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Author Topic: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?  (Read 2030 times)

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Offline Romanorum

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Has anyone seen anything like this?
Someone took the time to make a groove all around the edge of this sestertius. Might they have had a practical purpose for doing this? It appears that the legend on both sides was also hammered flat. A weight? A toy? A bored guy?

Offline Molinari

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2015, 04:10:27 pm »
I think that's the seam where two halves were merged together, which was then flattened and smoothed out.  

EDIT: I was referring to the obverse and reverse, not the edge.  The photo didn't show up on my iPhone.  Now that I see that I still think it is someone concealing a forgery or less likely mounting it for jewelry.

Offline Romanorum

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2015, 05:02:08 pm »
Now that I see that I still think it is someone concealing a forgery or less likely mounting it for jewelry.

The groove lines are patinated like the rest of the coin. This was done in ancient times, and obviously not a forgery because that would be pretty sloppy.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2015, 05:13:01 pm »
I'd be interested to know how you explain the visible seam on the reverse of the coin.  To me, this looks like a pretty mediocre cast forgery.  The patina in the edge crevice could easily have developed in the past 50 years or so.  It isn't as if it is a thick patina.  There are also general problems with the surfaces that indicate it is cast, like what appears to be a raised area where the inscriptions should be.

What does the coin weigh?

Offline *Alex

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2015, 05:14:37 pm »
Some sort of proto-contorniate possibly.

From Wikipedia:
A contorniate, or contourniate, is a species of medal or medallion of bronze, having a deep furrow on the contour or edge, as if the object had been turned in the lathe.

Some early large Roman bronzes were converted into contorniates in the later years of the Empire.

Alex

Offline Romanorum

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2015, 05:49:37 pm »


What does the coin weigh?

Coin weight is 20.25.

Offline Romanorum

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2015, 05:51:00 pm »
Some sort of proto-contorniate possibly.

From Wikipedia:
A contorniate, or contourniate, is a species of medal or medallion of bronze, having a deep furrow on the contour or edge, as if the object had been turned in the lathe.

Some early large Roman bronzes were converted into contorniates in the later years of the Empire.

Alex

But contortionate grooves are done on the surface of the coin, not on the edges.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2015, 05:54:56 pm »
I've seen one of these before posted here.  Trying to remember where but I think it was Curtis Clay who responded.  I will try to find it.

Offline Romanorum

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2015, 06:20:48 pm »
I've seen one of these before posted here.  Trying to remember where but I think it was Curtis Clay who responded.  I will try to find it.

Thanks Jay!

Offline Jay GT4

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Offline Romanorum

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2015, 03:54:52 am »
Thanks, Jay. I don't think that article pertains to this coin, however. There are no two halves of two sestertii here, and whoever did this back when wasn't trying to hide anything. The coin is battered in many ways, and whoever did this was certainly not trying to fool anyone. Who would you fool by carving a groove on the edge of a sestertius? And what would they be fooled about?

Offline Molinari

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2015, 07:09:23 am »
How do you know there aren't two halves?

It could be a practice piece the forger used before trying it with two nicer halves.  Or someone who discovered the (to me) very clear seam on the reverse was trying to uncover just how the piece was constructed, since it was worthless at that point anyway.

I would be very surprised if this turned out to be a genuine ancient coin altered in antiquity.  I find that the least likely scenario, especially because of the seam visible on the reverse.

If it is real, how do you explain:

1. The obverse and reverse legends that are just raised areas (not worn, just raised)
2. The seam visible on the reverse

I'm only asking because I want to know.  I hope your coin does turn out to be real.

Offline Romanorum

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2015, 04:26:58 pm »
How do you know there aren't two halves?

It could be a practice piece the forger used before trying it with two nicer halves.  Or someone who discovered the (to me) very clear seam on the reverse was trying to uncover just how the piece was constructed, since it was worthless at that point anyway.

I would be very surprised if this turned out to be a genuine ancient coin altered in antiquity.  I find that the least likely scenario, especially because of the seam visible on the reverse.

If it is real, how do you explain:

1. The obverse and reverse legends that are just raised areas (not worn, just raised)
2. The seam visible on the reverse

I'm only asking because I want to know.  I hope your coin does turn out to be real.


My initial question was about the possible purpose of someone doing this because I find it fascinating that someone would. Again, it wouldn't make sense to pretend to make a fake and then make it look like this. I don't think a forger would go through the trouble of making a "practice piece" that would make no sense at all. The "seam" on the reverse is the edge of the coin hammered in after having made the groove. The coin was already quite worn when someone did this. The patination is clearly even both inside the groove and outside, so it is ancient. Why would anyone make a groove like this in order to fake a coin? The obverse and reverse legends are not "raised", they are hammered in. The coin is real indeed, but the question remains, what purpose did anyone have for doing this?
All that said, I'll be happy to lend it to you so you can examine it in hand, if you pm me your mailing address.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2015, 04:54:12 pm »


My initial question was about the possible purpose of someone doing this because I find it fascinating that someone would. Again, it wouldn't make sense to pretend to make a fake and then make it look like this. I don't think a forger would go through the trouble of making a "practice piece" that would make no sense at all. The "seam" on the reverse is the edge of the coin hammered in after having made the groove. The coin was already quite worn when someone did this. The patination is clearly even both inside the groove and outside, so it is ancient. Why would anyone make a groove like this in order to fake a coin? The obverse and reverse legends are not "raised", they are hammered in. The coin is real indeed, but the question remains, what purpose did anyone have for doing this?
All that said, I'll be happy to lend it to you so you can examine it in hand, if you pm me your mailing address.

Pieces of this nature, adapted for some practical or decorative use, are very interesting. I've seen many different examples. In one case an ancient coin made into what is clearly a machine cog. Another made as a support for a table leg. I've an aes grave that seems fashioned into some sort of wedge for machine use. In some cases these alterations may be decorative. In this case, it's possibly adapted for a very ordinary practical use - to hold a roll of thin thread or hold a string in place, as part of a plumb-bob weight system.

I've no doubt it's genuine.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2015, 06:14:58 pm »
How do you know there aren't two halves?

It could be a practice piece the forger used before trying it with two nicer halves.  Or someone who discovered the (to me) very clear seam on the reverse was trying to uncover just how the piece was constructed, since it was worthless at that point anyway.

I would be very surprised if this turned out to be a genuine ancient coin altered in antiquity.  I find that the least likely scenario, especially because of the seam visible on the reverse.

If it is real, how do you explain:

1. The obverse and reverse legends that are just raised areas (not worn, just raised)
2. The seam visible on the reverse

I'm only asking because I want to know.  I hope your coin does turn out to be real.


The "seam" on the reverse is the edge of the coin hammered in after having made the groove. The coin was already quite worn when someone did this. The patination is clearly even both inside the groove and outside, so it is ancient. Why would anyone make a groove like this in order to fake a coin? The obverse and reverse legends are not "raised", they are hammered in.
No need to send it.  That explains everything.  To my eyes it looked awkwardly raised!

Offline Romanorum

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2015, 07:41:13 pm »

Pieces of this nature, adapted for some practical or decorative use, are very interesting. I've seen many different examples. In one case an ancient coin made into what is clearly a machine cog. Another made as a support for a table leg. I've an aes grave that seems fashioned into some sort of wedge for machine use. In some cases these alterations may be decorative. In this case, it's possibly adapted for a very ordinary practical use - to hold a roll of thin thread or hold a string in place, as part of a plumb-bob weight system.

I've no doubt it's genuine.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Andrew, and thanks for all the information. Glad you find it interesting!

Offline Romanorum

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2015, 07:43:18 pm »

No need to send it.  That explains everything.  To my eyes it looked awkwardly raised!

Yes, I suppose it's harder to see if the coin is not in hand. Thanks for the comments.

Offline SC

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2015, 03:43:44 pm »
I agree with Andrew that it looks genuine.  Examining the edges under 20x or better might reveal some tool marks.  I don't mean marks of modern "tooling" but the marks of whatever tools were used to create this odd edge.  It is sometimes possible to distinguish ancient from modern tool marks.

Shawn
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Romanorum

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Re: Interesting grooved-edge Antoninus Pius sestertius. What could it be for?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2015, 12:02:56 am »
I agree with Andrew that it looks genuine.  Examining the edges under 20x or better might reveal some tool marks.  I don't mean marks of modern "tooling" but the marks of whatever tools were used to create this odd edge.  It is sometimes possible to distinguish ancient from modern tool marks.

Shawn


Yes, I've examined it under 20x. Quite precise job on the groove, so they must have used some sort of lathe-like system to do it. It is a quite elaborate piece. I have experimented with dead coins, including sestertii, to see how hard the metal is, and it is quite hard. Not easy to do this to a coin.

 

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