Classical Numismatics Discussion
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Biblical & Judean Coins (Moderators: Salem Alshdaifat, Aarmale)  |  Topic: Overstruck Philistia Drachm 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Overstruck Philistia Drachm  (Read 2519 times)
Nemonater
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« on: November 04, 2016, 10:13:38 pm »

I recently added this coin to my gallery.  Does anyone have a clue what the under type might be?

Thanks

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-132870

PHILISTIA (PALESTINE), Uncertain mint. Mid 5th century-333 BC. AR Drachm (15mm, 3.95 g, 12h). Imitating Athens. Overstruck on uncertain type.
O: Helmeted head of Athena right, with profile eye
R: Owl standing right, head facing; olive sprig left; all within incuse square.
-Gitler & Tal IX.1D; HGC 10, –.
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Nemonater
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« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2016, 04:04:40 pm »

The answer was in front of me all along, simply the same die rotated 145 degrees.
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Sam
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« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2016, 04:29:24 pm »

You just love over struck coins , don't you  Smiley .

Added **  By the way it is on acsearch 2014
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Sam Mansourati
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« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2016, 04:33:22 pm »

That's really cool.
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Nemonater
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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2016, 04:49:54 pm »

You just love over struck coins , don't you  Smiley .

I do love overstruck coins but they drive me absolutely crazy trying to figure them out! I need to remind myself to consider the most obvious possibility before trying to find a more exotic solutions!

I wonder why in the world they would have struck the coin twice like this?
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Molinari
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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2016, 05:44:30 pm »

I'd imagine it was an accident, right?  Like maybe a struck coin fell back into a basket of blanks.
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Nemonater
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2016, 06:30:15 pm »

I'd imagine it was an accident, right?  Like maybe a struck coin fell back into a basket of blanks.

I would have to think that's it, just a simple mint error. 
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2016, 06:40:13 pm »

Too much wine
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Nemonater
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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2016, 06:55:58 pm »

 Grin
Too much wine

That might explain it as well. I have seen a number of rotated overstrikes that appear to be very intentional, creating interesting designs.  It's hard to imagine a more boring job than striking coins all day.  Maybe they did this every once in a while to break the monotony.
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Sam
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2016, 07:04:15 pm »

Among this beautiful mess , let us look for (an) Aramaic letter(s).

PHILISTIA  type usually have them on.
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Sam Mansourati
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« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2016, 07:42:40 pm »

If the two rev. dies are different, then it would be a "Kraay" overstrike, where those two rev. dies were being applied alternately at the same obv. die, and a finished coin was not removed fast enough, so was mistakenly overstruck with the second rev. die.
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2016, 08:00:44 pm »

Unless I'm mistaken the obverse appears to be similarly over struck, albeit by the obverse die, with the same rotational component as the reverse, suggesting the coin remained on the anvil after the initial strike, but rotated on the anvil before being struck again.
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Nemonater
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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2016, 05:14:54 pm »

If the two rev. dies are different, then it would be a "Kraay" overstrike, where those two rev. dies were being applied alternately at the same obv. die, and a finished coin was not removed fast enough, so was mistakenly overstruck with the second rev. die.

Very interesting! I do believe the reverse it a die match however, they seem to aline perfectly.

Unless I'm mistaken the obverse appears to be similarly over struck, albeit by the obverse die, with the same rotational component as the reverse, suggesting the coin remained on the anvil after the initial strike, but rotated on the anvil before being struck again.

Yes, I agree. I believe you can see the remnants of the crest in front of Athena's face and remnants of the neck on top of her head.   If the coin mistakenly remained in the anvil after the first strike, wouldn't we expect another flan to have been placed on top resulting in a flattened owl
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n.igma
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« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2016, 10:12:04 pm »

..... If the coin mistakenly remained in the anvil after the first strike, wouldn't we expect another flan to have been placed on top resulting in a flattened owl?  

Not necessarily. It may have been an oblique initial strike that only partially imprinted the design on the flan (note its off-centre reverse) which remained on the anvil and rotated as the punch was lifted. Seeing the result of an imperfect imprint the mint workers simply gave it another bash overprinting the rotated imperfect initial off-centre design imprint, not that the final result is any better but they tried!
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All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Biblical & Judean Coins (Moderators: Salem Alshdaifat, Aarmale)  |  Topic: Overstruck Philistia Drachm « previous next »
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