Septimius Severus legion rarity

[traveler]

Hello everyone,

I’ve compiled an internal rarity table of Septimius Severus’ legionary series, minted 193-194 which I thought to share for anyone interested. The table lists the sale records of silver denarii only, not aurei or sestertii. Rome and eastern mint denarii have not been separated. Time period is from 1998 to 4 April 2016.

Where possible I’ve removed duplicates if the same coin was sold more than once. Also the figures I compiled from acsearch may be slightly inaccurate. Acsearch indexes sale records from lots of different companies, and they often have different conventions for describing the coins. For example sometimes it’s LEG XXII and sometimes LEG XX-II. Occasionally even the LEG has dashes. For reasons above the acsearch figures aren’t going to be completely accurate, although I’ve tried to include the variations in the calculations. I’ve also listed the sale records of FORVM and CNG since they aren’t listed in acsearch. Available stock in online shops is listed too, as are the figures from the Reka Devnia hoard.

The five rarest legions are LEG I MIN (0.71%), LEG VII CL (1.78%), LEG XXX VLP (1.78%), LEG XXII PRI (2.14%) and LEG II ITAL (3.56%). The most common legion is LEG XIIII GEM M V (39.5%).

[curtislclay]

Thanks for the interesting survey!

I had known that I MIN, XXII PRI, and XXX VLP are rare, but not that VII CL belongs in the same group.

A possible refinement, if you feel up to the task: separate the coins with and without capricorns on the standards. LEG XIIII GEM M V usually has capricorns, all other legions usually omit them. However sometimes XIIII GEM M V omits the capricorns, and sometimes other legions include them.

Rome-mint and eastern-mint coins are two different beasts, and certainly should not be intermixed in the same table in my opinion. However, I doubt that your counts include many eastern-mint coins. The main danger would be mint of Alexandria, with the enigmatic legend LEG III IT AVI or IT AVG. The commonest Syrian-mint legionary is XIIII GEM M V, but that has COS II in the obv. legend, so gets a different catalogue number (RIC 397). There is also a rare LEG VIII AVG with the same obv. legend as Rome, but that coin adds II COS to the reverse legend: BMC 336, pl. 15.7, misreported without the II COS by RIC 357. Anyway, if any such coins are in your counts, I would recommend that they be removed and listed separately at the end.

[Akropolis]

What about
LEG X-III GE-M M V ?

PeteB

[Pekka K]

Reka Devnia:

[curtislclay]

What about
LEG X-III GE-M M V ?

Probably just a misread LEG XIIII, in my opinion.

Why should LEG XIII normally be just GEM, but on this one die GEM M V, the normal designation for LEG XIIII?

Similarly we should not believe in LEG XIIII GEM without M V, reported by Cohen 270 from the Wiczay catalogue, and mentioned by RIC 14 in a footnote.

One could object that on the same argument LEG XXII PRI should also not exist, since it is usually just LEG XXII. The difference is that coins clearly reading LEG XXII PRI do exist, so it is pointless to argue that they shouldn't!

[Akropolis]

RIC IV 13 note; BMCRE 17 note; RSC 269a.

My books are still in storage. I wonder what the "note" says?

RSC gives it a distinct, separate  number 292a.

The link I provided shows a fairly clear LEG XIII GEM MV.

PeteB

[curtislclay]

RIC 13 note: describes a reported XIII GEM M V coin from Reka Devnia p. 97, with a question mark. See Pekka's RD scan above, 4th line from the bottom.

BMC 17 note: the same Reka Devnia coin, dismissed without argument as "misread XIIII".

The coin you link to is indeed described in the catalogue text as LEG X-III GE-M M V, but it might in fact be LEG XI-III GE-M M V, the first I in the numeral just being weak in the die. To confirm a new variety, a "possible" or "probable" reading of the novelty is not enough. We need a reading that is "clear beyond reasonable doubt"!

[Akropolis]

Yep. I agree......and the "notes" reinforce that!
Thanks, Curtis.
Pete

[traveler]

Thanks for the comments Curtis and Pete! Those are good suggestions regarding separating the eastern mint/Rome denarii and the capricorns. It shouldn't be too hard. Offhand I recall seeing very few eastern mint denarii indeed.

Actually I tried to have a close look at the LEG XIII GEM M V from CNG, and I thought it might have been a misreading as mentioned. The strike on the coin isn't very clear. Also Doug's website discusses the LEG XIII GEM M V, he believes it to be a misreading too.

By the way, if there are any other sites which lists their sales records (and not in acsearch) I'd be most glad to include them in the table. On a lighter note, I hope this doesn't make it harder to obtain the rarer legions!

[dougsmit]

There is also a rare LEG VIII AVG with the same obv. legend as Rome, but that coin adds II COS to the reverse legend: BMC 336, pl. 15.7, misreported without the II COS by RIC 357.

I'm confused by the above.  LEG VIII comes both ways.  My plain was in a Lanz sale in 2000; the IICOS was Gorny 2001.  Both have been on my site for years:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/legions.html

There are oddities like the third shown below which probably was intended to be LEG I ITAL but the wing covered the numeral.  As I recall there was an Alexandrian that read LEG IIII but I don't have one.  I was told many years ago that XXII PRI was the rarest but more have shown up in sales in the last decade including coins of a different obverse die than I had seen before.  I wonder sometimes if the rarity of VII and XXX in sales might be influenced by the same factors that make my examples of each lower grade or more poor workmanship that most.  One of my VII coins (last below) has a considerable die clash that makes it hard to read.  I wonder if the die is known pre-clash.

While I appreciate the work that went into the chart, I'm not sure that there are enough coins represented too offset the fact that private collections may be holding things in disproportionate numbers.  I have not added more than two coins in the last ten years but really stopped looking when my interest in Septimius became more off and on.  I have no idea how many people are out there looking to complete a set.  One each might not be so hard to assemble but one each with full clear legends with take a lot longer.  I never showed any concern for the different spacings. 

I remain of the opinion that all GEM M V coins are XIIII but that number is split so many ways that the typical small flans make coins that read XIII.  LEG XI comes both with and without capricorns.  I have no idea which is more scarce.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/legion3.html

Last I heard there was no one working on a die study of these.  Is that still correct?

[traveler]

...While I appreciate the work that went into the chart, I'm not sure that there are enough coins represented too offset the fact that private collections may be holding things in disproportionate numbers.  I have not added more than two coins in the last ten years but really stopped looking when my interest in Septimius became more off and on.  I have no idea how many people are out there looking to complete a set.  One each might not be so hard to assemble but one each with full clear legends with take a lot longer.  I never showed any concern for the different spacings.  

I remain of the opinion that all GEM M V coins are XIIII but that number is split so many ways that the typical small flans make coins that read XIII.  LEG XI comes both with and without capricorns.  I have no idea which is more scarce.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/legion3.html

Last I heard there was no one working on a die study of these.  Is that still correct?

I agree completely about the private collections. The figures for some of the legions are so small that private collections can easily skew things. What's more it covers only 1998 to the present, about 15 years of data. Nor does it include fleabay which doesn't store their sold archives for long. With all these gaps it's just an indicative picture at most.

I'd be interested in the die study if there's one in the works.

[traveler]

Hello all,

I've split the denarii into those from the mint of Rome and those from the eastern mints (stated to be Alexandria and Ephesus). Identification of the eastern mint denarii was based on the (markedly) cruder engraving style and the legends. Eastern mint denarii exist for LEG III IT AVG, LEG III IT AVI, LEG VIII AVG and LEG XIIII GEM M V. Eastern mint denarii regardless of legion number are all rare. Almost all the denarii of LEG III IT AVG and LEG III IT AVI show the foreparts of capricorns, which is quite strange.

The eastern mint denarii of LEG XIIII GEM M V show COS II on the obverse, which indicates they were minted in 194 after the main body for some reason (RIC 397).

Foreparts of capricorns appear on the following legions from Rome: LEG V MAC, LEG XI CL and LEG XIIII GEM M V. The capricorns are very common on LEG XIIII GEM M V and rare on LEG V MAC and LEG XI CL. LEG V MAC is surprising but there is a clear example on acsearch: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=359716

The table is an indicative picture only, it doesn't account for the denarii in private collections or the sales before 1998. Take it with a pinch of salt.

[maridvnvm]

I have the following to add to the discusison. I understand the constraints of the way the tables were created. I have the following easterns.

Standard COS II, XIIII GEM M V



The XIIII GEM MV also comes with the AVG II C obverse legend



I have and AVG II CO, LEG VIII AVO (sic) ?CR (sic) P COS



From Alexandria I have the LEG III IT AVG, TR P COS



and the L-EG III [IT A]V-I, TR P COS

[traveler]

Thanks for the images maridvnvm. It looks like the legends for the Ephesus mint denarii are quite erratic? Or perhaps the die cutters weren't familiar with latin. There are errors even within TR P COS.

By the way I understand there's an aureus for LEG I MIN, but I haven't been able to find a picture. Does anyone know where it's located? In a museum?

[tetsubu]

What do you think about this coin (legion number)? I think first letter of number is "V", but name of legion  "GEM M V" as on XIIII.

[dougsmit]

That is an Emesa mint LEG XIIII GEM M V with obverse legend ending in COSII.   While it is a different die, note mine below has the bottom of the X shorter but not quite as short as yours.  There are several dies of these each with its own patterns.

[traveler]

About the aurei of the legionary series, there are aurei known for the following legions. You really need deep "pocketses" to own one of these though!

LEG I MIN (1, mentioned in Oman, C.. 1918. “ON THE COINS OF SEVERUS AND GALLIENUS COMMEMORATING THE ROMAN LEGIONS”. The Numismatic Chronicle and Journal of the Royal Numismatic Society 18. Royal Numismatic Society: 80–96.)
The specific reference is on page 86. The only known example has been melted in 1831.

LEG VIII AVG: From regional mints and mint of Rome (2, 2 total?)
LEG XIIII GEM M V: From regional mints and mint of Rome (1, 8 total?)
LEG XXII (without PRI): 1, newly found in 2016, mint of Rome.

[curtislclay]

And the LEG I MIN aureus no longer exists!

Cohen 258, citing Caylus; that means formerly in the Paris collection, unfortunately stolen and melted down in 1831.

If we're lucky, another specimen will turn up one day.

[maridvnvm]

LEG XIIII GEM M V: 6 (all from mint of Rome)

Are you sure?

I have attached the three legionary Aurei from the BM collection.

LEG VIII AVG - Rome

LEG XIIII GEM M V  - Rome

and

LEG XIIII GEM M V  - Eastern

Martin

[traveler]

Hi Martin,

You're right! I hadn't looked at the BM collection. I haven't seen an eastern LEG XIIII in the trade though. Updated the post.

[Warren]

Here is my Eastern denarius:


Curtis already knows about it; I got it from him!

[traveler]

Hi all,

For anyone interested in images of the legionary series, there's an almost complete collection pictured (14 out of 16 types) in CNG sale 54, held on June 14 2000. The relevant pages are 188-191. You can see the scan of the catalogue here: https://issuu.com/cngcoins/docs/cng_54/190

Only LEG I MIN and LEG XIII GEM are missing. There's also an Alexandria mint issue (1694) and an AE sestertius (1697)

[dougsmit]

That was the Philip DiVicci collection.  The Alexandria was an AVG reverse (more rare of the two).  I only got my LEG I ITAL and LEG VII CL from that sale.  The problem with so many in the same sale was you had to make difficult choices.  You have to wonder if it is wise to sell a set together like that. 

[maridvnvm]

A LEG XXII Aureus....

Martin

[maridvnvm]

My newest addition is a LEG III ITAL.

Obv:– IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG, Laureate head right
Rev:– LEG III ITAL, TR P COS in exergue, legionary eagle between two standards. Capricorns on standards.
Minted in Rome. A.D. 193
Reference:– BMCRE 10, RIC 7. RSC 262

The portrait seems quite Antonine in nature rather to my eyes rather than the usual portrait style.