Missing coins ..auction catalogues of a NY dealer from c 1965-1966 needed

[cicerokid]

A HOARD FROM NORTHERN GREECE by  Margaret Thompson  ANS Museum Notes 1966

"Late in the spring of 1965 a hoard of 36 second-century tetradrachms came into the hands of a New York dealer."

"Twenty-nine tetradrachms were acquired by the ANS and all except No. 6 are illustrated. Seven other pieces had been sold before the hoard came to the Society; photo- graphs of these are on file but only two (of Nos. 2 and 23) became available in time for inclusion in the plates"




I am looking for an Athens New Style that was not in the plates and whose photograph is lost in the ANS archives.

I do not know who the New York dealer is/was but who was popular in the mid 1960's, but luckily it probably be a big one.

I am looking for someone with access to New York dealers catalogues of 1965 to 1966 so i can find  publish the new obverse of an Athens New Style Thompson #4 for inclusion into my article "Some new coin types in the early Athens New Style silver coinage" on academia.edu.

Any tips or the catalogues themselves will be gratefully perused.

Cic

[Carausius]

Cic,

Could the coin(s) be in fixed-price lists as well as auction catalogues? Or do you know for a fact that the coins were auctioned?

[cicerokid]

I don't know.

I will guess that the coins were at a normal auction, since eventually the bulk of the coins went to the ANS by what means I do not know. ( I have added more details from the footnote of the ANS MN article),

The ANS couldn't find the photographs in the basement archives and my tracing the details of the coins they have from the hoard failed! How would I start (not being  a member of the ANS) looking for coins added to the ANS in say 1965/66? If I could find them would the details of the auctioneer be available?

The difficulties abound.

Thanks for the enquiry

cic

[cicerokid]

" I am indebted to Theodore V. Buttrey, Jr. for information about the hoard and preliminary negotiations leading to its acquisition"

from the footnotes of ANS Museum Notes.

I have sent an e-mail to the Fitzwilliam Cambridge asking if they still have an association with Mr Buttrey.

He is about 87 now!

[Carausius]

That's funny, I was about to respond to your prior posts to say that the information you've provided would lead me to conclude a private sale to the ANS rather than a public auction. The additional T. Buttrey "negotiations" information certainly supports a private, rather than public auction, sale. This may not be entirely bad news, as the coins might have appeared in a dealer's fixed price list, though likely only the best would have appeared in the plates.

EDIT: The only mid-1960s, New York ancients dealers that I can think of are Stack's, which often sold ancients under its Coin Galleries subsidiary, and Frederick J. Knobloch who was an active collector-dealer at that time.  Stack's/Coin Galleries' price lists should be your first search. The ANS likely has a complete set of their catalogues. Alternatvely, I think the ANS has searcable online databases of large chunks of its collection. Are the Athenian New Style Coinage not covered in any of them?

[Andrew McCabe]

" I am indebted to Theodore V. Buttrey, Jr. for information about the hoard and preliminary negotiations leading to its acquisition"

from the footnotes of ANS Museum Notes.

I have sent an e-mail to the Fitzwilliam Cambridge asking if they still have an association with Mr Buttrey.

He is about 87 now!

Ted Buttrey is the honorary Keeper of Coins and Medals in the Fitzwilliam, still of course works there, and I am hoping to visit him there next week. He is not 87, but is in his 80s. And working as hard as ever. Best would be to address Ted directly with any relevant question.

[cicerokid]

Thanks,

Have contacted the Fitzwilliam coin department. I'm sure things will happen now!

regards

Cic

[cicerokid]

Sadly Ted Buttrey, after reading the reference, cannot recall this at all.

I guess it all dies now.

The ANS cannot find the photos, the writer is dead, another cannot remember at all......I wonder which "collector/ museum" has the coin of interest squirrelled away to no purpose.

That's life!

[Carausius]

I guess it all dies now.

That sounds awfully fatalistic!   Surely the ANS must have record of acquiring 29 New Style tets in 1965-6 and from whom they acquired them.  Provenance should be listed with the coins.  This might require searching the ANS collection for the likely coins (maybe the collection can somehow be searched by item acquisition date)  Armed with the name of the dealer/seller, perhaps we can find or seek further info.

[cicerokid]

Thank you for your reply

Yes, your right.

Maybe I gave way to despair.

I looked on the ANS coins but only the Newell bequest is patchily on site.

Yes I shall try them again!

But you might have thought that after spending all that money and resources on Margaret Thompson's work they might have kept a weather eye open  and had a New Style file to log additions to the corpus as they came up. But it appears not.

That is why I have been writing "Some new coin types in the early New Style silver coinage of Athens". A paper that I keep updating on academia.edu. Someone has to!

Have a read!

regards

Cic (John Nisbet)

[cicerokid]

And finally..................

Peter van Alfen , Margaret Thompson curator of Greek coins at the ANS says;

I'm afraid that there is nothing in our database indicating the who the dealer was, nor can I locate the IGCH 481 file, which, if it ever existed, walked off before my time.

Sorry I can’t be of more help!

All best,

Peter



Well that's that then......

The only chance is...who were the major New York dealers of the mid-60's and who has the catalogues for 1965/66?

Back to where I started.

Cic

[Carausius]

Well for that, you could go to the ANS again; but this time talk to the research librarian!  ANS has a huge catalogue colllection.  I don't know who were the largest ancients dealers in NY at that time. Stack's and Frederick J. Knobloch came to mind, but there were likely others of which I may be unaware.

[Pekka K]

International Numismatic Directory 1973 lists 30 dealers in New York.
Ancient coins are mentioned:

Myers, Robert J.

Pekka K