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Author Topic: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars  (Read 1515 times)

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Offline cscoppa

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VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« on: January 28, 2016, 02:05:59 pm »
I am having a hard time with this attribution. Here is what I have so far:
OBV: VRBS-ROMA, Roma bust- D4(RIC VII) helmet with plum, wearing Imperial mantle, left
REV: She Wolf (facing) with Twins, 3 Stars above (this is my sticking point), SCONS :Greek_Gamma: in EX ( :Greek_Gamma: could be a T)
Dia: 17.7mm x 18.4mm slightly oblong, wt. 2.8 grams, Die Rotation 180 degrees.

All of this points to Arles, but the 3 Stars. Does anyone have any help? Thanks, good to be back poking around here.
PLEASE SEE THE ATTACHED pictures.
Chip

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Offline maridvnvm

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Re: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2016, 02:43:32 pm »
Chip,
I saw this coin on another board from an uncleaned lot posted elsewhere in the last few days.
Same dies?
Martin

Offline Victor C

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Re: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2016, 02:48:50 pm »
it is probably unofficial, though the style is good.


edit- this is in response to an email --

"Yes, I believe that the coin is most likely unofficial. The style is good, but many unofficial coins have very good style, so good that only a specialist might notice. Pierre Bastien even speculated that mint employees sometimes moonlighted and made some unofficial coins. Despite the good style, there are some problems...obviously, the first is the star. There is an VRBS ROMA with star, but it is in the exergue -- see RIC VII Arles 351.  Perhaps a mint engraver was confused and placed the star at the top, but there are a few other issues. The bust is fairly narrow at the base, typically this area is more spread out. On the reverse, the wolf's head looks unusual, with a small snout. The haunches are raised very high, generally the wolf's back is more horizontal, or slopes down not up. Exceptions can always be found and the stylistic differences alone are not such a big problem, but coupled with the star it makes a lot of difference. At best, I would say it might be an engravers error that slipped out of the mint, but I am more inclined to believe that it is unofficial."

looking at the picture again, I noticed that the stars are also different from normal. Usually they are in a straight line, on this coin the left star is well below the right one.
Victor Clark

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Offline Holding_History

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Re: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2016, 05:05:24 pm »
Very interesting, I collected these for a while and never ran across one of those.
All the best,
Nathan

Offline Vincent

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Re: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2016, 05:34:49 pm »
This issue looks official in my eyes, especially with an additional example posted by Martin.
Arelate (Arles), produced many symbols in this spot, Chi Rho, leaf, circle, pine tree, to name a few.
I like your coin and we may add yours to the list in my opinion.
Interesting these Late Roman Bronze coins.

Offline SC

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    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2016, 07:15:55 pm »
The type with three stars is official.  It is not in RIC but it is in Ferrando's catalogue of the coins of Arelate.

It is his number 957.

He cites 18 known examples versus 76 examples for the star in exergue type.

The example he illustrates has the three stars level, not slanted to the left like yours. It is clear on his that the middle star is a little bit smaller and does not have the tiny dots on the end of the rays like the two regular stars.  Hard to tell on yours but it seems to be the same re the dots. Not sure if it is smaller.

The wolf is the same as the one Ferrando shows. Interestingly this wolf is also used for the issue with  :crescent: between the stars, which he lists right before, but not for the issue with the star in the exergue which he lists right after.


Shawn
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Offline Victor C

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Re: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2016, 07:55:08 pm »
The type with three stars is official.  It is not in RIC but it is in Ferrando's catalogue of the coins of Arelate.

just because Ferrando says something does not mean it is necessarily true. This is the same book that has many of the monneron coins illustrated as fakes. Having said that though, the example he illustrates seems to be perfectly fine style, versus the coins illustrated in this post. The wolf is also not the same, it has very little arch, though as I already said, exceptions can be found.

Victor Clark

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Offline Vincent

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Re: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2016, 09:45:18 pm »
The companion issue honoring Constantinoplis features a star in the field. So there is direct link to an official mint issue of the star control mark

Constantinopolis Commemorative

Obv. CONSTAN-TINOPOLIS laureate, helmeted, wearing imperial mantle, holding scepter.

Rev. Victory stg. on prow, holding long scepter in r. hand, and resting l. hand on shield; in left field

in ex. PCONST

RIC VII Arles 352

Offline Victor C

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Re: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2016, 09:47:20 pm »
The companion issue honoring Constantinoplis features a star in the field. So there is direct link to an official mint issue of the star control mark

Vincent, I don't think that anyone has said that stars could not be official control marks.
Victor Clark

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Offline SC

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Re: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2016, 09:57:57 am »
There are two issues.

Is the three star VRBS ROMA a legit issue?  I am sure that Ferrando is correct that it is. There are enough around and they parallel star issues of the GR and CONSTANTINOPOLIS.

Is cscoppa's coin official or an imitation?  Hard to be sure. Stylistically it is quite good. Other than the stars being on an off angle I don't see any major problem. It is either a poor quality official - amateur hour at the mint - or a very good quality imitation.

Shawn
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Offline Vincent

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Re: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2016, 11:16:15 am »
Yes, the middle star has a different than the others, more reason to indicate it is a control mark.
Thank you, Shawn, your comments make the most sense.

Offline cscoppa

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Re: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2016, 10:39:11 am »
Thanks to all of that weighed in on this. Your help has been great for me.
Chip

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Offline areich

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Re: VRBS-ROMA She Wolf & Twins 3 Stars
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2016, 12:11:12 pm »
Really long time no see,  Chip!  ;D
Andreas Reich

 

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