also have the cross-hatching decorative designs visible on your piece.

Offline Brunus

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2016, 03:51:11 pm »
Ok so what period could this type of lamp be from?
I've never had a lamp and i received it in a trade.
Best Regards,
Brunus

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2016, 05:33:20 pm »
Generally attributed starting around the 3rd or 4th centuries through the 7th century, AD.

Offline Sam

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2016, 08:33:34 pm »
Good evening gentlemen ,
I am not saying this one is authentic or not , I know nothing about those and further more I would not trust a lamp or other objects like this type , unless it is just out of the ground right now under my eyes.

Here is why I am saying this ;
First , I care about your money , you work hard for it.

Second , I have been to every country in the middle east and its big cities, even to Jerusalem as a pilgrim .
Every single jewelry store where tourists are , has those specially in Syria and Lebanon, clay statues and more.

I am sure if any member been there , will support my post.

I hope yours is original.
Sam Mansourati

Offline Canaan

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2016, 03:53:58 am »
I can not agree more, Sam is Absolutely right, if you do not see the lamp or Jar  in front of  your eyes got out of the earth it is most likely a fake, I have visited some workshops of these faking masters, they are so skillful and using the exact old techniques in production, it is horrible!!! be cautious please.
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Offline Brunus

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2016, 01:47:29 pm »
Hello Sam & Canaan,
I understand your point that there's lot's of replica's out there but this lamp came from a trusted ancient dealer that we had
known for many years!!
Anyhow i say it's real but unfortunately the date is uncertain.
Well take care guy's and thanks for sharing your idea's.
Best Regards,
Brunus

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2016, 05:59:03 pm »
While I am in no ways an expert, I feel....based solely on the pics posted.....that the lamp is authentic.

While there are a huge number of fake lamps and other terracotta items on the market, there are also many thousands if not millions of authentic pieces out there. Saying that if you don't see it come out of the ground, you don't trust its authenticity is an extreme over reaction.  Why not take the same position on coins?  As we all know, there are tons of fakes out there.

Just as a sound piece of advice for buying any coin is "Know thy dealer"......that same holds true for antiquities.  There are dealers out there specializing in antiquities who are acknowledged experts and whose opinion can be trusted implicitly.  And yes, fake antiquities can slip past the most knowledgeable dealer just as fake coins occasionally make it past coin dealers.

And Brunus....if you're looking to narrow the date down it's probably not possible.  If a style of lamp, bowl, pitcher, etc., was manufactured over a few centuries, that's about the best you're gonna do.  Unfortunately, they weren't dated in any way.  Now, if you had the archaeological context from the excavation, it might help a bit, but that usually isn't available for items like this.

Offline Sam

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2016, 06:52:52 pm »
Thank you for the input , cmcdon0923.
Sure they are authentic pieces as I hope this one is , but coins are completely different story .
Have you ever been to the places I mentioned middle east ?
Have you ever seen handy workshops there and the high quality of forgery? And the authentic melted material they are using ?

When I say ; I would not trust a lamp or other objects like this type , unless it is just out of the ground right now under my eyes.
Believe me , I know what I am talking about.
Sure  a perfect and well educated dealer is not a part of this non - trust .
I can not write everything , you know. Those are intuitive.
Sam Mansourati

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2016, 08:25:01 pm »
Sam,

While yes, I have been to the Middle East, I have never been to one of the forgery workshops that abound there.  They're not exactly on a lot to tour itineraries.  ;)  But I have read numerous accounts of their "products" and yes, the quality is frightening.

And anyone on FORVM that checks the FAKES discussion thread can see first hand the exceptional quality of the fakes out there, which continue to get better all the time.

But I still maintain that a position of complete avoidance unless you actually see it come out of the ground you wouldn't touch it (which is possibly also be a violation of that country's laws), is a gross over reaction.

Hopefully you were just using an extreme exaggeration to make your point.

The main point is that as with coins, buy your antiquities from a reputable dealer who guarantees their material.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2016, 08:29:35 pm »
I don't agree that the fakes get better all the time. They really have not changed much. There have always been mostly obvious fakes and some better fakes.
Joseph Sermarini
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Offline SC

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2016, 08:45:36 am »
This cavalier attitude in dismissing items as fake is as dangerous as the naive attitude of accepting everything as genuine.

First, I have nothing to say on the lamp itself as I don't know the type or know enough about them to know the signs of genuine versus fake.  My comments are more general.

The idea that you can only accept an item is genuine if you see it brought out of the ground with your own eyes is nonsense, and in fact dangerous.  This is to dismiss the entire market and hundreds of honest and knowledgeable dealers world wide.  The dealers most of the world buys from do not take items directly out of the ground, and excavators, whether legal or not, do not take buyers along to watch.  Responsible buyers should be seeking items with providence not seeking items excavated before their eyes.

Determining genuine vs. fake is about facts.  It is about assessing objects against the characteristics of known genuine items.  It is about experience in seeing, and preferably handling, genuine items and learning to detect their style, fabric, weight, size, patinas, etc.  I agree with what Joe said on the quality of fakes.  In the vast majority of cases this is very easy once you have the basic knowledge.  The kind of fakes that fool experts or need scientific tests to determine authenticity are not what you see in the tourist markets and places.  What you see are many items that might look interesting to a novice (and we are all novices outside our areas of knowledge) but that wouldn't fool anyone with any experience.

The "story" of the piece (its metadata if you would like) can definitely give important clues regarding possible authenticity - who is selling it, where are you/they, what else do they sell, what is their story for the item - but those alone are never enough to decide if it is fake or not.  I agree that there are many "red flags" or warning signs.  "I bought this lamp/coin from a guy at the main gate at Jerash" is always a warning sign and is usually followed by a finding of fake.  But the important point I am trying to make is that that fact alone is not enough evidence.

Just to take the two extremes of the spectrum of possibilities, even items that are taken directly from the ground or sea can be fake.  There is a small but known practice of seeding fields or diving spots with items for (usually amateur) detectorists or divers to find.  Likewise, even items from very well known and respected dealers can be fake.  The only really decisive evidence is the item itself.

Almost everywhere I have seen masses of fakes for sale - Egypt, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, West Bank, former Yugoslavia, Hungary, and some markets in Europe and the US - I have also found some genuine items.

Would I advise someone to buy from these guys - no.

But would I automatically dismiss something bought from them as fake - no.  I would examine it first.

Shawn

 
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2016, 12:33:41 pm »
I agree. There are many many genuine lamps. Most fake lamps are poor copies not intended to fool anyone who knows the difference.
Joseph Sermarini
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Offline Strobilus2

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2016, 10:48:20 am »
coins are completely different story .

Sam,

Indeed, they are. But the "story" depends on which type of object you specialise in studying. You specialise in ancient coins; I specialise in ancient lamps. I know very little about ancient coins and I might find it difficult to tell a genuine coin from a fake one but I have a great deal of experience in ancient lamps and I normally find it very easy to tell a genuine lamp from a fake one.

Ancient coins are as alien to me as ancient lamps are to you. But it seems a little bizarre that someone has no difficulty accepting tiny and largely two-dimensional objects such as coins as genuine while insisting that larger, more complex objects with both spatial volume and a far more generous surface area such as lamps should only be trusted if "it is just out of the ground right now under my eyes". For me, it's the other way round but it's really just down to different experience. :)


Brunus,

Your lamp is a very common type mainly found in a region shared by modern Israel and Jordan, and popularly classified as "Late Samaritan". It was made during the Byzantine period, 6th - 7th centuries AD.

Your lamp is undoubtedly genuine. It's easy to judge even from just images. The fabric, surface condition and style details are entirely different from the fakes.

I thank C Wiley for the link to my website and his kind words. Your lamp is the same type as BSP15.

http://www.romulus2.com/lamps/database/lamp.php?117

David Knell



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Offline Strobilus2

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Re: Judean oil lamp unknown?
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2016, 10:58:02 am »
I'll just add that I was very impressed by the last post from Shawn. Wise advice!

David
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