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Author Topic: Do Fakes keep other Numismatists out of Collecting Ancient Coins?  (Read 1785 times)

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Offline Scott H2

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I just got off the phone with a prominent numismatic dealer in British Columbia, who specializes in a variety of Canadian decimal and token coinage. I mentioned my new interest in ancient coinage (I've known him for years and have never been a customer) and he advised me that of his 40+ years in the market that (at least in Canada) the presence of so many forgeries and the lack of trust in buying them has turned off many numismatists.

I never really thought of this. We were talking a lot about exit strategy: making sure you have a plan for when you retire and that family or friends understand what to do with coins we die unexpectedly. But it got me thinking. Have others noticed this particular experience? Do you know other numismatists (collectors and dealers) who steer clear of ancients because of a lack of trust? I figure most people collect what they like but the trust level I have to imagine has some weight on the decision. Other factors might include the legality (import/export), studying ancient language, unexpected hoards, etc.

I'm new to ancients and I'm not trying to stir up any controversy. I'm still going to collect what I like but it makes me wonder what the average collector thinks. Are there those that switched over from other disciplines of collecting? How much does the presence of forgeries weigh in on your ability to sell when you upgrade or decided that you are done with the hobby?

Offline Molinari

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Re: Do Fakes keep other Numismatists out of Collecting Ancient Coins?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2015, 06:48:01 pm »
When I first started I was very paranoid that essentially everything was fake, but that passed after a year or two.  I suspect many people get scared away in that "initiation" period but for me it was not a choice.  I was hooked.  The greatest difference is that, with ancients, you certainly have to know a lot more about the coins you are buying if you are not buying from reputable sources.  I think there is less concern for contemporary coinage since things are much more standardized.  However, once you have a certain level of experience some of the irregularities you encounter that make each ancient coin unique (patina type, wear patterns, strike, die condition, corrosion/encrustations) are those indicators that help authenticate.

Offline Bill W4

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Re: Do Fakes keep other Numismatists out of Collecting Ancient Coins?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2015, 07:55:57 pm »
When I started, I was "wow these are old and cheap on ebay".  Didn't spend much on any coin and bought lots of uncleaned.  From what I've learned here and other sites; I think I was fortunate and didn't buy any fakes.  I now adhere to the" know the dealer or know the coin" philosophy which seems to be serving me well.  I collected 19th century US stamps for years before getting into ancients.  Same problems; repaired, re perforated, and altered stamps.  You learn what is good and what isn't.  Part of the game I suppose. Word to the wise  ; don't expect to make money with your collection.  My stamps cataloged over $10,000;  best offer I got was $500.  Wrote it off as a tax loss.  So it goes.
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Offline Zaph0dd

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Re: Do Fakes keep other Numismatists out of Collecting Ancient Coins?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2015, 08:32:19 pm »
Absolutely,

Ive met a few dealers and collectors that wont touch ancients due to not having knowledge to spot even obvious fakes, so far as one old chap who was/is convinced that EVERYTHING on ebay is a forgery, without any remote chance that there could really be honest dealers.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Do Fakes keep other Numismatists out of Collecting Ancient Coins?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2015, 08:51:33 pm »
Scott,

Every collectible area has its fakes, whether ancient coins, modern coins, Dutch master oil paintings, or antiques. The fact is, genuine ancient coins are common and affordable to all levels of collectors.  The key is to either buy from expert, trustworthy sellers who can weed-out the occasional fakes for you, or learn enough about your collecting area so that you can spot the fakes yourself.  Many beginning collectors make the mistake of buying from inexpert sellers (i.e. eBay) and may get burned from time to time - they may feel dejected and assume fakes are everywhere.  Modern coin dealers might read articles about million dollar ancient coin fakes, and assume that such sales are the norm in the ancient coin marketplace.  Actually, such fakes are aberrations if you either buy from expert ancient coin sellers or do the homework to learn what real coins look and feel like. Bottom line is that statements about the high percentage of fakes in the ancient coin marketplace are generally made out of ignorance about the coins and the marketplace.  The coins are common and easily authenticated with experience. The marketplace of dedicated, expert dealers and collectors is large and strong.

Selling ancient coins to your modern dealer friend would be like trying to sell a Rembrandt to a print shop. Dealers generally only buy what they know. A quick internet search will show you that there are plenty of dedicated ancient coin dealers.  So, there should be no difficulty selling genuine ancient coins to ancient coin dealers or ancient coin collectors, if the coins are desirable. Like all collectibles, desirability is a function of condition, rarity and demand at the time of sale. Of course there are other desirability factors (style, strike etc.) that are specific to ancient coins as well.  If resale is a particular concern of yours, many will advise to buy the best quality coins you can afford, as these will be easiest to sell later.  Others may advise to not buy ancient coins (or, really, any coins) for investment because it is difficult to buy coins at retail and expect to sell them for a profit in the short term.  Long term profits are possible, but probably slim compared to long term investment in the stock market or real estate.  Collect because you enjoy the coins, the process, the research and the camaraderie.



Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Do Fakes keep other Numismatists out of Collecting Ancient Coins?
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2015, 11:12:20 pm »
Hi Scott,

During the course of my ancient coin collecting (17 years now), I've very rarely worried about fakes.

And there is a simple reason for that: I only buy from respected and reputable dealers.

Not having internet access for 90% of my collecting years helped a lot. I wasn't "tempted" by ebay and other notorious sites.

In my early years of collecting, my family's financial adviser tried to steer me away from collecting ancient coins. He actually told my family members to try to force me to stop collecting them, because (in his words), "More than 50% are counterfeits". Over the years, this caused my family members to make some idiotic statements to me about my collecting.


Additionally, it is typical for dealers in antique "modern" coins to not know much about (or even fear) ancients. That is very common. I have an old family friend who is an antique US coin dealer. He fits that description.

Meepzorp

Offline Scott H2

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Re: Do Fakes keep other Numismatists out of Collecting Ancient Coins?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2015, 11:15:00 am »
Thanks for the feedback guys. I was just curious in relation to the exit strategy. When we decide to move on to another series, another theme, different kind of numismatics, different collectibles or completely out of the game it would be nice to have some forward thinking for liquidity sake. No, I'm not talking about investing and get rich. I've collected other things in the past and some of them have been liquid and others have not. You guys are right, the dealer is largely biased by his lack of knowledge in ancients, his unwarranted freight and his unwillingness to trust others who are qualified. Perhaps my question might be better phrased, is he in the majority?

Again, I'll collect what I want and what I like but I will make modifications to allow for that exit strategy. As you guys have just taught me: focus on quality when you can, buy from reputable dealers and try to get items of provenance.

Offline paparoupa

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Re: Do Fakes keep other Numismatists out of Collecting Ancient Coins?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2015, 11:39:20 am »
Thanks for the feedback guys. I was just curious in relation to the exit strategy. When we decide to move on to another series, another theme, different kind of numismatics, different collectibles or completely out of the game it would be nice to have some forward thinking for liquidity sake. No, I'm not talking about investing and get rich. I've collected other things in the past and some of them have been liquid and others have not. You guys are right, the dealer is largely biased by his lack of knowledge in ancients, his unwarranted freight and his unwillingness to trust others who are qualified. Perhaps my question might be better phrased, is he in the majority?

Again, I'll collect what I want and what I like but I will make modifications to allow for that exit strategy. As you guys have just taught me: focus on quality when you can, buy from reputable dealers and try to get items of provenance.

When/if the time to sell your collection comes, then consign it to one of the numerous auctions available worldwide. You will have the possibility get 50-150% of your money assuming that you are a conservative bidder. If you go to sell your collection to a dealer don't expect to get more than 50% of what you have paid.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Do Fakes keep other Numismatists out of Collecting Ancient Coins?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2015, 12:23:55 pm »
Perhaps my question might be better phrased, is he in the majority?


I suppose so, but only because a majority of coin dealers aren't ancient coin experts.  Go to a typical coin show and you will find 95 modern coin dealers to 5 dedicated ancient coin dealers.  Actually, the numbers may be more lopsided than that, but you get my point.  Going back to my original metaphor, you would not sell your Rembrandt to a print shop; rather, you would go to a fine art dealer/auction house.  Similarly, you would not sell your ancient coins to the majority of dealers that know nothing about ancient coins; you would offer them to one or more of the many, expert, dedicated ancient coin dealers.

Offline Bill W4

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Re: Do Fakes keep other Numismatists out of Collecting Ancient Coins?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2015, 08:16:39 pm »
If you are collecting with an exit strategy in mind, I would advise you to keep all of your purchase receipts.  They may come in handy at some point.
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Offline Scott H2

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Re: Do Fakes keep other Numismatists out of Collecting Ancient Coins?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2015, 09:32:25 pm »
Quote from: Carausius on August 26, 2015, 12:23:55 pm
Perhaps my question might be better phrased, is he in the majority?


I suppose so, but only because a majority of coin dealers aren't ancient coin experts.  Go to a typical coin show and you will find 95 modern coin dealers to 5 dedicated ancient coin dealers.  Actually, the numbers may be more lopsided than that, but you get my point.  Going back to my original metaphor, you would not sell your Rembrandt to a print shop; rather, you would go to a fine art dealer/auction house.  Similarly, you would not sell your ancient coins to the majority of dealers that know nothing about ancient coins; you would offer them to one or more of the many, expert, dedicated ancient coin dealers.

Yeah I guess that sums it up Carausius. Building a relationship and getting to know the major ancient coin dealers and auctions houses will be the way to go.

And Bill, I keep every single receipt or the best transaction records for all of my purchases because even with my 19th century collection, their is fascination and often premiums associated with provenance.

Offline Obryzum

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Re: Do Fakes keep other Numismatists out of Collecting Ancient Coins?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2015, 01:11:33 am »
[...] their is fascination and often premiums associated with provenance.

Anyone worried about buying fakes can reduce their risk over expensive coins if both of the following conditions are met: (i) only if they have a reasonably long and established provenance, and (ii) from a reputable dealer.  There are a lot of coins out there that can pass both tests.  For inexpensive coins, it doesn't matter so much, does it? 

Of course, everyone will draw the line between "expensive" and "inexpensive" at a different point.   

 

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