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Author Topic: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia  (Read 3342 times)

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Online Molinari

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Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« on: July 14, 2015, 01:04:54 pm »
Here attached is what I believe is a winged man-faced bull from Cilicia, which the seller described as a "horned, winged animal."

CILICIA, Tarsos. After 164 BC. Æ 21mm (14.82 gm). Draped, veiled and turreted bust of Tyche right / TARSEW[N], Sandan standing right on horned, winged animal, within a pyramidal monument surmounted by an eagle; two monograms left. SNG Levante 947 (this coin); SNG France 1307 var. (monograms); BMC Lycaonia pg. 181, 112; SNG Copenhagen 335; SNG von Aulock 5971 var. (same).

I've asked the seller for a high res photo which I will post.

Very exciting, but this is the only variety where it appears to be a man-faced bull.  All the others are unclear.


Offline Arados

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2015, 02:38:42 pm »
I don't think there's any doubt Nick, well spotted. Irrefutably a new type that needs adding to your extensive library of MFB's.  +++

Offline Enodia

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2015, 04:07:24 pm »
undoubtedly man-faced Nick, but are we convinced about "winged"?
hard to tell from the image, but it looks to me like there is at least a possibility of the 'wings' being another part of the design element.

just speculatin',
~ Peter

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2015, 06:13:07 pm »
It might not have wings.  The trouble I'm encountering now is that no other examples are clear and there are contemporaneous issues that depict Sandan on a winged horned lion. I wonder, could the iconography have changed over time?  At one point, a winged MFB reminiscent of earlier (4th century) coins from tarsos, and later a winged lion? I've seen examples of the same reverse motif on 2nd century Roman Provinial coins, so it was certainly around for awhile.

Sandan is apparently equated with Herakles, so either pairing (MFB or lion) works. 

But this, the clearest and most artistic example, is remarkably obvious to me, and I will be very surprised if the better photo reveals an accidental MFB.

Offline Enodia

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2015, 07:39:53 pm »
i'm at work now and can see the image better. it does kinda look like wings folded back against the bull's body, something i couldn't define on my home monitor.
cool coin regardless!

~ Peter

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2015, 10:14:47 pm »
Hi Nick,

Yes, it does look like a MFB. I am shocked. I never expected to see one on this issue.

I actually have one of these coins. I think mine is inconclusive. Hopefully, I'll be posting my photos soon.

Meepzorp

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2015, 04:41:27 pm »
I've found another example, with the same devices in the fields, and was lucky enough to acquire it.  I think most people overlook it as a common Tarsos bronze, but so far it is the second known (I've searched the major online market databases and the BnF).

A little bronze corrosion that I removed and will keep an eye on, but should I need to do treatment it has no real patina anyway.


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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2015, 07:42:58 pm »
If anyone has SNG von Aulock (3) could you please post a pic of no.5971.  It is allegedly the same variety so I'm assuming that example also shows an MFB.

Offline Brennos

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2015, 02:37:47 pm »
If anyone has SNG von Aulock (3) could you please post a pic of no.5971.  It is allegedly the same variety so I'm assuming that example also shows an MFB.

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2015, 03:51:23 pm »
Thanks, Brennos.  I was thrown off by the description, which had "var." but also "same" in parenthesis.  Clearly different, however.

Offline ancientone

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2015, 09:53:46 pm »
Hi Nick!  I believe this is a variation of your coin with MFB. I remember thinking that the animal did not look horned when it was acquired. PM me if you are interested.

Regards,

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2015, 07:05:21 pm »
Yes, same devices in field and I see the profile of the face.  The body is a bit flat- maybe a weak strike or perhaps wear?

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2015, 12:24:46 pm »
Received the high-res pic today :)

You can even see the hairs in the beard, despite its incredibly small size.  It would be really interesting to see how these developed over time and went from a beautiful MFB to basically a line with four other lines to indicate legs and a ball for a head.

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2015, 08:41:18 am »
The deity standing on the back of a beast is a motif going back to the Hittites, who used it on a lot of their sculptures.  I wonder if any of the Hittite beasts have human heads?

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2015, 12:09:37 pm »
I believe this is Sandan-Herakles, stemming from Sandan who himself stems from the Hittite Teshub/Tarhun, who in turn is from the Mesopotamian Adad!  There are Mesopotamian and Levantine seals that show similar figures standing on man-faced bulls, so it was a fairly common motif.

I've done a brief write up for the entry in our book.  Really interesting stuff.  We see a similar figure above the forepart of a man-faced bull on another issue from Cilicia.  See the last coin listed here:

https://manfacedbullsar.wordpress.com/mallos/

 

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2016, 01:44:45 pm »
A new monogram and hence a new variety not listed in Potamikon! The beard is very clear in hand but alas, I'm a terrible photographer.

I'm now convinced this is Acheloios below Herakles-Sandan (at least on these two varieties). I read a Celator article from way back that mentioned Dio Chrysostom- apparently he visited Tarsus and spoke about the pyre built for Herakles, which mimics the story of his deification on Mt. Oeta.  The best part is, that story, from Sophocles' Trachiniae, is all about Acheloios too- the fight is mentioned twice, Herakles has just ravaged the land of the "good bull" (Euboea), Kypris plays an essential role, and water (read Acheloios, as Sophocles equates the two in framgment 4) activates the cloak that tortures Herakles!  There's much more too that I'm including in an essay about the play and this coin type. Clearly, the original artist knew the tradition well!




Offline Arados

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2016, 04:20:45 am »
A new monogram and hence a new variety not listed in Potamikon! The beard is very clear in hand but alas, I'm a terrible photographer.

There seems to be crud/dirt overlapping the neck (brisket) and lower torso (barrel) regions of the MFB. But regardless of the coins imperfections, i do believe your right Nick.

Congratulations on finding a new variety.

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2016, 09:11:17 am »
Thank you for assembling that!

Under the loupe the face is fairly clear, especially the human nose and lines of the beard. I'm assembling a collection of images of all these types so hopefully I can arrange a reasonable chronology at some point.  There might already be one though, I certainly haven't read all the literature.  As far as the market goes they use the general dating from Head.

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2016, 10:33:53 am »
Here's the best I could do to capture it.


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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2017, 12:14:51 pm »
I'm continuing my research into this type and need a BIG favor.

Could someone who has SNG Levant and SNG France give me the numbers for the complete run of this type?  I know the specific numbers for the varieties I'm writing about, but not the numbers covering all types.  If you could provide the page ranges that would also be very helpful.  Also, the specific volume numbers so I can request a photocopy of the plates through ILL document delivery.

Thanks!

Nick

Offline Akropolis

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2017, 03:08:33 pm »
I wonder if there is any relationship of these bronze coins to the drachms and tetradrachms of Antiochos VII and VIII with Sandan standing atop an animal?
My brief CNG search shows descriptions of a winged lion, horned and winged lion, a horned bull, and a  horned lion-griffin.
Some pictures shown above are indisputable man-faced bulls.
PeteB

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2017, 04:05:27 pm »
They are certainly related.  I think originally the type with pyre was intended for the Herakles Acheloios scene, recalling his Apotheosis on a pyre, all under the power of Zeus, represented by the eagle (see the last line of the play- "all this is not but Zeus!). We know the people of Tarsos burned an effigy of Herakles on a pyre every year in his honor (as the city's founder), and Acheloios plays an essential role in the apotheosis per Sophocles' account (in The Women of Trachis).

The type with figure on beast (no pyre) probably indicated Sandan, whose predecessors (Teshub, etc.) were often depicted with wings and standing on a lion or bull.

So, my guess is that after the initial series things got understandably confusing, especially since Herakles and Sandan were conflated, hence the various creatures beneath the figure on both types.

Alternatively, there are a lot of instances of monsters or the centaur Chiron in Sophocles' account, so perhaps the pyre-type variations are in part due to that. Centaur is from the Greek Kentaur, meaning (IMO) like-bull.


Offline esnible

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2017, 12:43:30 am »
I'm continuing my research into this type and need a BIG favor.

Could someone who has SNG Levant and SNG France give me the numbers for the complete run of this type?

I have SNG France.  The Tyche/Pyramid of Sandan is SNG France 1307-1343 AND 1433-1434.  So plate 66, 67, and 71, plus the facing text.

The reverse showing Sandan and the animal without the pyramid runs 1270-1276, 1295-1306, and 1344-1353. 

The reverse showing Sandan and the animal with the pyramid is also used on imperial coins but there are attendants in the scene and the animal is too small to understand.

I don't have the regular SNG Levante but I have the supplement.  253 (with pyramid) and 254 (without), both on plate 20.

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Re: Fabulous winged man-faced bull from Cilicia
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2017, 02:49:06 pm »
Thanks, Ed, this is very helpful.

 

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