Classical Numismatics Discussion
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: "The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: "The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples  (Read 46675 times)
kklinejr
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« on: December 20, 2003, 07:30:23 am »

OK, by now those who have been reading this section or the forgery section of FORVM will note that several members have been discovering mass produced fakes in some of their batches.  The coins are all of a very similar style, and should be somewhat easy to discern from genuine pieces.  However, now that the discovery has been made, and many coins are being returned to their retailers and suppliers, it will only be a matter of time before the coins become more and more difficult to pick out with better die making procedures (yes, it is a very long shot that someone would take so much time to produce common Fel Temps, but since it has already been done for someone's great profit, it will only be a matter of time before someone else tries to make better, more convincing dies- good old human nature at its best).  

We'll keep this post here as a small database of known examples- simply pieces to keep an eye out for.  Please note, it is the opinion of most that these are not ancient barbaric imititations, but rather mass produced copies usually produced on copper planchets within the past few months or so.

Ken  Smiley
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kklinejr
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2003, 07:32:43 am »

Lee Johnson , aka OLDCOINMAN (one of eBay's most respected uncleaned dealers), has been nice enough to send these images of some examples he has discovered and returned to the European suppliers.
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LordBest
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2003, 07:33:47 am »

I doubt the problem will ever reach dangerous proportions personally. Now that the chase is on, so to speak, for the culprits, and more people look closely at their uncleaned lots, it will become increasingly difficult to manufacture enough forgeries cheap enough to fool sufficient peopel to make it worthwhile.
                                          LordBest. Cool
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kklinejr
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2003, 07:34:39 am »

Another group of coins discovered by FORVM member 60_Driver.  Thank you for the pictures.
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kklinejr
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2003, 07:37:18 am »

Thanks for the scans, Brian.
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kklinejr
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2003, 07:43:17 am »

Yes, LB, I too agree that it would be ridiculous for someone to go through such great expense to create better dies for such little profit...however, there are always those one or two folks who get that "lightbulb" in the head and think it will make them a great profit.  For collectors, they are more of an annoyance than a serious problem.  Perhaps by putting out our feelers, the practice will simply cease...one can only hope.

Ken  Smiley
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oerlikon20mm
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2003, 08:13:50 am »

VRBS ROMA "Wolf and Twins" Example.

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oerlikon20mm
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2003, 08:14:15 am »

Reverse
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oerlikon20mm
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2003, 08:15:43 am »

CONSTANTINOPOLI "Victory with Shield Reverse" Example
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oerlikon20mm
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2003, 08:16:08 am »

Reverse
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2003, 08:37:04 am »

If someone is in regular contact with Mr Johnson, how about reporting back what his supplier (or supplier's supplier) has to say about the coins being returned.  Coming from a specific country, a certain dealer, 'I had no idea', whatever...
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Pertinax
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2003, 08:57:52 am »

I doubt the problem will ever reach dangerous proportions personally. Now that the chase is on, so to speak, for the culprits, and more people look closely at their uncleaned lots, it will become increasingly difficult to manufacture enough forgeries cheap enough to fool sufficient peopel to make it worthwhile.
                                          LordBest. Cool

I bet the 95% of all people who buy uncleaned coins and never come here have no doubt about the authenticity of their "fake" coins. Everyone talks always about the fact that forging coins is supposed to be expensive. In this case making the dies would have been your only cost. How much? 100$? If you're experienced you do it even yourself.
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LordBest
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2003, 09:20:52 am »

And make the fakes so obvious that people will eventually notice and the whole thing will come unravelled. No, there is no threat from these at all.
                                      LordBest. Cool
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Inter arma enim silent leges
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2003, 09:47:41 am »

Fake Jovians...
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Pertinax
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2003, 09:48:31 am »

Fake Jovian reverses....
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Pertinax
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2003, 09:49:27 am »

Fake Byzhantyan nummiae
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Pertinax
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« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2003, 09:50:07 am »

Fake Byzhantyan reverses...
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Pertinax
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« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2003, 09:51:05 am »

More she-wolf fakes...
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Pertinax
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« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2003, 09:52:04 am »

The reverse
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kklinejr
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« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2003, 09:53:33 am »

Tacitus,

That's a fine idea.  Chip, the photos of the coins you posted were all authentic pieces to our eyes...in fact, I am envious.  Several of them had very good detailing!!!  We moved them out of this section to avoid confusion with the current fakes being discussed.

Thanks!

Ken  Smiley
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kklinejr
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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2003, 11:40:34 am »

Here is the website that Bob Bischoff was kind enough to generate since he received many of these in his last shipment from Europe.  It is a great page outlining the basics on these pieces.

Ken Smiley

http://members.aol.com/petronicoins/uncleanedfakes.html
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roscoedaisy
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« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2003, 12:21:57 pm »

Well I just received 30 'crusties' in the mail today and ALL 30 were fakes of this kind.  Here is a scan after a super brief encounter with a toothbrush.  I only scanned 18 of them and cant be bothered with the reverses or with the other 12.  Someone needs to beat the heck out of whoever is doing this.  Note the crappy style and the modern legends.

I am really PO'd now.
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roscoedaisy
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« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2003, 01:11:38 pm »

These coins run the gamut.  Lots of different late empire rulers and types are here.  They came with a full layer of dirt, but looked VERY conspicuous as a grouping as they all had the same size/coloration.  They werent true crusties as they go with no lumpy/concrete type encrustations.  I called them crusties only because they were advertised as such.  The green you see can be easily removed with a bit more scrubbing but I really wont bother.

Their current appearance is after about 3-4 swipes with a toothbrush and distilled water each.  Seriously.

And yes the dealer has a money-back policy.  If it were 3 or 4 coins out of 30 I might have let it go, but honestly my 2 year old daughter could have seen an issue with these coins even before a toothbrush.  I mean, the V's are modern V's...no attempt at all to make any letter look ancient.

I would suggest a LYE bath for whoever made these and passed them on.  But Evan (Wolfgang) might get mad at me!  Haha..

RD
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roscoedaisy
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2003, 01:40:27 pm »

Notice the largest coin I posted, the Justinian is a perfect match for this coin that appears on the webpage Ken links us to.  I dub him Cyclops.
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roscoedaisy
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« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2003, 02:50:31 pm »

uh oh. This coin looks familiar. This seller has some really overcleaned (zapped) coins and this one looks like our fake. What do you think?


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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: "The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples « previous next »
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