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Author Topic: Sicilian drama...  (Read 3289 times)

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Offline Diederik

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Sicilian drama...
« on: February 14, 2016, 02:17:41 pm »
Some of the Forum members were aware of my efforts to obtain a terribly rare dupondius of Antoninus Pius, but let me introduce the story first:
When Antonine had become emperor, he was visited by all the diplomatic staff from all parts of the Empire and perhaps even from beyond the frontier. They did not come empty-handed, but brought loads of gold and other precious things to pay tribute. Antoninus was honoured and flattered and commemorated the visiting provinces with thw emission of a series of bronzes. In this way Africa, Alexandria, Armenia, Asia, Cappadocia, Dacia, Hispania, Italia, Mauretania, Parthia, Phoenicia, Scythia, Sicilia, Syria and Thracia were depicted on reverses. The sestertii are the most common and the occasional dupondii and asses are extremely rare. The Sicilia dupondius is only known by one example in the collection of the Bibliotheque National in Paris. A second piece was recently offered by a dealer which I hold highly for the exceptional coins and high service. I bought the coin, be it at some expense.
The official description of the reverse is: Sicilia, draped, wearing triskelis on head, standing left, holding crown in right hand and poppy(?) in left. No-one except Henri Cohen and Paul Strack had the coin in hand and therefore comparison to another example was impossible, but the picture provided by the seller was clear enough and showed all details as described.

The coin arrived a few days ago and my anticipation was great, but quickly turned into anti-climax when I saw the edge of the coin and some more clear evidence of casting on the surfaces.
I contacted the seller and he revealed the (highly esteemed) source of his latest batch of coins, the Sicilia being one of them and questioned my ability to spot this coin as a fake, in view of the reputable source. But if I were as foolish as to doubt its genuiness, he would give me my money back.

I considered for a moment to do so immediately, feeling somewhat ashamed as a fooled 'experienced' collector, but I decided to make you all part of my ploit as a lesson of how careful we should be.
Moreover, there are some mysteries to be solved:
as there is only one example of the reverse on a middle bronze, the faker must have had access to the/an original. If he was skillful enough to produce a newly cut reverse, he could have made a new die and made the fake even more convincing. Looking closely at the coin, there is some real (hard green) patina, but most surfaces seem to be painted and on both obverse and reverse, some 'bubbles' can be seen. So the conclusion is that the item was cast and artificially patinated, but that the job was not done yesterday. The main question remains where the forger got his mould from.

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2016, 01:20:40 pm »
At a glance, I would have thought the coin good.  I hope that after realizing what a rarity it is, I might have looked more carefully.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2016, 01:55:47 pm »
What a shame, Frans!

I wouldn't make a great mystery about the possible source of the original from which the cast was derived.

There are thousands and thousands of ancient coins, for example in private collections, dealers' stocks, and smaller local museums, that have never been illustrated in sale catalogues or become known in any other way to academic cataloguers or the collecting world in general.

We know this, because new specimens of important rarities, some of them doubtless from old collections not recent finds, are turning up all the time!
Curtis Clay

Offline okidoki

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2016, 02:53:58 pm »
Hello Frans,

What to me looks a bit odd, are the lines i see on the Obv.
here i marked them also seen on his cheek, but i don't know what this says..
All the Best,
Eric
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Offline Diederik

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2016, 06:25:29 pm »
They are all over the obverse and are probably the hairs of the brush the coin was 'patinated' with.

Sad, isn't it?


F

Offline okidoki

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2016, 03:42:47 am »
Yes Frans,

indeed a shame its fake, i am sure there is one out there waiting for you, that is almost certain.
i'll keep my eyes open for it.
All the Best,
Eric
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Offline Diederik

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2016, 07:46:20 am »
Like a good Sicilian drama, the apotheosis is in the end...
I returned the coin to the dealer who would give me a refund, but it got lost in the mail and never made it back........

F

Offline okidoki

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2016, 07:53:10 am »
Like a good Sicilian drama, the apotheosis is in the end...
I returned the coin to the dealer who would give me a refund, but it got lost in the mail and never made it back........

F
even that happens,  :(
All the Best,
Eric
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Offline Pharsalos

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2016, 10:45:54 am »
Hmm, that is one lucky dealer. Were you able to determine at which point the coin was lost?

I would guess in this case the forger pressed a mould of an obverse genuine Antoninus dupondius, then a reverse of something like standing Pax or Fortuna. Then fill in the reverse legend and a couple of details of the reverse figure, then re-engrave your own, eg the 'SICILIA' legend and the 'poppy' and finally cast the coin. With no genuine example readily available to compare, not much to lose on the forger's part.

Offline kc

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2017, 02:23:57 pm »
Now this coin is offered on ebay.com

Regards,

kc

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2017, 03:10:37 pm »
Now this coin is offered on ebay.com

Regards,

kc

Yes, I've been watching it.  Ending tonight.  So then how did the "missing" coin end up on ebay?  It really is a Sicilian drama!

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2017, 03:46:04 pm »
Here is the one currently on ebay.  I've removed the background to protect the dealer.  Looks like it is the same coin.

Offline SC

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2017, 04:54:16 pm »
I would love to see what the "dark green patina" parts are composed of.  Did you get any close ups of that while it was in your hands Frans?

Shawn

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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2017, 09:54:23 pm »
Frans should probably change the title of this thread and it should be moved to the Fake section.

Offline Diederik

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2017, 02:34:06 pm »
The seller assured me he had bought this coin from an estate sale an couple of weeks ago. It is the very same coin that went missing in the mail and was obviously stolen in the USA between customs and the seller whom I returned the coin. He has made money twice (and a lot) and it is up to him what to do now.

Frans

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2017, 04:37:15 pm »
The seller assured me he had bought this coin from an estate sale an couple of weeks ago. It is the very same coin that went missing in the mail and was obviously stolen in the USA between customs and the seller whom I returned the coin. He has made money twice (and a lot) and it is up to him what to do now.

Frans

I hope he comes through for you Frans. 

Strange that a coin would be sold, returned by the buyer, stolen in the mail and then sold back to the very person who sold it in the first place!  I'm not saying that's not what happened...but what are the odds?

Fake coin report?

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2017, 04:58:06 pm »
Is it correct, as Jay assumes, that the dealer now selling the coin is the same one who sold it several months ago to Frans D.?

If so, I would assume that Frans' packet returning the coin, considered lost after an undue lapse of time, eventually in fact turned up.
Curtis Clay

Offline Diederik

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2017, 06:41:08 pm »
Quote
Strange that a coin would be sold, returned by the buyer, stolen in the mail and then sold back to the very person who sold it in the first place!  I'm not saying that's not what happened...but what are the odd

indeed....

F

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2017, 06:58:48 pm »
I submitted a report with a link to this thread.

Offline Akropolis

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2017, 07:55:27 pm »
NFSL candidate?
PeteB

Offline Diederik

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2017, 05:28:44 am »
No, I don't think so, as this is a one off as I see it. His coins are generally good and from old collections. I am still waiting for his reply on a mail I sent him.

Frans

Offline Diederik

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2017, 06:40:00 pm »
This cat-loving seller does not seem fit to give me a response, even after I mailed him again and congratulated him on getting such a big profit out of one coin. Informed him again of the existence of this forum, but alas.... no sign of life.
I am no longer so eager to buy from him...

Frans

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Sicilian drama...
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2017, 06:49:01 pm »
Pretty short sighted to loose a loyal client for so little money...it's so obviously the same coin.  I hope it gets resolved at some point.

 

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