Unspecified Eastern mint of Probus, based on S. Estiot article,

[quadrans]

Unspecified Eastern mint of Probus, based on S. Estiot article,

 After reading S.Estiot article (you can Academia.edu Site):

"L'emperor et l'usurpateur: un 4e atelier oriental sous Probus" by Sylviane Estiot

I thought I'll see if I can find one or two pieces of my own collection of Antioch.

The following think it is included.:

Although there may be other pieces of more accurate tests are valid here too.

Unspecified Eastern mint gallery of Probus:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6165

Antioch gallery of Probus:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5301

... and here's what I found four samples:

Thanks if anyone has ideas?

Regards
 Q.

112 Probus (276-282 A.D.), AE-Antoninianus, RIC V-II 922-1, Unspecified Eastern mint, CLEMENTIA TEMP, Bust-C, A•//XXI, Emperor and Jupiter with victory,
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-108183

112 Probus (276-282 A.D.), AE-Antoninianus, RIC V-II 922-4, Unspecified Eastern mint, CLEMENTIA TEMP, Bust-C, Δ//XXI, Emperor and Jupiter with victory,
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-109672

112 Probus (276-282 A.D.), AE-Antoninianus, RIC V-II 922-4, Unspecified Eastern mint, CLEMENTIA TEMP, Bust-C, Δ•//XXI, Emperor and Jupiter with victory,
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-108185

112 Probus (276-282 A.D.), AE-Antoninianus, RIC V-II 922-6, Unspecified Eastern mint, CLEMENTIA TEMP, Bust-C, S•//XXI, Emperor and Jupiter with victory,
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-108186

[quadrans]

I hope  I finde two other "Unspecified Eastern mint" Probus:

In my Gallery:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6165


112 Probus (276-282 A.D.), AE-Antoninianus, RIC V-II 922-3-5, (Antioch??), CLEMENTIA TEMP, Bust-C, E•//XXI, Emperor and Jupiter, #1
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-130156

112 Probus (276-282 A.D.), AE-Antoninianus, RIC V-II 922-3-5, (Antioch??), CLEMENTIA TEMP, Bust-C, E•//XXI, Emperor and Jupiter, #2
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-130270

 Any idea ?

 Regards

 Q.

[SEstiot]

Dear Jozsef,
You are perfectly right in identifying these coins of yours as being minted by what I called the "4th oriental mint" under Probus (the other 3 being Cyzicus, Antiochia and Tripolis): its products are generally confused with those from Antioch, but Antioch strikes coins in 9 officinae and the 4th oriental mint in 6 officinae, and its style is definitively different from the Antiochene one...
All the best,
S. Estiot

[mauseus]

Hi,
Just been looking on the academia.edu site and can't find the paper in question under Dr Estiot's listing. Am I doing something wrong?

Regards,

Mauseus

[quadrans]

Dear Jozsef,
You are perfectly right in identifying these coins of yours as being minted by what I called the "4th oriental mint" under Probus (the other 3 being Cyzicus, Antiochia and Tripolis): its products are generally confused with those from Antioch, but Antioch strikes coins in 9 officinae and the 4th oriental mint in 6 officinae, and its style is definitively different from the Antiochene one...
All the best,
S. Estiot

Dear Sylviane,

Thank you again your valuable help..

Best regards

Joe as Q.

[quadrans]

Hi,
Just been looking on the academia.edu site and can't find the paper in question under Dr Estiot's listing. Am I doing something wrong?

Regards,

Mauseus

Hi Mauseus,

If you not find this article let me know, and I will send you..

Best regards

 Q.

[dougsmit]

Most but not all of the posted examples seem to have trouble rendering the eye.  Is there a diagnostic or hint you can offer to ID theat 4th mint?

[quadrans]

Nice example Doug..

The portrait are very characteristic, this was mine first point of to find this type..if it is help..

Regards

 Q.

[Barnaba6]

Most but not all of the posted examples seem to have trouble rendering the eye.  Is there a diagnostic or hint you can offer to ID theat 4th mint?

All the hints are described in S.Estiot's article. Apart from the very caracteristic style of the emperor's portrait struck by the 4th oriental mint there are some additional hints:

1.the letter "M" in the obverse and reverse legend is in much better style at the 4th oriental Mint (all parts of the "M" are connected so you just see one letter) than in Antiochia, where the "M" is not really an "M" but rather a combination of three separate letters: "I""V""I";

2. The 4th Oriental Mint struck only in 6 officinae while Antiochia struck coins first in 8 officinae (first emmission) than in 9 officinae (2nd emmission);

3. as far as the Clementia Temp reverse is concerned (RIC 922) most coins struck at the 4th oriental mint have a big dot after the officina mark while such dot is not present on the Antiochian issue;

4. the globe underneath Victoria (still RIC 922) is usually smaller or virtually nonexistent on coins struck by the 4th oriental mint while it is usually quite big and visible in the Antiochian issues; also Victoria herself tends to be smaller at the 4th Oriental Mint compared to the Antiochian issues.

5. some mintmarks previously attributed to Antiochia were in fact struck only at the 4th oriental mint (e.g. RIC 920 with //KA and //KA mintmarks).

6. Stigma letter (mark of the 6th officina) has a different shape at the 4th oriental mint compared to the Antiochian issue.

I hope this helps.

Best,

Barnaba

[quadrans]

Dear Barnaba ,

I absolutely agree  , 

Q.

[dougsmit]

Thank you, Barnaba, for the great reply!

For the benefit of anyone unclear on all those points, I'll tack on a coin with very IVI M's and a large ball for Victory for comparison.  To top it off, the officina is H ( which is too high for the 4th mint.  I remain unclear on how to tell this was from the period with 8 shops or nine.  Unfortunately, I also have a shop 9  with integral M's, small/no globe.  I would think the officina 9 alone is enough to make the call but any comments would be appreciated.  I have not studied Probus and do not read French beyond what gets me through Cohen  so confusion is my standard state here.

[Barnaba6]

You're welcome Doug.

Please understand that the additional hints are not always 100% correct, especially when you look at them individually. The decisive caracteristic of the 4th oriental mint IMHO remains the style of the emperor's portrait.

I encourage you to download S.Estiot's paper even if your French is not perfect, if only for the photos of all the coins identified by S.Estiot as being from the 4th oriental mint (and classified by her in subsequent emmissions). It's much easier  to learn the caracteristic style of that mint when you look at several coins from that mint.

Additionally, I encourage you to consult the new probuscoins.fr website created by Christophe Oliva. It's a new (and ongoing) database project for the coinage of Probus. You can search for Probus coins there with the use of different criteria, including by different mints (atelier in French). So choose "4e atelier oriental" and you will have photos of all the coins fron the 4th oriental mint to study. 

As far as your two coins are concerned, they are both from the Antiochia mint.

The first coin from the 8th officina (H letter) should be easily classified as being from the Antiochia mint as it meets all the criteria described earlier, i.e. it has an I V M letter instead of "M", has a big ball for Victory instead of a small one, does not have a dot after the letter "H" and is from the 8th officina which did not exist at the 4th oriental mint. Last but not least the style of the portrait is clearly from Antiochia not the 4th oriental mint.

The second coin from the 9th officina indeed has a small globe and an integral "M", i.e. elements typical fot the 4th oriental mint. However the 9th officina at Antiochia (opened in 280 AD for the purpose of second emmission according to K. Pink) is exceptional - it was most likely managed by an engraver who came from the Serdica mint (closed in 280 AD). If you look closely you will see that the style of the emperor's portrait in the 9th officina is very much similar to the Serdica coins and very much different from the style of the remaining officinae at Antiochia. It is definitely a finer style. The fact that the 9th officina at Antiochia was managed by a different (more capable) engraver might also explain the differences in the lettering and the globe.

I hope this helps.

Best,

Barnaba

 

[Barnaba6]

I forgot to add you may also consult Antiochia and 4th oriental mint coins in the galleries of members of this forvm, including Joe's gallery (quadrands), Martin's gallery (maridvnvm) and my own gallery.

Barnaba

[SEstiot]

Thank you to all interested in this newly identified '4th oriental mint': the coinage of Probus is a never-ending source for historical discoveries, apart from its beauty and richess.
Thank you to you Barnaba. Mauseus, you couldn't find my paper on Academia.edu as it was not there till today.

It is now available on-line on Academia.edu https://www.academia.edu/29744478/L_Empereur_et_l_usurpateur_un_4e_atelier_oriental_sous_Probus and I hope it will answer your questions on how to identify the coins of this 4th oriental mint and distinguish them from the products of Antiochia (stylistic differences, lettering, officinae organization, etc.).
[ Besides, it shows how the scalptores coming from the closed mint of Serdica run the VII officina of Siscia and the  officina of Antiochia ].
The problem is now to locate this 4th oriental mint, and there are very few provenances known for the coins... If you have any for your own coins, I would be very interested.
All the best to all of you,
S. Estiot

[mauseus]

Hi,

Thank-you for making it available (and also confirming I am not dumb, at least with respect to finding things on Academia.edu).

Regards,

Mauseus

[mauseus]

Hi,

Having read Dr Estiot's paper and also looked at probuscoins.fr I believe that this coin in my trays would be from the newly identified 4th eastern mint.

Regards,

Mauseus

[quadrans]

 
 
Q.

[clueless]

Dear Board,

I have arrived at the conclusion that this coin is from the unknown eastern mint, am I correct ? The patina of the coin causes som minor problems with my light source, so the rendering of the eye isn't so easy to see, but based on that and other details I did arrive at this conclusion.

Any comments are appreciated

Cheers,

Clueless

[quadrans]

Hi Clueless,

Your coin are the Eastern mint in my opinion (IMO), the 4th emission 2nd off. date 281.

Regards

 Q.

[quadrans]

My new Eastern mint ( I find now in my collection ), as :


112 Probus (276-282 A.D.), AE-Antoninianus, RIC V-II 921-2-1, Antioch, CLEMENTIA TEMP, Bust-C, Γ•//XXI, Emperor and Jupiter,
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-133387

(Sorry not the best quality)

Regards
 Q.

[Jschulze]

I was pleasantly surprised to find that what I thought was a standard Antioch mint coin is actually thought be be from a mysterious 4th oriental mint. Anyway, sorry to revive an old thread but I find S. Estiot's article and these coins very interesting!

Josh

Probus
Obverse:- IMP C M AVR PROBVS P F AVG, Radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right, seen from back
Reverse:- CLEMENTIA TEMP, Emperor standing right, holding sceptre, receiving Victory from Jupiter standing left, holding sceptre.
S•//XXI
4th. Unspecified Oriental Mint, 3rd. em., "dotted series" 6th. off., date: 280 A.D., ref: RIC V-II 922-3-6, p-120,

[Jschulze]

Just a follow-up:
The most interesting detail about this "4th eastern mint" is that, according to S. Estiot's paper, it's operation was a direct result of the revolt of the Syrian governor Saturninus in 280.

Translated (by google) from her paper linked below: "operation of the 4th East workshop whose existence (is) all circumstantial, was only due to the need to fight an usurper (Saturninus) - it only worked a few months, from mid-280 to early 281."

https://www.academia.edu/29744478/L_Empereur_et_l_usurpateur_un_4e_atelier_oriental_sous_Probus
To translate a pdf: https://translate.google.com/?tr=f&hl=en

[quadrans]

Thank you, Josh, 

Joe

[wolfgang336]

I'm glad I found this thread; it's a nice backgrounder to this coin, which I recently purchased misattributed as RIC 921. The portrait is less sharply contoured than some of the other more severe portraits from the mysterious fourth mint, but I believe it nevertheless belongs to that mint: pellet after the officina mark, the globe is small, the 'O' in the legend is smaller than the surrounding letters, and the 'M' is well formed. Am I right?

Evan

[maridvnvm]

I agree with you... and a nice example too.