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Author Topic: EX-NVMIS?  (Read 11867 times)

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Offline Molinari

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EX-NVMIS?
« on: January 30, 2016, 11:48:39 am »
Has anyone tried Ex-Nvmis, the provenance finding company?  I just read about it.  Sounds interesting but also geared for higher end stuff and big-wigs who don't have the time to do the fun stuff. I'm tempted to do it for my Aes Grave As, but I don't want to pay for the three provenance crumbs I already know about.

Offline Nemonater

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2016, 12:11:18 pm »
I tried it.  When you sign up you get 5 submissions for free so it can't hurt to try it out. That being said, I got no hits.

Offline Molinari

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2016, 12:19:00 pm »
Well you get 25 credits, each submission costs 5 credits, provenance after 1971 is 25 credits, 50 credits for earlier (or something like that).  So my Aes Grave has 2 auction records in the last 10 years, that's 55 credits to tell me what I already know.

Offline Molinari

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2016, 12:21:18 pm »
In fact, you wouldn't even get one free 1971+ provenance by my calculations, since the 25 would use up the free credits and you'd be down 5 for the admin fee. 

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2016, 12:23:23 pm »
I've heard good things about it. My intent is to use it on evidently old-toned quality coins after I've exhausted my own resources. That's likely to take a year or two though given my own library is extensive and I can also, with some time and bother, go to Cambridge to consult the Fitzwilliam. But the sort of places I'd never get around to checking are fixed price lists, middle-size French auctions and the like. My focus tends to be on major sales, so it'll depend on whether ex-nvmis has a usefully lower level focus.

If you actually find a provenance I don't think the cost is going to become an issue. A provenance on a good coin typically adds 25% to its value - I think you'd pay to find the result?

Offline Nemonater

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2016, 12:26:00 pm »
You can email any provenance you already have so it doesn't count against you.  I don't disagree with your calculations but they allow you to submit five coins with the 25 free credits. (Which is what I did)

They also don't ask for any credit card info but I don't know what would happen if they found something.

Offline Molinari

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2016, 12:36:40 pm »
Thanks for clarifying Nemo.  I'll try it out and if I get a hit I'll let you guys know.  

Offline orfew

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2016, 11:09:45 pm »
I submitted 2 coins but did not get any hits. I will definitely try again.

Offline ancientdave

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2016, 12:54:22 am »
This looks very interesting! I wonder what happens if you submit a single coin, that comes back with multiple hits for provenances? Would you have to pay to unlock each separate provenance? Presumably, you could have one coin that came back with multiple hits, possibly even at different price points. That could get spendy if there is no price break on multiple provenances for a single coin. Of course, this might not be a common occurrence. I'm going to give it a try, as well.

Offline carthago

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2016, 09:09:38 am »
This looks very interesting! I wonder what happens if you submit a single coin, that comes back with multiple hits for provenances? Would you have to pay to unlock each separate provenance? Presumably, you could have one coin that came back with multiple hits, possibly even at different price points. That could get spendy if there is no price break on multiple provenances for a single coin. Of course, this might not be a common occurrence. I'm going to give it a try, as well.

This service is discussed extensively elsewhere and the owner even posted a few times on the thread.  My understanding is that you only pay for the oldest provenance since it has a pricing structure where the pre 1971 hits cost more.  You will get all provenances found, however, for the price of the oldest.  It only includes pre 2000 auction records because that is where CoinArchives and AC Search start.  One participant with very high value coins had made some excellent finds, one being an early 20th century provenance for a colosseum sestertius

Apparently, some major auction houses are running their coins through it now too. 

I am going to do as McCabe in that it will be a last resort for me once I've exhausted my personal search on coins that are clearly old collection pieces.

Offline Carausius

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2016, 11:12:34 am »
I had heard of this service, but only now investigated their website in response to this thread. What I found interesting about their website was that, using my cell phone, I could not find any description of their catalogue database. The value of a  matching service like this depends on the strength of both their database (number and breadth of available comparison coins) and their matching software. I'd like to know more about the strength of their database before considering them - does it cover all major auction houses, minor auction houses, U.S and European houses, fixed price lists, collection catalogues of dispersed collections, etc.? I could not find this information in any detail, but maybe I mssed it as I was using my phone to search.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2016, 12:46:26 pm »
Quote from: Carausius on February 01, 2016, 11:12:34 am
I had heard of this service, but only now investigated their website in response to this thread. What I found interesting about their website was that, using my cell phone, I could not find any description of their catalogue database. The value of a  matching service like this depends on the strength of both their database (number and breadth of available comparison coins) and their matching software. I'd like to know more about the strength of their database before considering them - does it cover all major auction houses, minor auction houses, U.S and European houses, fixed price lists, collection catalogues of dispersed collections, etc.? I could not find this information in any detail, but maybe I mssed it as I was using my phone to search.

This is what it says on its database

Our database (built up over many years) represents a library of thousands of auction catalogues from every parts of the world: Ars Classica S.A, Adolph Hess Nachf., Dr. Jacob Hirsch, Otto Helbing, Münzen & Medaillen AG, Münzhandlung Basel, Sally Rosenberg, Felix Schlessinger, Adolph Hess AG & Bank Leu AG, Numismatica Ars Classica, Auctiones AG, Frank Sternberg AG, P& P. Santamaria, Schweizerischer Bankverein, Spink Taisei Numismatics Ltd, Glendining & Co. LTD, Rodolfo Ratto, Rolin & Feuardent and many more.

That's all majors, and most of those I've access to. FPLs seem to be the key to old provenances as so many mid level ancients went through FPLs in the early 20th century, coins which would be considered high-end material today.

Offline Carausius

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2016, 01:18:46 pm »
That's all majors, and most of those I've access to. FPLs seem to be the key to old provenances as so many mid level ancients went through FPLs in the early 20th century, coins which would be considered high-end material today.

Thanks, Andrew - I missed that!  I agree with your conclusion, that database summary is entirely major European auctions, many of which we already have access to. I imagine the list is only partial (likely geared to recognizable names for sales purposes), and perhaps out-of-date as they hopefully continue to add to their database on a regular basis.  Still, their database probably contains some of those 1 and 2 plate Republican sales that I'm unlikely to purchase for my library, and therefore may be worth a try when I've otherwise given-up the hunt for a particular coin.

Offline Molinari

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2016, 03:49:56 pm »
Unfortunately, I got no matches for my Aes Grave As.  I'm going to try my Calciati coins next.  I can't imagine they only appeared in the 80s.

Thanks for the additional info about earliest provenance, carthago.  That makes a lot of sense.

Offline Jordan Montgomery

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2016, 04:11:21 pm »
I submitted two coins to the service that had no known-to-me provenance past 2015, a Cr. 383/1a Fonteia denarius and a Cr. 44/7 anonymous sestertius. Both have some toning but not the dramatic toning that almost promises old provenance and both were high enough quality that I'd expect them to make the plates in older catalogs. Unfortunately I got no hits but I'm holding out hope that as they add new material I'll get a hit. I've completely exhausted my small library as well as the various online resources searching for these two so I'd be thrilled if they found something.
Gallery of my collection with notes and discussion of Republican history and numismatics

Offline paparoupa

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2016, 09:34:54 am »
It is a nice idea but with certain limitations:

Success rate depends on the image processing/matching algorithm they use. This also depends on the quality/angle etc of the photos. Your coin could be in a catalogue but the algorithm may not find it. I am surprised that they do not complement the service by normal text search; it is VERY fast to get results if you're clever enough to choose the right keywords.

I suspect that most of the people that tried didn't get any results or to say any exciting results. So you let people test your system to see how good it is and then they subscribe for a fee. If they get no results for 5 coins then they might not want to spend their money in a lottery...

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2016, 09:35:53 am »
Quote from: carthago on February 01, 2016, 09:09:38 am

This service is discussed extensively elsewhere and the owner even posted a few times on the thread.

Could you please provide a link? Thanks!

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2016, 06:56:31 am »
I've submitted 5 "looks like they should have a provenance" coins and am in anticipation.

If any Ex-Nvmis staff are reading this thread, they really should spend a few minutes to clean up the English language on their website. Apart from the countless grammatical errors and misspellings, I think I'd be pretty hacked off to find that the only title allowed for a female is "Dr." or "Mrs". I know that we are looking for 1910 provenances, but the idea that a woman has to state their marital status (but not a man) and that only women with doctorates or wedding certs may apply is barely 1910.

For the benefit of those who cannot find the site (not having google?), ex-numis.com or ex-nvmis.com both get you there.

Offline carthago

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2016, 12:04:30 am »
I've submitted 5 "looks like they should have a provenance" coins and am in anticipation.

If any Ex-Nvmis staff are reading this thread, they really should spend a few minutes to clean up the English language on their website. Apart from the countless grammatical errors and misspellings, I think I'd be pretty hacked off to find that the only title allowed for a female is "Dr." or "Mrs". I know that we are looking for 1910 provenances, but the idea that a woman has to state their marital status (but not a man) and that only women with doctorates or wedding certs may apply is barely 1910.

For the benefit of those who cannot find the site (not having google?), ex-numis.com or ex-nvmis.com both get you there.

Indeed, the spelling on the site is...interesting.

I submitted 5 of the many that have given me night sweats trying to find the provenances they deserve.  I'll let you know if anything is found.




Offline Carausius

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2016, 10:36:48 am »
Great coins, Carthago! I'd be very surprised if the first four aren't listed somewhere. The Caesar elephant might be tougher to find. Do let us know the results.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2016, 05:55:08 am »
I got a match on the first of my 5 gratis submissions. The other 4 show "not yet processed" so more are possible. Below is the information format (my submitted pic and their responses); it was from an auction catalogue that I don't have, so well worth the 25 francs in view of the quality of the coin. It was a retail purchase with no online record. I'm happy to now add a 1977 Swiss auction provenance! I guess I'll be trying some more.

Addendum: the other four drew blanks ("no positive match"). I believe two of the four have a Stack's 1970s provenance, at least they were in envelopes suggesting as much. That probably means there's limits to their databases. The other two are really rare pieces that looks like they should have featured in old auctions - I show them below - they are the two Pan / Silenus RRC 442 types. If anyone ever spots them, they can have the ex-nvmis bonus from me directly!

This sort of service can in principle only improve over time. Maybe if I checked on the same coins in two years time I'd get more matches.

Offline okidoki

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2016, 09:02:03 am »
All the Best,
Eric
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Offline Molinari

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2016, 10:27:04 am »
Glad to hear you got a match, Andrew.  I'm 0 for 3, but waiting on 2 more. 

Offline Carausius

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2016, 10:58:53 am »
Nice match, Andrew!

This sort of service can in principle only improve over time. Maybe if I checked on the same coins in two years time I'd get more matches.

This is true if they continue adding to their database, which they must do if they hope to grow their business.  Hopefully, they will also add some U.S. auctions to address your likely Stack's items.  

For what it's worth, I've seen a very similar business model employed quite successfully by genealogy database websites. They sell credits and charge for viewed "hits" on their database searches. Regularly, they send emails to their subscribers saying "We've added x,000 new records to our database. Come search again."   Imagine getting those emails on a regular basis from Ex Numis. It would be like "Old Auction Catalogue Madness" with a commercial, searchable twist.

Offline okidoki

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2016, 11:01:56 am »
its a smart business concept
All the Best,
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Offline carthago

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2016, 02:58:50 pm »

Offline Whizb4ng

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2016, 08:31:28 pm »

Offline Jochen

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2016, 05:24:13 pm »

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2016, 05:29:53 pm »

Offline Britannicus

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2016, 11:52:17 am »

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2016, 07:30:51 am »

Offline Molinari

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2016, 09:37:06 am »

Offline paparoupa

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2016, 09:53:27 am »

Offline Carausius

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2016, 10:21:03 am »

Offline Britannicus

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2016, 08:14:21 pm »

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2016, 09:38:42 pm »

Offline Britannicus

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2016, 09:42:50 pm »

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
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Offline Optimo Principi

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
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Offline JBF

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Re: EX-NVMIS?
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2018, 07:26:00 pm »

 

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