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Author Topic: Museum exhibits  (Read 2195 times)

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Deflax

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Museum exhibits
« on: February 21, 2015, 09:02:26 am »
Can anyone advise on the best exhibits of roman imperial and/or Byzantine coins featured in a museum?

Offline carthago

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2015, 08:59:03 pm »
The National Museum of Rome is a safe bet.  Here's a thread on it from a couple years ago.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=90019.0

Offline SC

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2015, 05:09:36 am »
What do you mean by best?

Many museums (Rome, BM, Louvre) have, or have had, displays which exhibit one coin from each Emperor.  But there are other forms of display.  The Carnuntum museum a Bad-Deutsch Altenburg had a nice display a while back as part of its exhibit on religion in ancient Rome.  it only used coins with various deities on them.   Other museums (like Aquileia) highlight both single finds and hoards found at the site.  They might not all look as nice as the "Emperor set" collections but they are neat because they come from the very site you are visiting.  The Museo Nazionale Romano once had a display which consisted of a large clear plastic cylinder full of uncleaned coins.  It was meant to show what had been found at a votive deposit at a river crossing site.  It began with aes signatum on the bottom and went up to Imperial Roman coins at the top.   

Shawn
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Deflax

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2015, 10:42:39 am »
Thanks for the insight on the exhibits.  I guess "best" is not the most descriptive term!  Are there any museums in the United States that have good exhibits featuring various coins struck under each of the emperors? 

Thanks!

Offline Carausius

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2015, 11:03:28 am »
Boston's Museum of Fine Arts has a very fine ancient coin room.  I started a thread regarding the MFA exhibit not too long ago, which you can probably find using the Forum SEARCH feature.

Offline SC

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2015, 03:13:49 am »
I am not sure what is currently on display at the ANS HQ in NY.  I think their displays are open to all and not just members.

Shawn
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Offline Matthew C5

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2015, 12:22:54 pm »

From an older post:

'I guessed you checked out the museum bookshop. I expect, in line with the general practice in Italian museums today, they were selling ancient authentic aes grave in nice blue boxes, with little printed certificates. Or not?' 

Does this actually mean that the museums in Italy will sell truly ancient coins like that of Forvm?  I will be visiting Italy for a little over 2-weeks this year and was wondering if this is possible or advisable?

Offline Sosius

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2015, 10:24:00 am »

From an older post:

'I guessed you checked out the museum bookshop. I expect, in line with the general practice in Italian museums today, they were selling ancient authentic aes grave in nice blue boxes, with little printed certificates. Or not?'  

Does this actually mean that the museums in Italy will sell truly ancient coins like that of Forvm?  I will be visiting Italy for a little over 2-weeks this year and was wondering if this is possible or advisable?

I started a sh**storm on this list and the Italian list when I bought a little Constantine "eyes to God" Devicta bronze at the Capitoline gift shop.  I overpaid a little at 45 euros, but man, did I get some entertainment value out of that purchase.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=89827.0

In short, you can buy coins at the gift shops (or at least you could buy them at the Capitoline Museum in 2013).  They are a bit overpriced, but paying an extra 15-20 euros for a coin while on a vacation is no bid deal, especially when waters are 4-5 euros outside the Forum!

Sosius

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Offline Sosius

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2015, 11:06:29 am »
Here is the coin that started the sh**storm. Again, it was expensive for an LRB, but I loved the "Capitoline Museum Gift Shop" provenance, and it cost less than lunch for the family at the museum cafe, so it's all relative.



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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2015, 11:07:29 am »

From an older post:

'I guessed you checked out the museum bookshop. I expect, in line with the general practice in Italian museums today, they were selling ancient authentic aes grave in nice blue boxes, with little printed certificates. Or not?'  

Does this actually mean that the museums in Italy will sell truly ancient coins like that of Forvm?  I will be visiting Italy for a little over 2-weeks this year and was wondering if this is possible or advisable?

I started a sh**storm on this list and the Italian list when I bought a little Constantine "eyes to God" Devicta bronze at the Capitoline gift shop.  I overpaid a little at 45 euros, but man, did I get some entertainment value out of that purchase.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=89827.0

In short, you can buy coins at the gift shops (or at least you could buy them at the Capitoline Museum in 2013).  They are a bit overpriced, but paying an extra 15-20 euros for a coin while on a vacation is no bid deal, especially when waters are 4-5 euros outside the Forum!

Yes that thread and the related Italian-language fist-fight brings back delightful memories. Absolutely sublime.

My recollection is that [edit, just fact-checked] I saw the coins for sale around the same time as you were coin-shopping in the Capitoline. But when I mentioned what I saw on an Italian forum, confirmed by your actual purchase, this provoked adamant denials that such a thing could ever happen. This you scotched by giving us a photo of the coin in its little blue etui along with a photo of an official receipt for an ancient coin issued by an entity owned by the Italian Republic, in apparent contravention of the laws of the Italian Republic. The Italian language discussion on this "incident" was at 800 messages when I last looked. It ranks as perhaps my all-time favourite thread from nearly two decades of online discussion groups.

Offline Victor C

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2015, 11:49:01 am »
when I bought a little Constantine "eyes to God" Devicta bronze

Your reverse is CONSTANTINIANA DAFNE. The description from the museum of IOVI CONSERVATORI is also obviously wrong...maybe they just put the wrong coin in the box.
Victor Clark

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Offline Sosius

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2015, 01:00:18 pm »
You are correct about my mis-ID as well as that of the museum!
Sosius

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Offline Matthew C5

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2015, 01:05:13 pm »
Wow!  I just digested this string of posts.  Now I get why no-one was answering! lol

Not to open another 'can of worms' but the buisiness plan seems to make sense from the museums point of view:

1)hypothetically purchase 'historical' coins from outside Italy

2)make sure that they were not minted in Rome(just in case)

3)sell them at inflated prices to tourists


They can just re-sell what they bought fairly.  It doesn't have to matter that they(mints/cities) were loyal cities to Rome, because this is just history.  Of course the average coin 'buyer' will likely not realize about restrictions, but by that point it's a bit too late for any tourist to return their purchase.

I also read into the discussion that the priviledged-to-sell dealers in Italy have to love less competition with all of the restrictions;)

The only way this topic can get any more heated, is if some sneaky bugger threw-in a curve-ball about the religious implications of a Constantine coin!

For those militant-style coin restrictors I have one very ironic point to add:

At what point in time does the digging-up of old graves/tombs/catacombs/religious temples in Italy begin to become considered archaeology and not just a terrible desecration?  I think one has to look at the 'grey areas' with an open mind and respect. 

There are some of these issues going-on in North America, which could very well relate.

With the internet, these times share information so well.  If someone digs-up a rare historical coin, legit. or not, I believe it will turn-up for everyone to learn about soon enough;)

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2015, 02:47:59 pm »
Wow!  I just digested this string of posts.  Now I get why no-one was answering! lol

Not to open another 'can of worms' but the buisiness plan seems to make sense from the museums point of view:

1)hypothetically purchase 'historical' coins from outside Italy

2)make sure that they were not minted in Rome(just in case)

3)sell them at inflated prices to tourists
...
The only way this topic can get any more heated.
...

You are giving everyone involved way too much credit. There was no plan. We know that not just because of the optics of selling ancient artifacts in a museum shop but because selling such stuff to tourists for export with no supporting provenances, permissions and declarations by the Italian ministry of culture breaks a shed load of Italian laws, and even if one argues that a coin minted in Thessalonica or wherever is fine, it sets great precedents that helps the case of us collectors arguing against the MOUs on the basis of coins being minted outside Italy, and in any event for all we know that exact coin may have been dug up by a JCB repairing water pipes in Via del Corso, which is why the paperwork is supposed to be needed in the first place. There was no plan. This was a case of an entrepreneurial manager seeking extra revenue. "Tea-towels with pics of the Coliseum, check; Plastic gladiator outfits, check; genuine ancient coins, check; Erudite book on dull excavations, check, phallic key rings, check".

Not sure if you got to the 800 message off-Forum discussion. That got WAY more heated than anything said here.

Offline Sosius

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2015, 03:04:41 pm »
"Tea-towels with pics of the Coliseum, check; Plastic gladiator outfits, check; genuine ancient coins, check; Erudite book on dull excavations, check, phallic key rings, check".


Ha!  You forgot: Vespa man-purses, check; T-shirts of David, check; cheap cast monuments on faux marble bases, check; Rome Then and Now flip books, check; Lego gladiator mini-kits, check; LED Roma flashlights, check...

Do you have a link to the Italian posts?  It's been a while since I looked at the thread.
Sosius

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2015, 03:10:02 pm »
Wow!  I just digested this string of posts.  Now I get why no-one was answering! lol

Not to open another 'can of worms' but the buisiness plan seems to make sense from the museums point of view:

1)hypothetically purchase 'historical' coins from outside Italy

2)make sure that they were not minted in Rome(just in case)

3)sell them at inflated prices to tourists
...
The only way this topic can get any more heated.
...

You are giving everyone involved way too much credit. There was no plan. We know that not just because of the optics of selling ancient artifacts in a museum shop but because selling such stuff to tourists for export with no supporting provenances, permissions and declarations by the Italian ministry of culture breaks a shed load of Italian laws, and even if one argues that a coin minted in Thessalonica or wherever is fine, it sets great precedents that helps the case of us collectors arguing against the MOUs on the basis of coins being minted outside Italy, and in any event for all we know that exact coin may have been dug up by a JCB repairing water pipes in Via del Corso, which is why the paperwork is supposed to be needed in the first place. There was no plan. This was a case of an entrepreneurial manager seeking extra revenue. "Tea-towels with pics of the Coliseum, check; Plastic gladiator outfits, check; genuine ancient coins, check; Erudite book on dull excavations, check, phallic key rings, check".

Not sure if you got to the 800 message off-Forum discussion. That got WAY more heated than anything said here.

Hi Andrew,

But, at the very least, wouldn't the manager of an official government museum in Italy be aware of export restrictions?

Or is it a case where he just doesn't care how the tourists are going to get these items out of the country ("That's not my problem")?

Meepzorp

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Re: Museum exhibits
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2015, 03:33:55 pm »
It wasn't just export controls that was the issue. There were multiple issues. The shop was a government owned entity (it was a company owned by the City of Rome but intended to operate autonomously as if it were private) and a different law absolutely forbids sale by the government of artifacts. Then, whether or not an item is intended for export there's all sorts of requirements on provenance declarations, and licences needed to deal in antiquities. There was the issue of precedents and messaging. There was the question of the validity of the guarantee that you'll see printed on the ticket of Sosius' coin. Then there was the issue of accepted custom and practice whereby it's even today accepted that the state has no interest in the sale of LRBs within the Italian domestic retail market (which this technically was even though the sales were targeted at foreigners). And a whole host of other issues I can't even remember. Enough anyway to generate an 800 message thread about one mediocre common LRB.

As I recall, opinions split four ways, those who thought it perfectly legal and a very good thing, those who thought it totally illegal and a very bad thing, those who thought it a bad thing but technically within the law, and those who thought it a very good thing but technically in breach. Many of the facts were unknown e.g. who actually owned the items being sold, and there was even a huge amount of debate about what the regulations were, and what took precedence, and at the opposite end many who noted that the regulations were acknowledged nonsense and a practical approach had to be taken. Compared to this, the recent online debates about the colour of that dress (blue-black in bright sunshine or white-gold in the shade) were as simple as tic tac toe.

So as to avoid restarting this massive discussion its probably best we don't re-excavate this old ground, but take Sosius and and I at our word - it was a helluva debate.

 

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