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Author Topic: ROMAN REPUBLIC, Anonymous - Quadrigatus/Didrachm  (Read 3722 times)

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Offline Nemonater

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ROMAN REPUBLIC, Anonymous - Quadrigatus/Didrachm
« on: March 10, 2015, 06:43:13 pm »

Offline carthago

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Re: ROMAN REPUBLIC, Anonymous - Quadrigatus/Didrachm
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2015, 09:18:31 pm »
Technically, yours is a different Crawford number than mine but I don't know about the other one.  Off hand I don't know what differentiates the different variations.  I would think it would be the ROMA but you see all sorts for the same reference when you look it up.  I don't have Crawford to review right now. 

So I'm saying I'm not even sure my Crawford is correct as I just copied it from the tag. 

I just gave you your first 5 stars btw.  Beautiful coin!

Offline Nemonater

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Re: ROMAN REPUBLIC, Anonymous - Quadrigatus/Didrachm
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2015, 10:32:47 pm »
Quote from: carthago on March 10, 2015, 09:18:31 pm
Technically, yours is a different Crawford number than mine but I don't know about the other one.  Off hand I don't know what differentiates the different variations.  I would think it would be the ROMA but you see all sorts for the same reference when you look it up.  I don't have Crawford to review right now. 

So I'm saying I'm not even sure my Crawford is correct as I just copied it from the tag. 

I just gave you your first 5 stars btw.  Beautiful coin!

Thanks Carthago.  Your example is truly outstanding and one of the reasons I was drawn to this type.  I was hoping for the privilege of being your next victim.

I also just did a cut and paste with the description of my coin and I was going to put it in the BOT gallery with no attribution at all. After poring over auction listings and online references, I couldn't make heads or tails of the attributions with the exception of the "dot" series.

In a different thread https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=100846.0 I asked (begged) for a confirmation of the auction house listing and I took the silence to mean the attribution was correct and perhaps the the question was foolish.

I would love to hear anything you come up with.


Offline carthago

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Re: ROMAN REPUBLIC, Anonymous - Quadrigatus/Didrachm
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2015, 12:24:16 am »
It's a great type and one with lots of varieties.  I don't have access to my library at the moment but I'd think that Crawford would explain the differences in his classifications.  It's interesting some of the types he gives qualifiers to such as "a", "b" and types that receive entirely new numbers.  I'm sure Andrew M will jump in at some point and give us the lowdown. 

I seem to remember that it may have to do with the the "berries" in the wreath.  There are several different variations on the ROMA tablet as well.  There are also early and late versions, with some that are very crude.  Yours and I'd like to think mine are of the elegant variety.   I didn't see your post below; I've been having challenges with the recently unread.

As for being my victim, I'm not so sure about that Nemo.  I'm frankly putting my bet on the Crawford technicality in hopes that I don't have to face you in the arena

Offline Nemonater

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Re: ROMAN REPUBLIC, Anonymous - Quadrigatus/Didrachm
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 08:27:54 pm »
I was able to get ahold of some of the text (no illustrations) from RRC volume 1. In the appendix, he admits that the arrangement of the quadriga coinage is particularly difficult, with the various styles shading almost imperceptibly into each other.

The sequence of quadrigati begins with no. 28, with the obverse in high relief, circular ringlets of hair on top and long, neat, curving sideburns. The reverse has both Jupiter and Victory both standing in the chariot, incuse legend, but also includes a mixture of incuse letter-forms and letter-forms in relief.

So, my coin is Cr. 28? Not so fast!

The most distinctive feature of the second sequence (no. 29) is a legend placed on a tablet shaped like an inverted trapeze. So then Cr. 29? It would seem so, except the inverted trapezoid is also described in the third sequence!

The distinctive feature of the third sequence (no. 30) is the stance of Victory not in the chariot, but on the tailboard, so that the whole of her figure is visible. This group has an obverse with either harsh or rather stupid features and legend in rectangular tablet or an inverted trapezoid.

Carthago's example is anything but harsh or stupid!

I'm not obsessed with attribution, I just prefer to have it accurate.  :P

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: ROMAN REPUBLIC, Anonymous - Quadrigatus/Didrachm
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2015, 04:30:27 am »
I was able to get ahold of some of the text (no illustrations) from RRC volume 1. In the appendix, he admits that the arrangement of the quadriga coinage is particularly difficult, with the various styles shading almost imperceptibly into each other.

The sequence of quadrigati begins with no. 28, with the obverse in high relief, circular ringlets of hair on top and long, neat, curving sideburns. The reverse has both Jupiter and Victory both standing in the chariot, incuse legend, but also includes a mixture of incuse letter-forms and letter-forms in relief.

So, my coin is Cr. 28? Not so fast!

The most distinctive feature of the second sequence (no. 29) is a legend placed on a tablet shaped like an inverted trapeze. So then Cr. 29? It would seem so, except the inverted trapezoid is also described in the third sequence!

The distinctive feature of the third sequence (no. 30) is the stance of Victory not in the chariot, but on the tailboard, so that the whole of her figure is visible. This group has an obverse with either harsh or rather stupid features and legend in rectangular tablet or an inverted trapezoid.

Carthage's example is anything but harsh or stupid!

I'm not obsessed with attribution, I just prefer to have it accurate.  :P

This is a toughie.

Crawford's main arrangement has some merits but an equal number of problems. There are basically five relatively common types
- early RRC 28 with incuse legend on a raised rectangle. Pl.II all, Pl.III all. There is of course a lot of development from the earliest finest style pieces which the Sheikh paid CHF 190,000 for an example once, and presumably later coins, still of good style but not so beautiful. But there's no clear dividing line.
- late RRC 28 with legend relief in a frame and a dumpy flan. Pl.IV, 1-5,8. I don't think these are necessarily from the same mint given the massive difference with the early types but at least they are easy to distinguish. These go on to become debased
- RRC 29 with the legend in relief on a raised trapezoid. Pl.V, 3-4
- RRC 30 with Victory outside the chariot and a narrow head. Pl.VI, all
- RRC 31 with V truncation with dot under. Legend may be incuse, mixed or relief. Pl. IV,10.

95% of quadrigati fall clearly into one of these five large groups. Despite the RRC 31 which I cite being illustrated by only one plate example it is actually abundant. Likewise the later RRC 28.

None of these five major groups should in my view be eligible for head to heads BOT between the groups. They are distinct and common enough that there should be head to heads only within the group.

Of the remaining 5% including the supposed RRC 32, 33 and 34 which by taxonomy are all just minor variants of the early RRC 28, I just cite the closest RRC plate match by style, and then assign to one of my five main boxes above (regardless what number Crawford placed it in). So, in my usage, Pl.V,1-2 don't have the relief legend on a raised trapezoid characteristic of RRC 29 (Pl.V 3-4) and I tend to lump them with the early RRC 28 group. And despite Victory not being outside the chariot, Pl.V 7-10 exactly match the style of all the Pl.VI RRC 30 coins so I regard them as RRC 30

So that's my system. Five main types, and any variants that don't automatically fall into those types, I cite the closest RRC plate match and then assign to one of my main groups by a pragmatic allocation that in some cases overrides Crawford's thinking. It's the best that I can do.

As for Neomantor's desire for accuracy, that would be an ideal if the taxonomy was clear in the first place. It isn't, it's a bit muddled. So we have to be pragmatic and look at the apparent major groups. You do need the Crawford plates for this. The text alone is no use. Neither are any online resources useful. Without the plates all you can say is "this is a quadrigatus".

In my view BOT competition should not pitch any of these main types against each other. It would be akin to allowing an archaic owl to compete against a classical owl. The more classic look would always win, and in this case we would always end up with just a single early RRC 28 in classic style in the BOT. At least we need the main variants represented by their own coin in the BOT. In my own collection I have very beautiful examples of four of these types (and a worn example of the fifth). I never see them as competing. They are different coin types each beautiful in their own way.

Offline Nemonater

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Re: ROMAN REPUBLIC, Anonymous - Quadrigatus/Didrachm
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2015, 07:45:19 pm »
Very clear and reasonable summation Andrew. Thank you.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: ROMAN REPUBLIC, Anonymous - Quadrigatus/Didrachm
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2015, 02:15:09 pm »
Very clear and reasonable summation Andrew. Thank you.

You are welcome. Clearly this is a difficult coinage where the process of assigning the coin to one or other of the main distinct groups which I describe is much more important than giving a Crawford number to those groups, especially as the Crawford arrangement, whilst having some wisdom behind it, is evidently not correct as is clear from some of the Plate V examples I cite. Get a coin into one if the groups that represent 95% of the volume of the coinage, or establish that a coin is somehow different, and one's job is done. The reality is that wise cataloguers already know that there are limited number of groups, starting with early and late 28, and then the most clear cut examples of 29, 30 and 31, and from then one has increasingly odd coins that fit less and less neatly into any categorisation The test is what they do when a coin doesn't neatly fit. The best thing is to write "cf.RRC 28, nearest comparable example is Pl.X coin yz". The use of cf. and citation of a plate coin is the necessary due diligence concluded.

Some day someone will do a die study.

 

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