Hellenistic Greece Silver Tetradrachm 136-135 BC Coin

[Kevin C5]

Any ideas to tell this coins authenticity.   Hellenistic Greece silver tetradrachm 136-135 BC - obv: goddess Athena wearing a crested helmet rev: owl standing on amphora, club, lion & bowcase right.  Weight 16.9 grams silver.

[Molinari]

You should post in the authentication section.  Is there a reason you suspect the coin, or are you screening a purchase?

[Kevin C5]

I did not know I should post this in another section.   I appreciate you letting me know.   I've had this coin for awhile, and just wanted to know is there any characteristics to assure its genuine and real for this time period?

[Molinari]

It certainly looks real to me.  The only confusing thing is that the area in the field where the control mark usually appears, to the right of the owl's feet, appears to have been erased.  I wonder why?  Someone who specializes in this type could certainly tell you more.

[Kevin C5]

I don't know that much about control marks?   But from looking at it with a loop in that area it looks more worn than erase?  And I could be wrong?  I'm open to any suggestions?

[Molinari]

It wouldn't make sense for just that one area to be worn and the rest of the coin not.  Perhaps the die was clogged when this coin was struck.

[Kevin C5]

I don't know?  Modern dies are usually plugged/clogged with grease?   I wonder is the same during this period?

[Carausius]

It certainly looks real to me.  The only confusing thing is that the area in the field where the control mark usually appears, to the right of the owl's feet, appears to have been erased.  I wonder why?  Someone who specializes in this type could certainly tell you more.

I'm not a "specialist", but I can tell you that there is no control mark in the right rev field of these magistrates' issues.  The only control mark (club draped with lion skin over bow in case) is in the left field.  Your coin looks genuine to me, and it appears to be an obverse die match to Thompson, The New Style Silver Coinage of Athens, 339. 

[cicerokid]

Hi,

The size and weight are fine. The appearance seems OK .

This is the first definite 3 magistrate issue of the Athens New Style Hellenistic coinage.

The obverse is 339 as previously identified.

The reference is Thompson, M "The New Style silver coinage of Athens" ANS 10 1961 which is now available on-line via Forum's BOOKS & REFERNCES discussion titled,
 
"ANS - a magnificent gesture for us all  ". It is in there somewhere , I have my own copy of Thompson so don't need it.

The reverse is not in Thompson, but a quick look at CNG coins research throws up a reverse with HP as its 2nd control for that magistrate combination for the Bow, Club & Lionskin symboled type. It however does not look an exact  reverse die match to me.


AC search and others may throw up a congruent match for your coin.


Pity there appears to be no readable month date on the amphora but probably Lambda is likely as the 1st control.


No doubt though since 1961 it has been recognised since many many New Styles have appeared since 1961.

The modern generally accepted date is c136/5 BC.

Read Thompson even though it is 50+ years old it is magnificent and most of the information other than the dating, which had a disastrous effect on some aspects, is still current.


It is nice to see that someone has an interest in buying a New Style. Research though is more interesting than just collecting IMHO!

Cheers

Cicerokid

[Kevin C5]

I appreciate all your input regarding the coin.   Seems I found something similar to this coin.    What is strange is there's no markings on the amphora?  Not that it has been worn off but actually stamped this way?   And this is the same with the lettering to the right of the owls claw.   I was assuming that this was worn but it seems it was stamped this way?   Very odd?  The coin I found online, pictured below, with this same similar erased effect?   Maybe a weak stamping?   Also, if noticed the three marks above the owls head?

ATTICA, Athens. Circa 165-42 BC. AR Tetradrachm (32.5mm, 16.84 g, 11h). New Style coinage. Hera–, Aristoph–, and Polych–, magistrates. Struck 136/5 BC. Helmeted head of Athena right / Owl standing right, head facing, on amphora; magistrates' names in fields; to left, club facing downward, draped in lion skin and set over bow in case; [A on amphora]; all within laurel wreath. Thompson 331a (same dies). VF, lightly toned, minor die flaw on obverse.

[cicerokid]

The next coin in the series (Asklepios with staff and snake), which I also have an example is in excellent condition but the amphora date is worn off whilst the rest is in good condition.

This coins reverse too was unknown in Thompson.

My New Style collection  ( 44 coins) is in the members gallery


Regards


John

[Kevin C5]

What's your thinking regarding Thompson being so through,  in that would miss accounting for the reverse on this coin? Seems so odd?    During this time period you ever heard of stamping the reverse with another years reverse in error?     What would you guess the value of this coin would be?

[Carausius]

The reverse isn't  missing  in Thompson's text. I'm not home right now, but I believe this reverse variety or something quite similar is listed as (i) and (j) with obverse die 339. However, it is not included in the plates. Not all the die combinations listed in Thompson's text are included in the plates, so this is not unusual.  In any event, Thompson was written 50 years ago, and many new die varieties have been discovered since then.

[cicerokid]

Looking at Thompson catalogue for obverse 339 with the associated reverses with third magistrate E Pi ISTP  there is no 2nd control with HP combination.

Looking at other obverse 335 there is a E Pi ISTP A with an HP 2nd control (335i in Thompson), which might be congruent reverse- wise with kelvin's coin but is not in plates.

However  it is paired with a different obverse thus the combination is new to Thompson.

it would appear since 5 month dates were used with this one obverse (335) that it was little damaged earlier and pressed into further use because of its lack of die wear.

Thus my speculation that kelvins coin's reverse had originally a lambda would seem to be correct


Oh it's so great to have New Style talk again. Indeed any Greek talk other than MFBulls!


Cic

[Kevin C5]

Cic,

I was wondering in light of your analogy that my coin might have a different obverse thus the combination is new to Thompson.     Was this common for this to happen during this period?   Is this rare to have the obverse and reverse not matching up correctly? 

Thanks,
Kevin