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Author Topic: Italy MOU with United States  (Read 3582 times)

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Offline Carausius

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Italy MOU with United States
« on: February 23, 2015, 04:10:12 pm »
I just received word from an email group that the United States memorandum of understanding (MOU) with Italy is being considered for "extension" and a hearing scheduled for April 2015.  It is unclear whether "extend" refers merely to an extension of time or includes an extension of scope.  I recommend that all U.S. collectors of Roman Republican and Roman Imperial coins remain vigilant, and, if an expanded MOU scope is proposed, be prepared to provide CPAC with thoughtful arguments against expanding the MOU to include any additional series of ancient Roman coins.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2015, 07:16:00 pm »
Hi Cara,

Thanks for the info. Please keep us informed.

As you probably know, the Italy MOU is already significantly affecting me because Magna Graecia coins are the #1 things I collect. And I do business with many dealers in Italy/San Marino.

I guess that the odds of the authorities completely abolishing the MOU (instead of extending it in time and/or scope) are astronomical. That is probably about as likely as someone giving me $1 billion tomorrow. :)

How can other Forum members be notified by email?

Meepzorp

Offline Carausius

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2015, 01:49:42 pm »
Hi Meep. I hope your recovery is going well. I don't want to advertise email lists on the Forum.  Anyone wishing to follow the progress of the MOU can check the website of the Cultural Property Advisory Commitee (CPAC), or the websites of various persons and entities that follow these matters, such as the Ancient Coin Collector's Guild.  CPAC's website isn't very mobile-user friendly, but I eventually found the MOU through their "news" tab.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2015, 12:53:38 am »
I am preparing some comments regarding the proposed MOU that I plan to submit to CPAC before the March 20 deadline.  I have a few questions that I was hoping one or more of our Forum members from Italy could answer: I know that export from Italy of ancient Roman coins is prohibited without an export permit.  However, is it true that ancient Roman coins can be bought/sold/owned within Italy without restriction?  Are there any significant restrictions to sale and ownership of ancient Roman coins within Italy?  Thanks.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2015, 02:57:57 am »
Quote from: Carausius on March 07, 2015, 12:53:38 am
I am preparing some comments regarding the proposed MOU that I plan to submit to CPAC before the March 20 deadline.  I have a few questions that I was hoping one or more of our Forum members from Italy could answer: I know that export from Italy of ancient Roman coins is prohibited without an export permit.  However, is it true that ancient Roman coins can be bought/sold/owned within Italy without restriction?  Are there any significant restrictions to sale and ownership of ancient Roman coins within Italy?  Thanks.

My understanding is that it is true in a Catch-22 sort of way. What follows is a garbled summary of what I think I've read or heard in various discussions. Coin selling is allowed and there are a limited number of local dealers. Ownership is likewise allowed and coins can be sold and bequeathed. But if one ends up buying something of problematic provenance which is traced to you, then your entire collection can be subject to impoundment subject to you demonstrating good provenance (e.g. acquisition from a licensed dealer).  I would assume from this rule set that most people prefer anonymity.

I'm sure you're already aware of this, but many aren't: Italian Export Controls (what's needed to get a coin onto a plane) and American Import Controls (what's needed to disembark that coin at it's final destination) are unrelated items. The MOUs have been phrased in such a way that an export permit from Italy stands as good evidence. But the reverse isn't true - lack of an export permit has no bearing one way or another on whether a coin may enter the USA, and the US isn't in the business of enforcing Italian regulations of dubious legality (see next para). Lacking an export permit, one looks to the coin types, and then to evidence that the coins were outside Italy before the MOUs.

A fact that most people are unware of is that the Italian export permit system is in contravention of European Union law, which contains a clause that specifically bans requiring export permits on items not individually declared to be of national importance, and includes "Collectible coins" as an example of where export permits are not generally allowed to be demanded. However this should be irrelevant to US actions.

Good luck on entering this quagmire. The ANS magazines have had several good update articles on this in recent years.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2015, 09:54:39 am »
Thanks Andrew. In my comments I have a general statement that "in Italy, unprovenanced ancient coins can be legally bought, sold and owned." Before including such a statement, I wanted confirmation that it will stand up to scrutiny.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2015, 10:29:50 am »
Hi Cara,

This is what I've been told by a few US ancient coin dealers (so I assume it is true):

Ancient and Medieval coins can be bought and owned by Italian citizens living in Italy. However, there is a catch. By law, that person may be forced to prove that the coin was NOT found buried in the ground. The burden of proof is on the owner, and not on the Italian government. The Italian government doesn't have to prove that the coin was found buried in the ground. The owner must prove that it wasn't. Because of this situation, I've been told that collectors of ancient/Medieval coins in Italy must keep pedigree records of every coin in their collection.

As you are probably aware, there is a related law in Italy. Any coin that is more than X number of years old (I think the "magic number" is 50) that is found buried in the ground in Italy is property of the Italian government. It doesn't belong to the person who found it. It belongs to the Italian government. The finder is supposed to turn it over to the Italian government. It doesn't matter if the coin was found on private property. It doesn't belong to the finder or the property owner. If the finder attempts to sell/export it, by law, he is selling/exporting "stolen property". At that point, the coin is considered to be "stolen" from the Italian government. And he can be arrested and/or imprisoned.

I've never actually researched this myself. This is just what I've been told by US ancient coin dealers.

Meepzorp

Offline Carausius

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2015, 11:02:42 am »
Thanks, Meep.  Given your's and Andrew's replies, I think my sentence may be a bit of a stretch.  I will either redraft it or just delete it from my comments.

Offline Matthew C5

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2015, 12:18:46 pm »
I'm quite curious to know where the line is drawn on cultural heritage in Italy.  If a French coin was found in Italy, is this now Italy or France's heritage?

If it is Italy's claim, then all Roman coins found outside Italy should be fair game for selling/trade.  If it is not Italy's, then all mints of non-Italian lands should be fair game.

Does anyone agree that they have to draw a line as to what the laws define as 'heritage' ?

I personally think that the 1st of the two has more logic for the restrictors, although I am not fond of the restrictions in the first place.

Matt

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2015, 01:19:27 pm »
Italy doesn't have to do anything. It's a sovereign country and makes its own rules just like the US.

It's the location of the find that matters in all these situations, regardless where a coin was minted. Lacking a find location, the presence of an undocumented coin in the country is considered as indicating a coin was probably found there. Lacking both a find location and any physical evidence where a coin has been, the mint location is considered a proxy. The US MOU reflects that sort of rough hierarchy: show a coin has been outside Italy, and declare its not the result of an Italian excavation then all is ok. Lacking that, there's a rule based approach based on the type of coin.

Offline Matthew C5

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2015, 02:08:42 pm »
I completely back you Andrew on your point  that Italy can make their own laws, but like all laws made, they have to be based on logical thinking from the citizens.  They cannot own a Roman/Greek/etc. coin outside their boarders.  If an Italian citizen purchases a coin outside of Italy, then they should be able to do what they will with it then based on the fact that it originated outside of the country.

Either they own what is is the ground, or they own a fully agreed interpretaion of 'culteral heritage'.  This I believe has to be defined.

As for the law, unless I'm wrong on this,  is it not 'innocent until proven guilty' across the free world?

This is like saying:  prove that the $100 bill you own came from a bank and was not stolen, or we will take it from you and everything else you have.

I see how some might choose to respect laws on the simple basis of compliance, and never wish to challenge them, but the 'interpretation of all laws around the world are always being adjusted/ammended. 

With the upcoming MOU, I think that the appropriate people should lay the groundwork to preserve the collecting of ancient coins for years to come by such arguments.

Matt






Offline Carausius

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2015, 02:47:07 pm »
With the upcoming MOU, I think that the appropriate people should lay the groundwork to preserve the collecting of ancient coins for years to come by such arguments.

The appropriate people will likely do no such thing unless collectors, dealers and all others who agree with you make their voices heard by posting thoughtful, convincing comments on the CPAC website.  If they think few on our side care about the outcome, they will do what the government of Italy and the vocal archaeology lobby ask.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2015, 02:50:13 pm »
Its a legitimate foreign policy objective for Italy to seek the repatriation of anything which they imagine was probably found in Italy. It's what Italian voters want, so their government seeks to make it happen. As with any element of foreign policy, other nations can respond however they wish. The US has considered that it makes good US foreign policy to agree with Italy's demands. Why? Because US voters wish this to happen. In contrast other EU countries disagree with these sort of blanket restrictions to such an extent that there's EU law that bans them in between EU countries. Italy chooses to ignore this EU law. Why? Because Italian voters wish this to happen, and as free movement of collectible coins is not an issue that arouses much interest elsewhere in Europe, they get away with it. But there'll never be an equivalent MOU between Italy and other EU countries because that would require those other countries to positively change EU laws in Italy's favour and that isn't going to happen, because, unlike in the US, there's isn't a significant Italian lobby in other countries in Europe: there's no votes to be had. Politics drives every move in this saga. The logic of politics is to respond to the wishes of local voters, and nothing else. If you are a US citizen you get to "vote" on this issue by posting thoughtful, convincing comments on the CPAC. You can also lobby your local elected representative. If you are not a US citizen, I'm not sure what we can do other than offer sympathy. Which isn't as valuable as a vote.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2015, 04:14:12 pm »
If you are a US citizen you get to "vote" on this issue by posting thoughtful, convincing comments on the CPAC. You can also lobby your local elected representative. If you are not a US citizen, I'm not sure what we can do other than offer sympathy. Which isn't as valuable as a vote.

 +++   Apathy implies our consent to whatever MOU restrictions CPAC and the State Department choose to impose.  US collectors and dealers need to make their voices heard. 

I also think it could be tremendously beneficial if collectors and dealers from Italy were to post comments on the CPAC website against the restriction of ancient coins by the MOU.  The proposal is for an MOU with the Republic of Italy, so the opinions of citizens of Italy are certainly relevant!

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2015, 05:15:38 pm »
I'm quite curious to know where the line is drawn on cultural heritage in Italy.  If a French coin was found in Italy, is this now Italy or France's heritage?

Matt

Hi Matt,

Italy's laws only apply to Italian coins found in Italy. If someone finds a French coin in Italy, it is France's heritage, not Italy's. The Italian government doesn't care what you do with it. You can put it on a rocket to Mars for all they care. Conversely, if someone finds an Italian coin outside of Italy, the find country doesn't care what you do with it. There isn't much Italy can do about it. And the MOU reflects that, because coins that were outside of Italy before January 2011 are "grandfathered in". The MOU doesn't apply to those coins.

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2015, 05:20:54 pm »
As for the law, unless I'm wrong on this,  is it not 'innocent until proven guilty' across the free world?

Matt

Hi Matt,

Unfortunately, these types of laws don't work that way. And, from what I understand, US customs laws are the same way. You are "guilty until proven innocent". The burden of proof is on you.

And it is actually even worse than that. As alluded to above, in Italy, the authorities will seize your entire collection because of one suspect coin. And the owner must prove the "innocence" of every one of his coins.

Meepzorp

Offline benito

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2015, 06:48:12 am »
Tombaroli anonymous could write against the MOU.

Offline Matthew C5

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2015, 01:07:05 pm »
Continuing on this, I would like to add in that I fully respect the world of archaeology, as I have personally done work in the collections of the Canadian Museum of Civilization on native items.  In saying this, I think that some items should never fall into the hands of private collectors, as it
can lead to lost history.

Coins were mass produced, and should, in my personal opinion, be one of the exceptions.  

Hypothetically what would happen if:

A French citizen finds a French-minted Roman coin in the ground on French soil.  Both the French archaeologists and Italian ones decide that this particular coin is a priceless piece of history for their countries.  Who gets it?  I'm thinking that this sort of scenario has not came-up only because the United States is not a source country.

Am I alone in thinking that there is a lot of 'grey ares' in terms of ownership of ancient coins.  I would like to point out something concerning one's own cultural history- why has no one ever complained about the towering obelisk that every tourist of Rome comes to see at the Vatican(although independant).  Is it not right in your backyard, and does it not belong to Egypt?  Seems to be a bit contradicting to expect the USA to follow rules, and then 'turn a blind eye' to other such cultural heritages.

PS. there are 8 Egyptian obelisks in the city of Rome including the one in the Vatican.

Offline antesignanvm

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2015, 01:39:28 pm »
Quote from: Meepzorp on March 07, 2015, 05:15:38 pm

Hi Matt,

Italy's laws only apply to Italian coins found in Italy. If someone finds a French coin in Italy, it is France's heritage, not Italy's. The Italian government doesn't care what you do with it. You can put it on a rocket to Mars for all they care. Conversely, if someone finds an Italian coin outside of Italy, the find country doesn't care what you do with it. There isn't much Italy can do about it. And the MOU reflects that, because coins that were outside of Italy before January 2011 are "grandfathered in". The MOU doesn't apply to those coins.

Meepzorp

what you report is not correct, is property of italian government everything you find in the ground that has at least 50 years, and this is valid for raw materials also.
If you have an ancient coin at home you have to prove that has been legally purchased and don't come from illegal excavations.
Said that, do you have any idea of how many coins come from illegal excavations? Many, too much. In the last auction (ended in Feb.) of an auction house based in london there was a group of sextertii that were clearly part of a hoard but no informations were given, and the hoard has been dispersed probably without any possibility to study it.
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Offline Rupert

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2015, 02:35:10 pm »
A state makes laws here which are impossible to comply with, making everybody a criminal. And in a country like Italy, everybody accepts the challenge.

Coin collecting is not forbidden but you must be able to prove that the coin was not found in the ground and not owned illegally. So you bought your coin from an auction firm? Then they had it illegally, so your possession is illegal. You bought it from the British Museum as a duplicate? Then the British Museum had it illegally. Every ancient coin was lost or buried at some time and found in or on the ground some later time. This is completely arbitrary, and the only way to deal with this is not taking the government seriously. Which is what everbody in Italy is doing. Italian style laws, combined with German thoroughness, now that would be truly disastrous.

Rupert
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Offline Matthew C5

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2015, 08:10:43 am »
I would like to stress the importance of my last statement concerning the apparent hypocrisy of the coins laws, in light of egyptian obelisks all over Rome.  Forgive me if I seem a bit pushy, I don't mean any offence. 

I cannot specifically help with the cause of preseving this hobby in the upcoming MOU renewal, as I am not a U.S. citizen.  I do have one last point(let's call in a philisophical argument)I'd like to throw out there for some to ponder.  Had the United States of America once been part of a Roman colony 2000 years ago, in lets say the Boston area, would they be so willing to have these sort of international agreements on coins?  Are these agreements not based on Magna Grecia coins by which Greece could also lay cultural claim? 

As for the last stament before this:  This law is equivalent to saying, as an example: say that I sell a used guitar to someone on one of those online used item sites.  When they pay for my perfectly legal guitar, I then receive a visit shortly after by people who tell me that they will be removing all of my guitars due to the fact that the money I was paid in was stolen from a bank, and buying used items encourages bank robberies.  That to me is ridiculous, and the real issue lies in the security of known ruins.

Here's an idea:  sell extremely common and authentic late Roman coins to tourists, etc.. and fund security guards like they do at construction sites overnight.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2015, 09:34:41 am »
I hope Joe doesn't mind this bit of activism on the Forum.  Tomorrow is the deadline for submitting comments on Italy's request for renewal (and possible expansion) of the MOU with the United States.  Please take a few minutes to stand-up for your hobby and post a comment against the inclusion of ancient coins in any renewal of the MOU.  You can find links to the CPAC comment portal and instructions on Peter Tompa's Cultural Property Observer blog.  These decisions are made by appointed (not elected) bureaucrats whose only exposure to the people's will is through public comment.  Please let your views be known.  Stepping-off soap box now!

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2015, 10:26:30 am »
Quote from: Carausius on March 19, 2015, 09:34:41 am
I hope Joe doesn't mind this bit of activism on the Forum.  Tomorrow is the deadline for submitting comments on Italy's request for renewal (and possible expansion) of the MOU with the United States.  Please take a few minutes to stand-up for your hobby and post a comment against the inclusion of ancient coins in any renewal of the MOU.  You can find links to the CPAC comment portal and instructions on Peter Tompa's Cultural Property Observer blog.  These decisions are made by appointed (not elected) bureaucrats whose only exposure to the people's will is through public comment.  Please let your views be known.  Stepping-off soap box now!

An American who is knowledgeable on this issue informed me that non-Americans are very welcome to comment on the CPAC submission especially those who think they may have some standing that the Americans might recognise eg well known international collectors, those who have published articles or books on numismatics, those who have studied ancient history or archaeology or who work in a related field, or, evidently, Italians (even those having only minor collecting interest). So Europeans who think they should have a voice are invited to comment also. Evidently if not an American, it wont help much to send the form-letter: An individual response that reflects your own views and experiences will have much more weight.

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2015, 10:46:03 am »
Dear Board,

For those who may be interested:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/up27bt2z5x9rcqu/ItalyMoU-WCN.pdf?dl=0



Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2015, 10:50:59 am »
Today is the deadline for comments. I submitted the following objection last night:

I would like to register my opposition to the renewal of the Italian MOU regarding ancient coins, and to any extension of that MOU to apply to additional classes of Roman coins.

I believe that the Italians are wrong to wish to prohibit the importation of Roman coins into the United States. That measure will not reduce illegal digging at Italian sites, since Roman coins will continue to find a ready market in European countries and the rest of the world. Since Roman coins are as a rule extremely common, and circulated throughout the Mediterranean world, it would be perverse to suppose that they somehow “belong” to the Italian state. Private collectors in Italy and around the world, and museums and universities in other countries, should be allowed to own them too, as has been the case since collecting first began in the Renaissance.

Roman coins in and of themselves, independently of where they were found, are an important source of Roman history. Since the ancient historians rarely furnish dates, coins provide the basic chronology for many reigns during the Roman empire, to name just one of their uses. But the coins must be closely studied to provide that information, and collecting is advantageous to that study. Coins are usually illustrated in catalogues or online when they are sold, and those illustrations can be used by students. The ability to actually acquire coins spurs some collectors to study particular coinages in detail and publish their results. In the past many private collections have eventually been acquired by museums or universities, where they can be consulted by scholars for their studies, and are often also used in teaching.

I may mention that I myself have been a collector and student of Roman coinage for over fifty years. My first collection is now in the British Museum in London and the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford; my new collection, much larger, may end up at Yale University. I have studied and published articles about the coinages of a number of Roman emperors, and have many other such studies underway. I have made a number of small but important discoveries, for example that Septimius Severus’ defeat of Clodius Albinus near Lyon took place not on 19 February 197, as everyone had believed, but rather one year earlier, on 19 February 196. I believe that my collecting and my numismatic research are advantageous to the overall study of antiquity, and to the Italian state too, which must have an interest that Italy’s ancient culture should be widely studied and correctly understood. The extension of the Italian MOU to further classes of Roman coins would seriously impede my own collecting of such coins, of course, but also my study of them.
Curtis Clay

Offline Carausius

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2015, 11:51:43 am »

Offline Matthew C5

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
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Offline jskirwin

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2015, 10:34:12 pm »
Collecting Deification Issues in all forms.

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
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Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
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Offline Rupert

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Re: Italy MOU with United States
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2015, 04:03:20 pm »
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