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Author Topic: Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query  (Read 2461 times)

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Offline coldavo

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Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query
« on: January 23, 2015, 01:56:05 am »
Hi All,

Below is a photograph of a Ptolemy Bronze Zeus/Eagle of 28mm diameter and 8.5 gram weight (Svoronos 1813). It is unusual in that it has an Aphlaston to the left of the eagle and, if you Google it, you come up with a number of different Ptolemies and numerous dates including:

Wildwinds attributes Sv1813 to Ptolemy IX and Ptolemy X – so 116-80BC

Manzikert (a contributor to the Forum) thinks that it is Ptolemy XI and Cleopatra IV 107-101BC

Forum Coins sold one as Ptolemy IX, 2nd reign 88-80BC or Ptolemy XII, 1st reign 80-58BC

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Q1u4dDx_JXsC&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=%22svoronos+1813%22&source=bl&ots=UT4U4zUTKW&sig=wYOlMqsn4nD7lOrMRELa93yK1bk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MeTBVOe_IIL28QXs5oDYAQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22svoronos%201813%22&f=false    The above link states re Sv 1813 “attributed to 117-80BC; Regling says later is probably correct”.

As well as the above I have read the article “Cypriot Bronze Coins of Cleopatra with Caesarion; Two Eagles on Ptolemaic Coins as Representations of Co-Regency” by Richard Pincock. I find his arguments, that two eagle Ptolemy coins denote joint reigns, to be very clear and hard to refute. If you accept his arguments and the accepted dating of 116-80BC for the two Ptolemies then this one-eagle coin must date to Ptolemy IX 88-81BC as all other reign periods during this time are joint rules (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty#Ptolemaic_rulers_and_consorts ).

I feel that Forum Coins got it right with the 88-80Bc date – what do other members of the Forum think.

All the best,
Col


Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2015, 07:46:00 pm »
Hi All,

Below is a photograph of a Ptolemy Bronze Zeus/Eagle of 28mm diameter and 8.5 gram weight (Svoronos 1813). It is unusual in that it has an Aphlaston to the left of the eagle and, if you Google it, you come up with a number of different Ptolemies and numerous dates including:

Wildwinds attributes Sv1813 to Ptolemy IX and Ptolemy X – so 116-80BC

Manzikert (a contributor to the Forum) thinks that it is Ptolemy XI and Cleopatra IV 107-101BC

Forum Coins sold one as Ptolemy IX, 2nd reign 88-80BC or Ptolemy XII, 1st reign 80-58BC

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Q1u4dDx_JXsC&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=%22svoronos+1813%22&source=bl&ots=UT4U4zUTKW&sig=wYOlMqsn4nD7lOrMRELa93yK1bk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MeTBVOe_IIL28QXs5oDYAQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22svoronos%201813%22&f=false    The above link states re Sv 1813 “attributed to 117-80BC; Regling says later is probably correct”.

As well as the above I have read the article “Cypriot Bronze Coins of Cleopatra with Caesarion; Two Eagles on Ptolemaic Coins as Representations of Co-Regency” by Richard Pincock. I find his arguments, that two eagle Ptolemy coins denote joint reigns, to be very clear and hard to refute. If you accept his arguments and the accepted dating of 116-80BC for the two Ptolemies then this one-eagle coin must date to Ptolemy IX 88-81BC as all other reign periods during this time are joint rules (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty#Ptolemaic_rulers_and_consorts ).

I feel that Forum Coins got it right with the 88-80Bc date – what do other members of the Forum think.

All the best,
Col



1.  There are at least 2 different types of later period Ptolemaic bronzes with aphlaston at left - you can see two of them (Sv 1813 and Sv 1703) on the coin photos page at:

www.ptolemybronze.com

This coin could be a third type.  Interesting to see the aphlaston 'reappear'.  It was used on some early bronzes of (Ptolemy I - II) as a value mark (penta-chalkon) in the early 3rd C and then disappeared from use on Ptolemaic bronze coins for about 150 - 200 years until these coins were made.

2. It's a safe bet no one will know very soon the exact date this coin was made.  Probably the best we can do is say it is 'late 2nd C to early 1st C BC'.   That being so, anyone can call it anything they want (Ptolemy VIII, IX, X, XI, XII etc.) and no one can prove they are mistaken.  So take your pick of whatever ruler or exact date suits you - within about a 50 year stretch, your guess is as good (or :) as anyone else's guess.  And whichever one it might happen to actually be (we might actually find out some day) is unlikely to make the coin any more or less interesting or more or less valuable.  It's already interesting in the context it shares with a number of other designs of about that time period with many odd symbols.

3. The 'theory' that:

# of eagles = # of rulers

on Ptolemaic bronze coins is amazingly popular because it is so appealing but it succumbs very quickly when subjected to more than casual scrutiny (i.e. when its inconsistencies and evidence to the contrary are taken into account).  A fair discussion on it is found in the 'Interesting Questions about Ptolemaic Bronze Coinage' section of www.ptolemybronze.com (there's a link to it).  In spite of its demonstrable weaknesses, it is uncritically repeated so often that it is unlikely to ever go away :)

Imho, we are likely better off not trying to imbue this particular eagle design with a *special* meaning when we don't do likewise for the many other 'eagle' designs we see on Ptolemaic bronze coins.

PtolemAE

Offline coldavo

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Re: Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2015, 03:28:01 am »
Hi PtolemAe,

Thanks again for the information - very helpful.

This time I didn't look at the ptolemybronze link as I "knew" what the Svoronos number was, from a previous coin in my collection,and was checking only on the dating possibilities.

After your reply I had a bit further look at the various illustrations of these coins and was interested to see, as you mention, the possible varieties of large and small Aphlastons placed much higher and lower on the coin - as well as the variable weights.

Next time I will look a bit further before I decide that I "know" the Sv number.

All the best,
Col

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2015, 09:51:49 pm »
Hi PtolemAe,

Thanks again for the information - very helpful.

This time I didn't look at the ptolemybronze link as I "knew" what the Svoronos number was, from a previous coin in my collection,and was checking only on the dating possibilities.

After your reply I had a bit further look at the various illustrations of these coins and was interested to see, as you mention, the possible varieties of large and small Aphlastons placed much higher and lower on the coin - as well as the variable weights.

Next time I will look a bit further before I decide that I "know" the Sv number.

All the best,
Col

Thanks, Col

These are interesting - all the 'late' ones with odd symbols.  In this case we have catalog #s for one type about 8gm with a HUGE aphlaston to the left of a single eagle (Sv 1813), not all that rare (there are records for about 35 specimens).  Then there's another with a small aphlaston at left of two eagles, maybe a slightly smaller coin (Sv 1703) which is *extremely* rare (only 2 recorded).  And now you're showing one that seems to have the small aphlaston, but only one eagle, and about the size/weight of the Sv 1813.  Maybe it's just a variety of Sv 1813 with a little smaller aphlaston but maybe not.  Fortunately it's easy to tell 1703 apart from 1813 (not just the size of the symbol but 1703 has two eagles, 1813 has only one) so we can be pretty sure about them.  It would be pretty easy to 'identify' the coin you've shown as an 1813 if one weren't paying attention to somewhat different sizes of the aphlaston symbols - so maybe that is relevant, maybe not.  The portrait style on this coin looks quite a bit like the portrait style on the Sv 1813 types so maybe the smaller aphlaston here is just a variation. 

As for the 'two eagles = two rulers' idea, there are many cases of multiple bronze coin types with similar symbols and controls made at roughly the same time and place with varying #s of eagles.  The idea quickly collapses under even modest scrutiny unless one resorts to some pretty complicated (and unconvincing) 'pretzel-logic' to evade many inconsistencies.

PtolemAE




Offline djmacdo

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Re: Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2015, 11:46:31 pm »
If you like ambiguity and have the ability to entertain several different interpretations of the same phenomenon at once, then late Ptolemaics are really appealing.  If you want certainty, they will drive you mad.

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2015, 02:58:22 am »
If you like ambiguity and have the ability to entertain several different interpretations of the same phenomenon at once, then late Ptolemaics are really appealing.  If you want certainty, they will drive you mad.

Ha!  Well said.

Certainty is going to require patience :)

PtolemAE

Offline Matt Kreuzer

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Re: Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2015, 09:40:36 pm »

I also support the Ptolemy IX, 2nd reign attribution.  Lack of central dimple identifies it as a fairly late issue, and other factors suggest this 88-80 BC reign.
Ptolemy IX won a naval battle over his brother Ptolemy X in either 88 or 87 BC.  Ptolemy X was apparently killed during the battle.  Use of this symbol may honor the Cypriot naval victory.
After a naval victory, the apluster was often removed from captured ships.  They were sometimes used as a component of naval battle trophies.  While less important than Actium in 31 BC, this battle was a significant event for the Kingdom.

For this reign, two eagles would be Ptolemy IX and Berenike III.  They were co-rulers.

Matt

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 01:32:52 am »
Quote from: Matt Kreuzer on January 27, 2015, 09:40:36 pm

I also support the Ptolemy IX, 2nd reign attribution.  Lack of central dimple identifies it as a fairly late issue, and other factors suggest this 88-80 BC reign.
Ptolemy IX won a naval battle over his brother Ptolemy X in either 88 or 87 BC.  Ptolemy X was apparently killed during the battle.  Use of this symbol may honor the Cypriot naval victory.
After a naval victory, the apluster was often removed from captured ships.  They were sometimes used as a component of naval battle trophies.  While less important than Actium in 31 BC, this battle was a significant event for the Kingdom.

For this reign, two eagles would be Ptolemy IX and Berenike III.  They were co-rulers.

Matt

The coin in this thread has one eagle, not two.  If it's from the reign of 'co-rulers' Ptolemy IX and Berenike III that would make this coin yet another of the many counterexamples to the 'two rulers = two eagles' theory.

PtolemAE

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2015, 01:59:24 am »
Hi PtolemAe,

Thanks again for the information - very helpful.

This time I didn't look at the ptolemybronze link as I "knew" what the Svoronos number was, from a previous coin in my collection,and was checking only on the dating possibilities.

After your reply I had a bit further look at the various illustrations of these coins and was interested to see, as you mention, the possible varieties of large and small Aphlastons placed much higher and lower on the coin - as well as the variable weights.

Next time I will look a bit further before I decide that I "know" the Sv number.

All the best,
Col

Upon further reflection, there's another interesting twist to this coin - the 'direction' the aplustre (aphlaston) is facing is the same as on Sv 1813. This coin not only seems to have the smaller size aphlaston we see on Sv 1703, it is small (like 1703) but facing the same direction as on Sv 1813 (opposite that on 1703).  Also this coin has only one eagle while Sv 1703 has two.

One contributor posted the conjecture that this one-eagle coin is from the 'co-rule' period of Ptolemy IX and Berenike III, the aphlaston commemorating a naval victory during that rule.  But if (as some believe) '# eagles = # rulers' then it should have two eagles, not one.  Something doesn't seem right there...  It's a puzzlement (an antinomy, actually :) 

Not sure anyone really knows what to make of so many unusual symbols (thunderbolt, star, bee, wreath, caduceus, etc. that are not easily associated with an  historical event) on apparently related types with a seemingly random mix of one and two eagles.  Often said to have been minted on Cyprus they seem to turn up in finds in Israel and Egypt.  They are a mysterious group.

PtolemAE

Offline Matt Kreuzer

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Re: Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2015, 09:27:31 am »


PtolemAE mentions: 1) Puzzlement.  2) Antimony (sic).  3) "anyone really knows what. . . " 4) "seemingly random" and 5) mysterious.

PtolemAE knows there is so much we don't know. 
However the origin of Svoronos 1813 is known.  And apparently the apluster links to this important naval battle.   

"One contributor posted the conjecture that this one-eagle coin is from the 'co-rule' period of Ptolemy IX and Berenike III, the aphlaston commemorating a naval victory during that rule.  But if (as some believe) '# eagles = # rulers' then it should have two eagles, not one.  Something doesn't seem right there...  It's a puzzlement (an antinomy, actually :)"

As supported by Richard Pincock, for Ptolemaic bronze coins a single eagle sometimes meant a single ruler on the throne, while two eagles always meant two rulers.  It doesn't work the other way and inverting the logic to bash it seems unfair to his view.  If his rule is incorrect, then produce a two eagle Ptolemaic bronze that was not made under a known joint reign?
 
"Not sure anyone really knows what to make of so many unusual symbols (thunderbolt, star, bee, wreath, caduceus, etc. that are not easily associated with an  historical event) on apparently related types with a seemingly random mix of one and two eagles." 

The bee doesn't belong on this list of symbols, right?  I don't see any examples on the PtolemAE website or in Paphos II.
I suggested that the naval symbol on Svoronos 1813 links to a historical event in 88 or 87 BC.  Yes, there are other symbols, and presumably they have other meanings.  The link I suggest is an idea for this symbol.  The naval defeat and death of Ptolemy X does fit the suggested time period for this issue.

"Often said to have been minted on Cyprus they seem to turn up in finds in Israel and Egypt.  They are a mysterious group."
The type of Svoronos 1813 is Cypriot and quite common there.  They are found in Cypriot ground finds.  13 examples were recorded in Paphos II.  I believe that all references do assign this type to Cyprus.  I see many of them in Cypriot bronze groups.

The fabric of Svoronos 1703 seems different from Svoronos 1813.   The type is rare.  As suggested from the Svoronos plate coin, the flan is chunky, not spread.  In addition, there seems to be a central dimple.  There are two eagles and the aphlaston is smaller.  Apparently, this is an earlier issue with a similar naval symbol.  Svoronos places the type earlier too.

Matt Kreuzer

Offline coldavo

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Re: Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2015, 03:51:41 am »
Hi,

Thank you all who replied to my query - especially PtolemAE and Matt Kreuzer.

After all of the discussion I went back and checked over the fors and againsts re the two eagle/two ruler theory. I never did worry about the "fact" that many joint rules of husband and wife or sister showed only one eagle. I've always felt that the Ptolemies (with a very few exceptions) regarded the female of the species as a second-class citizen and (possibly) not worthy of a second (or third ) eagle. In any case, after weighing the pros and cons on the subject I come out strongly on the side of one of the persons replying to my query:- djmacdo stated above "If you like ambiguity and have the ability to entertain several different interpretations of the same phenomenon at once, then late Ptolemaics are really appealing. If you want certainty, they will drive you mad."

Thanks again for an interesting and informative discussion.

All the best,
Col

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Ptolemy Bronze Svoronos 1813 with Aphlaston - Query
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2015, 12:09:08 am »
Hi,

Thank you all who replied to my query - especially PtolemAE and Matt Kreuzer.

After all of the discussion I went back and checked over the fors and againsts re the two eagle/two ruler theory. I never did worry about the "fact" that many joint rules of husband and wife or sister showed only one eagle. I've always felt that the Ptolemies (with a very few exceptions) regarded the female of the species as a second-class citizen and (possibly) not worthy of a second (or third ) eagle. In any case, after weighing the pros and cons on the subject I come out strongly on the side of one of the persons replying to my query:- djmacdo stated above "If you like ambiguity and have the ability to entertain several different interpretations of the same phenomenon at once, then late Ptolemaics are really appealing. If you want certainty, they will drive you mad."

Thanks again for an interesting and informative discussion.

All the best,
Col

Ptolemaic queens were often rather important, even ascending to the status of a cult goddess recognized still 100 years after death, or actually ruling during a king's youth or his absence while leading armies abroad.  Several queens are depicted on high-value silver and gold coins, at least two even with jugate portraits shared with the king.  Not sure how anyone could tell if any of them *wasn't* a 'co-ruler'.  Rather than second class, the queens seem to have been highly revered regal equals.  One queen even has her name on the obverses of several bronze coins with the king's name on the reverses.  During the period of the late bronzes discussed in this thread, with the plethora of peculiar reverse symbols and various numbers of eagles, the rule changed between a mother and two sons and their sister during a fairly short period of time, almost like a game of musical chairs.  As djmacdo said so well, these late bronzes coins defy our wishes for simple answers about the meaning of their symbols and their chronology and value structure.  Afaik, only one of these dozen or so types has started to give up its secrets.

PtolemAE


 

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