Antoninus Pius dupondius TR P XXI or XXII ?

[Charles S]

This attractive and well preserved dupondius of Antoninus Pius has been in my collection since many years, but I am still struggling with its attribution.

Dupondius (14.77g, 25mm, 12h), Rome, AD 158-159 or 159-160
Obv.: ANTONINVS AVG PIVS P P TR P XXI(I?), rad. hd., r..
Rev.: TEMPLVM DIV AVG REST / COS IIII in ex. / S C, Octastyle temple with the statues of Augustus and Livia.

I initially identified it as Strack 1157, unlisted in RIC, BMC and Cohen, but listed as sestertius RIC 978 and Cohen 803.

However, in Wildwinds, the obv. legend of is specimen is read as TR P XXII, where the second I fuses perhaps with the neck / shoulder of the portrait.  Thus it becomes RIC 1017, Cohen 807.

I hesitate and can't really decide what it should be.  Any ideas would be appreciated !

[curtislclay]

On aurei and denarii, there is no legend form

ANTONINVS AVG PIVS P P TR P XXI / COS IIII.

Instead the form

ANTONINVS AVG PIVS P P IMP II / TR POT XXI COS IIII

is followed directly by

ANTONINVS AVG PIVS P P TR P XXII / COS IIII.

I suspect that the same is true on bronzes: the omission of IMP II from the obverse legend was simultaneous with the change from TR POT XXI in the reverse legend to TR P XXII on the obverse.

In that case the few bronzes that Strack 1155-9 read as showing

ANTONINVS AVG PIVS P P TR P XXI / COS IIII

will in fact all have been meant to show the same legend with TR P XXII, but with the last stroke of the tribunician number being obscured because the legend ran into the bust.

[Charles S]

Thank you very much Curtis for clarifying this .  It makes all sense now.  Wildwinds was right.   I'm making the necessary changes in my database and forum gallery record for this specimen and change the obv. legend and references accordingly.

[Meepzorp]

Hi Charles,

Thanks for pointing out the legend variations on this issue. I wasn't aware of it.

I also have an example of this issue. Actually, I have an example of all 3 versions (denarius, sestertius, and dupondius). Hopefully, I'll be posting photos soon.

I like this type depicting a temple with statues of Augustus and Livia.

Meepzorp

[Charles S]

Hi Charles,

Thanks for pointing out the legend variations on this issue. I wasn't aware of it.

I also have an example of this issue. Actually, I have an example of all 3 versions (denarius, sestertius, and dupondius). Hopefully, I'll be posting photos soon.

I like this type depicting a temple with statues of Augustus and Livia.

Meepzorp

You are welcome, Meepzorp.  Actually, it was of course Curtis Clay who pointed it out.

I'll be very interested in seeing your examples when you have a chance of posting them.

Charles

[Diederik]

In that case the few bronzes that Strack 1155-9 read as showing

ANTONINVS AVG PIVS P P TR P XXI / COS IIII

So you say they don't exist?


Frans

[curtislclay]

My hypothesis is that the supposed TR P XXI coins that Strack cites are in fact all TR P XXII misread.

Since no such legend form is attested on aurei and denarii, it probably doesn't exist on bronze coins either.

However I am always ready to be persuaded to the contrary if anyone can show me a bronze coin clearly reading TR P XXI on the obverse!

This TEMPLVM DIV AVG type does also occur on rare asses dated TR P XXIII, Strack 1194, illustrated on his pl. XV.

[Kevin C5]

Nice Coin!

[Diederik]

I dare hardly show my only 'clear' XXI temple coin: It is RIC 994 in an ugly state, but very clear XXI


Frans

[curtislclay]

Frans,

Not clear enough, in my opinion!

Can you really be sure that a second I, engraved on top of the emperor's neck, has not been worn away?

[Diederik]

No, of course I can't, but what you ofter see on denarii is, that the end of the bust is tapering and that you can't be sure if it was intended to be a numeral or not. What you suggest is a numeral ON the bust - which I would love to see for the first time.


Frans

[Charles S]

I'm intrigued now and looked up a few examples in the British Museum, but are these convincing enough ... ?

(1) AN00665021_001_l.jpg
Museum number: 1970,0406.1
denarius, 3.81g., 12h
RIC3 271, p.58 (type)

(2) AN00665022_001_l.jpg:
Museum number: 1928,1206.2
denarius , 3,25g., 6h
RIC3 272a, p.58 (type)

(3) AN00667123_001_l.jpg
Museum number: 1950,1006.994
dupondius, 11.95 g., 12h
RIC3 988, p.147 (type)

[Jschulze]

My example is not as pretty as Charles' but I ran into the same problem. I would have started another thread but thanks to Curtis' information here, I think I have what I need... Other than a "yes of course" because who knows if I'm missing something.

Dupondius (25mm, 10h), Rome
Obv.: ANTONINVS AVG PIVS P P TR P X(...?), rad. hd., r..
Rev.: TEMPLVM DIV AVG REST / COS IIII in ex. / S C, Octastyle temple with the statues of Augustus and Livia.

So... As I understand from the previous information... My coin can only be RIC 1017, Cohen 807?

There is a RIC 990DD on Wildwinds (or 988 in the text note attached to the listing) as TR P XXI but I assume that this identification is incorrect and the last numeral is lost on the neck and that Wildwinds example is actually RIC 1017 too. Correct?

Josh

Edit: I've added a closeup of the end of the obverse legend... not that in this state there is much we can gain from it...

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. My photos are now posted in my website.

Here are my 3 examples (denarius, sestertius, and dupondius) of the Antoninus Pius temple type:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/ri_ant_pius_01.htm
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/ri_ant_pius_02.htm

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

My dupondius clearly reads "...TRP XXI" on the obverse. The second "I" that some people are seeing is actually the base of A. Pius' bust.

But my dupondius presents another dilemma. It is not in RIC. According to the dealer, there is only one other known example (Oxford University).

Meepzorp

[Jschulze]

Hi Meepzorp,
Nice coins! I have to say that I think yours (dupondius) is like mine and TRP VII with the final "I" on the neck. However, I would like to hear others opinions on my questions (a few posts back) and yours as well. Thank you!

Josh

[Charles S]

Hi folks,

My dupondius clearly reads "...TRP XXI" on the obverse. The second "I" that some people are seeing is actually the base of A. Pius' bust.

But my dupondius presents another dilemma. It is not in RIC. According to the dealer, there is only one other known example (Oxford University).

Meepzorp

Your dupondius obv. legend is actually very similar to my dupondius at the start of this thread.  I'm no longer convinced that these should all be read as TR P XXII, where the second "I" fuses with the base of the neck, like Curtis Clay suggests.  Especially when comparing with the denarius Bristish Museaum specimen#1928,1206.2 which is a well conserved specimen and very clearly has TR P XXI on the obverse.