Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?  (Read 2000 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 77HK77

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?
« on: May 18, 2015, 03:25:13 pm »
Pick this up last week. What caught my eye was an obverse image of Janus. The elongated beard seemed more akin to Q.Titius than Pansa. The reverse is clearly Pansa.

I found two coins online listed as hybrids. (I assume the owners matched the obverse with an existing Titius coin.)

I have not been able to find a die match to this obverse or reverse to show it as a hybrid.

I’m hoping someone might have a die match in their collection to the either the obverse or reverse which would show it as a true hybrid.
Or perhaps someone has a similar Pansa and we should just consider it artistic license with the beard.

Thanks for looking
HK

PS Coin is  EX Christies 10/17/84 part of lot 21, Ex RBW neither noted the unusual beard for a Pansa AS

Offline 77HK77

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2015, 09:38:57 am »
I'm open to any comments on whether this could be a hybrid or if I'm chasing a phantom idea!

Offline PeterD

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1483
  • omnium curiositatum explorator
    • Historia
Re: Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2015, 01:06:07 pm »
Well, both moneyers issued asses at the same time, in 90 BC. The obverses only show Janus, so the dies were surely completely interchangeable. Both moneyers had several different reverses and so must have required a pool of obverses.

Sear RCVM illustrates both types (743 and 744). The Pansa Janus has pointy beards but they are more 'horizontal' than for Titius.

Hope that helps.
Peter, London

Historia: A collection of coins with their historical context https://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia

Offline Norbert

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 92
  • 42
Re: Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2015, 03:45:34 pm »
I have just stumbled about this one on vcoins.
Also advertised as "RARE MULED HYBRID OF Q. TITIUS AND C. VIBIUS C.F. PANSA"




Offline 77HK77

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2015, 05:06:39 pm »
The other listed hybrid was from NAC 63

C. Vibius C.f. Pansa
Hybrid . As 90, Æ 11.14 g. Laureate head of Janus. Rev. ROMA Three prows r. and in exergue, C·PANSA. Babelon Titia 4 (obv.) and Vibia 11 (rev.). Sydenham 690 var. Crawford 341/4 (obv.) and 342/7 (rev).


Offline 77HK77

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2015, 05:16:24 pm »
This area of collecting is new  to me and I have not seen many coins of either Pansa or Titius- just whats online

Here is an example of each. The Janus of Pansa has a more rounded beard. At least from the examples I could find. While Titius tends to be pointed.

To PeterD 's point the Titius beard tend to point a little more downward than my coin

i did see a Titius reverse with rounded beard not listed as a hybrid- interesting


Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2015, 05:26:50 pm »
The pointed beard Pansa types are definitely hybrids - the pointy beards are unmistakable.

The question is whether they represent the accidental, inadvertent, use of a Titia die. Or if it was a deliberate combination used for some coins.

The fact that the Titia style obverse is, from these pictures, paired with three different reverse dies, seems like evidence of it being deliberate. It's just too frequent an occurrence to be a once off accident. One could imagine that Titia struck first, and mint management instructed that good condition Titia dies continue to be used until worn out, and only then replaced with non pointy beards. If this was the case, then this should probably be categorized as a new type rather than as a hybrid accident.

Offline 77HK77

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2015, 10:14:31 am »
Then we should consider these three examples as showing Titia dies stuck first, transitional pieces in the form of three hybrids with six different dies (3 Obv, 3 Rev), then Pansa strikes.

While hunting for images on line I came across a Pansa Obv paired with  Titia Rev If we accept the first statement then this one example should be considered the accidental hybrid. If in the future we come across additional examples of multiple Pansa Obv dies paired with Titia Rev we might need to reconsider the reasons the hybrids exist.

Is there another period where similar transitional hybrid pairings appear?

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2015, 10:44:35 am »
Then we should consider these three examples as showing Titia dies stuck first, transitional pieces in the form of three hybrids with six different dies (3 Obv, 3 Rev), then Pansa strikes.

While hunting for images on line I came across a Pansa Obv paired with  Titia Rev If we accept the first statement then this one example should be considered the accidental hybrid. If in the future we come across additional examples of multiple Pansa Obv dies paired with Titia Rev we might need to reconsider the reasons the hybrids exist.

Is there another period where similar transitional hybrid pairings appear?


I wasn't aware of that combination (Titia without the pointy beard). Could you let me know where you found the coin, thanks

The concept is known in silver. Quite a few instances are known of mixed types between moneyers who struck the same year. But between Titia and Pansa there is also the well known fact that the bronzes of each take their types from the silver of the other monster.

Andrew

Offline 77HK77

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2015, 10:49:12 am »
the last example was from NAC 63 lot 54

Offline 77HK77

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2015, 02:09:34 pm »
I found another Rounded beard (Pansa) with a Titius reverse. CNG sale 191

I put all five together to review. Anyone find other examples?

Offline Carausius

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1432
    • My Forum Gallery:
Re: Pansa – Titius Hybrid or just a long beard?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2017, 01:03:33 am »
I'm replying to this old, interesting thread, because I've just acquired the following AE As by Q. TItius with symbol (palm-branch), with a rounded-beard Janus obverse. This is Crawford 341/4d, and Crawford's related table identifies the palm-branch symbol variety with reference to an example at the Kestner Museum HannoverHannover 2942 (Berger) is from the same dies, with rounded-beard.  ACSEARCH yielded only two other examples of the palm-branch symbol, both with typical (for Titius) pointy-bearded Janus heads. 

Round-bearded Janus, of course, is associated with Pansa's coins.  Titius' Asses overwhelmingly bear a pointy-bearded Janus.  I wonder if these apparent obverse die mix-ups are the result of a common die repository (between shifts) doling-out the wrong pairings at the beginning of the next shift. 
 


 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity