Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Vote For Our Member Of The Year Now!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Hoping For A Fantastic 2021 For You And Yours!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Roman Coins (Moderator: Severus_Alexander)  |  Topic: Question on IMP CAESAR and CAESAR DIVI F Octavian types 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Question on IMP CAESAR and CAESAR DIVI F Octavian types  (Read 953 times)
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4740



WWW
« on: May 25, 2015, 08:53:00 am »

I was asked, and answered, the following question off-list, sent to me via PM. I think it's a question more suited for on-list, so I'm posting it here:

Question

I wanted to ask about this coin I picked up.  I see it's Octavian as it's a couple of years before he was given the title Augustus.  The obverse is Anepigraphic, but what can you tell me about the reverse?  What can you tell me about he dating of this issue-how was it established.  Also, how was the mint nailed down.  

Octavian AR Denarius. Italian mint (Rome?), Autumn 30-summer 29 BC. Bare head right / IMP • CAESAR on the architrave of the Roman Senate House (Curia Julia), with porch supported by four short columns, statue of Victory on globe surmounting apex of roof, and statues of standing figures at the extremities of the architrave. CRI 421; RIC I 266; RSC 122.

My answer:

From my website: RIC1: Roman Imperial Coinage Vol.1 31BC-AD69, CHV Sutherland, London 1984
Catalogues the Caesar Divi F and Imp Caesar coins of the last five years of the Republic (32-27BC), inexplicably omitted from Crawford. The general introduction and discussion of dates and mints for these coins is of interest but RIC1 is otherwise quite light on text, referring for its numismatic evidence to Sutherland's "Octavian's Gold and Silver Coinage from c.32 to 27BC" (Quaderni Ticinesi 1976, offprint republished 1997). However assuming you already own Sear HCRI, an essential volume in your library, then RIC1 adds no extra information and is not essential.

When I look in Sutherland's "Octavian's Gold and Silver Coinage from c.32 to 27BC" (Quaderni Ticinesi 1976), Sutherland comments that hoards are no help (because Antony and Octavian coinage would have been hoarded separately and not together, so you cannot tell relative chronology from the presence or absence of legionary denarii). But even Crawford acnowledges that the series, in general, must pre-date the issue of Scarpus in 31-29 BC since Scarpus copies the Victory on a globe from this series. So, simply put, if Scarpus copied one of these coins, then some of them must pre-date Scarpus, and this are before Actium. Thus at least some of the CAESAR DIVI F or IMP CAESAR are pre Actium and all are Roman Republican, as they clearly predate Octavians relinquishment of his Imperatorial powers and assumption of the title Augustus in 27 BC. Sutherland's article is lengthy and goes into many other aspects.

The Senate house is of course the same building you can see in Rome today
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curia_Julia

Mint location: if these coins were issued shortly after or shortly before Actium, then an Italian mint would make sense. The sale description mentions Rome. Brundisium is often also mentioned as a possibility, and if the issue was being paid to the troops involved, probably made more sense. The entire issue is struck to a common technical standard so one mint is indicated.

Andrew
Logged

Lucas H
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 639



WWW
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2015, 02:01:32 pm »

Here is the coin and its listing in my gallery.  Thanks for the information. 

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-121071


* Octavian RIC I 266.jpg (36.39 KB, 544x262 - viewed 123 times.)
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4740



WWW
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2015, 03:12:17 pm »

It's a very nice coin with a clear picture of Julius Caesar's senate house, which remains intact today. I didn't realise that it wasn't in my collection anymore!
Logged

Maximinvs
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 118



« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 01:48:29 am »

If you are referring to the Curia Julia in the forum then I think that was rebuilt by Diocletian. The building on the reverse is sadly no longer survives.

Cheers,
Ian
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4740



WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 02:49:53 am »

If you are referring to the Curia Julia in the forum then I think that was rebuilt by Diocletian. The building on the reverse is sadly no longer survives.

Cheers,
Ian

The wiki page on the Curia Julia implies this is the original:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curia_Julia

QUOTE
Curia Iulia) is the third named Curia, or Senate House, in the ancient city of Rome. It was built in 44 BC when Julius Caesar replaced Faustus Cornelius Sulla’s reconstructed Curia Cornelia, which itself had replaced the Curia Hostilia ... The project was eventually finished by Caesar’s successor Augustus in 29 BC. The Curia Julia is one of only a handful of Roman structures to survive to the modern day mostly intact ...
UNQUOTE

I'm not saying you are not right - you probably are - but the essence of the Wikipedia page is that the building on the coin is essentially the same building as is in the Forum today, just with the usual reworkings that take place over the centuries, conversion into and out from a church, roof repairs, etc. etc. If even some of the walls date from 44 BC then I'd say it's the same building.
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5976


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2015, 04:56:42 am »

Diocletian rebuilt it after a fire. I believe the foundation and mosaic floor is original but the roof and most walls were rebuilt in the 1930's.

Wikipedia:
The Curia Julia is the third named curia within the comitium. Each structure was rebuilt a number of times, but originated from a single Etruscan temple built to honor the truce of the Sabine conflict. When this original temple was destroyed Tullus Hostilius rebuilt it and gave it his name. This lasted for a few hundred years until fire again destroyed the curia and the new structure was dedicated to its financial benefactor, Cornelius Sulla. In fact, the structure in the forum today is the second incarnation of Caesar's curia. From 81 to 96 the Curia Julia was restored under Domitian. In 283, this Curia was heavily damaged by a fire, at the time of emperor Carinus. From 284 to 305, the Curia was then rebuilt by Diocletian. It is the remnants of Diocletian's building that stands today. In 412, the Curia was restored again, this time by Urban Prefect Annius Eucharius Epiphanius.
Logged

My Gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Maximinvs
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 118



« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2015, 05:34:17 am »

From Amanda Claridge's excellent Oxford Archeological Guide on Rome, the walls and marble floor of the existing structure are Diocletianic, but the foundations were reused. But it seems to have resembled its predecessor. The original bronze doors now adorn St John Lateran, they are marvellous things.

Great coin by the way.

Cheers,
Ian


* 016-st-john-lateran-curia-julia-doors.jpg (79.95 KB, 450x600 - viewed 61 times.)
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4740



WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2015, 05:58:10 am »

It's no different from those vintage cars that are rebuilt from a rusty chassis found in a barn. The archaeologists among us may argue that the floors, foundations and some of the wall stones date from 44 to 29 BC. The historians and mere lovers of history can explain how the Curia Julia in the Forum was built by Julius Caesar, believe themselves right, and convince us. Nobody questions that, at the same time, a rebuilt 1931 Bentley is both a beautiful and valuable original, and yet also a restoration containing a substantial proportion of new parts. So it is with the Curia Julia. Of course, if one is an historian of Byzantium, a similar story can be told of Diocletian building it from the ruins of Julius Caesar's building. Is that columned old building on Syracuse's Ortyga a Greek temple or a Christian church? How about the mosque at Corduba?

These are all palimpsest building. We can read the old or read the new dependent on choice.
Logged

David Atherton
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4515


The meaning of life can be found in a coin.


WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2015, 06:31:00 am »

Even before Diocletian restored the Curia Iulia in 283 AD, Domitian may have rebuilt it (as Jay has already pointed out) along with his work on the Forum Transitorium (Hieron. a. Abr. 2106). Richardson in A New Topographical Dictionary of Ancient Rome proposes that Domitian actually moved the structure and uses as evidence the Augustan coins which depict the Curia. According to Richardson, the coins show a colonnade around the Curia and states there is no room for such a structure on its current site. According to this theory, Domitian moved the whole building eastwards to narrow the entrance to the Argiletum. Darwell-smith in Emperors and Architecture believes this is a bit too much because no ancient sources mention such a massive undertaking.
Logged

orfew
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 999


WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2015, 09:30:01 am »

Wow, so many interesting stories are woven around these coins.
Logged

Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Roman Coins (Moderator: Severus_Alexander)  |  Topic: Question on IMP CAESAR and CAESAR DIVI F Octavian types « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 1.348 seconds with 41 queries.
All coins are guaranteed for eternity
zoom.asp