FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board

Numismatic and History Discussions => Byzantine Coins => Topic started by: Simon on May 05, 2004, 06:53:00 pm



Title: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: Simon on May 05, 2004, 06:53:00 pm
From Catalouge of the Coins found in Corinth 1925  New Haven 1930  taken from Coinage in South-Eastern Europe 820-1396 by D.M. Metcalf.

ADMIN UPDATE  

See Anonymous Byzantine Class A Folles on NumisWiki:  http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Anonymous%20Byzantine%20Class%20A%20Folles

This thread has been modified to highlight its evolved relationship to the NumisWiki page.

Post new ornament variations here!


Title: Class A Follis Ornaments
Post by: Simon on June 09, 2004, 05:45:33 am
The key.


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: yafet_rasnal on August 02, 2004, 01:11:35 pm
I found an unlisted variety...it has the first two symbols like number 41, but the third like number 29. weight 8.7 - 8.8 g

Christ


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: yafet_rasnal on August 02, 2004, 01:13:14 pm
other side


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Simon on August 02, 2004, 02:10:29 pm
I concur, it is not listed with that sheet! :) We should check DOC as well. This sheet was written in the first half of the last century. Regardless even if it is  listed it will certainly be rare.

Simon


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on January 07, 2007, 06:12:29 am
Maybe we could try to prepare a new sheet  ;D

Your wish is granted:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Anonymous%20Byzantine%20Class%20A%20Folles

The illustrations in the original table have been drawn as transparent .gifs.  You can cut-and-paste their URLs and post them between image tags here on the Discussion Board.  A new table can be found below it to document new finds.  It has its own numbering system instead of continuing on with #52 just in case there is a reason the original table is ordered the way it is or if there is already an updated one somewhere with higher numbers.

Enjoy,

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on January 07, 2007, 10:33:36 am
Kevin,

Great !
If you agree, I will send a link to the German NumismatikForum Byzanz -
there are a lot of collectors who are interested in these Rex Regnatium Folles also.
byzantiumcoins

BASIL II Bulgaroktonos ( 976-1025 ) Anonymous Follis with Bust of Christ ( ornament variety A2.50 ) - SEAR 1813
Obverse Bust of Jesus Christ with crescent / 2 pellets in the limbs of the nimbus cross and a single pellet on the book of Gospels
Reverse IhSUS / XRISTUS / BASILEU / BASILE ( JESUS CHRIST KING OF KINGS ) in 4 lines -
horizontal S between strokes above and below





Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on January 07, 2007, 09:37:53 pm
Kevin,

Great !
If you agree, I will send a link to the German NumismatikForum Byzanz -
there are a lot of collectors who are interested in these Rex Regnatium Folles also.
byzantiumcoins

Yes, feel free to post the link :)  Let me know if any new entries need to be added too.

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: yafet_rasnal on January 08, 2007, 01:46:25 am
A new variety
(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR24.gif) (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAN_B.gif)    (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAB_I.gif)
present in Museo Bottacin, Padova, Italy,cat n.429


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on January 08, 2007, 02:54:46 am
Is it the same as this one ?
This is a subvariant of the rare Var. 33, though it is slightly diff. from the one pictured in the Bellinger list.

Regards
byzantiumcoins


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: yafet_rasnal on January 08, 2007, 04:35:28 am
Is it the same as this one ?
This is a subvariant of the rare Var. 33, though it is slightly diff. from the one pictured in the Bellinger list.

Regards
byzantiumcoins

Nope, it's
(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR24.gif) REVERSE ORNAMENTAL
(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAN_B.gif) NIMBUS
(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAB_I.gif) BOOK


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on January 08, 2007, 04:38:38 am
very interesting !
Can you supply a foto / scan ?
byzantiumcoins


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: yafet_rasnal on January 08, 2007, 04:46:48 am
Here it's. By the way i am preparing a webpage about these oranmentals with photos of coins. Byzantiumcoins, may i use your photos too?


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on January 08, 2007, 05:17:00 am
Dear Lorenzo,

Fantastic !
I really have ( and have seen ) quite a few of these variants, but this one is completely new !
Thanks very much for posting it.

Of course you may use my fotos for your site, just mention Byzantiumcoins as the source
I will send you more in a private email.

Wolfgang


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on January 08, 2007, 06:21:42 am
A new variety
(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR24.gif) (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAN_B.gif)    (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAB_I.gif)
present in Museo Bottacin, Padova, Italy,cat n.429

This has been added to the New Varieties Table as "2F".

Is it the same as this one ?
This is a subvariant of the rare Var. 33, though it is slightly diff. from the one pictured in the Bellinger list.

Regards
byzantiumcoins

Is your coin the following?:

Reverse:  (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR_02F.gif)
Nimbus:     (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAN_F.gif)
Book:     (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAB_A.gif)

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: yafet_rasnal on January 08, 2007, 08:18:24 am
I think that Wolfgang coin has one dot on book.


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on January 08, 2007, 08:41:04 am
Yes.
Lorenzo is right - this coin is a completely new mix of ornament varities,
I have only labelled it 33var because of the reverse ornament.

btw I think var 31 and 33a are the same, the 4 "pellets" of 33a are just 4 triangles forming the cross and the arrow is the same thing as the Greek Phi 

look at the 2 fotos of coins in my personal coll.

Wolfgang


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: yafet_rasnal on January 08, 2007, 09:07:14 am
So you mean that the nimbus ornamental of Bellinger 33 is the same of Bellinger 31, right? I think it's highly probable, also because there's just one variety with this nimbus (strange).
I also think that the nimbus 43  and 44 has a dot in the center of the X


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on January 08, 2007, 09:35:26 am
So you mean that the nimbus ornamental of Bellinger 33 is the same of Bellinger 31, right?

No, not var 33 ! Var. 33 has got nothing to do with these.

Metcalfs Var. 31 and 33a!  are the same, in Bellingers old list of 1928 there was only 31, but no 33a -
It was Metcalf who included 33a in the DOC list whithout having a 33a in the DOC collection.
He quotes the coin in Paris, no. 64 which, unfortunately is not pictured in the Bibliotheque Nationale book.
Mme. Morrison wrote, that Bellinger didn´t know this variant, but I am sure he knew it and listed it as no. 31

Byzantiumcoins 


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: yafet_rasnal on January 08, 2007, 11:07:33 am
Oooppsss. I thought you were still referring to the Bellinger table  ;D
I never saw a Bellinger 33, so i wonder if the 4 dotted nimbus ornamental is or not the same "cross" of the cross of n.31. What do you think?


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on January 08, 2007, 01:38:23 pm
I have never seen a proper var 33 as desribed by Bellinger and Metcalf either and I wonder if not my 33var is in fact 33 ??
You see this is absolutely one of the most fascinating fields in Byzantine numismatics.
Have you received my email ?

Wolfgang



Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: cmcdon0923 on January 08, 2007, 08:42:28 pm
Forgive my ignorance on this topic.  While I love the anonymous folles series, the ornamentation classification is a bit new to me.  Among my Class A pieces is this one....if I'm reqading this correctly, I don't see the reverse listed anywhere on the tables.  (I also enjoy the "manus Dei" on the obverse....



Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on January 09, 2007, 12:42:15 am
Hello cmcdon0923,

thank you for sharing your coin.
You are completely right, this rare variant is not in the old Bellinger list of ornament varities.
Grierson icluded it into the list when writing the DOC books as nr. 24a -
Since the coins of this variant in the DOC collection are quite worn he could not exactly determine the ornament in the book.
With your specimen and a few other found since the 70ties it is now clear, that Grierson´s Var. 24a has 2 pellets in the nimbus cross,
2 pellets in the book and this floral ornament on the reverse. ( this reverse ornament also occurs on var. 39-40 of Bellingers list )

The "Manus Dei" though it is not a regular varity but a beautiful "coincidence" makes your coin a unique masterpiece.

byzantiumcoins 


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on January 09, 2007, 08:46:57 pm
Yes.
Lorenzo is right - this coin is a completely new mix of ornament varities,
I have only labelled it 33var because of the reverse ornament.

Ahh, I see now how it's just one dot as I'm fairly new to these types of coins.  OK, this has been christened "3F" in our table so we can avoid confusing labels ;D

btw I think var 31 and 33a are the same, the 4 "pellets" of 33a are just 4 triangles forming the cross and the arrow is the same thing as the Greek Phi 

So there are some different ones in DO too?  Should we create a table for them?  Or should we call this 33a by our own number, if it is worth doing so at all since you believe it to actually be B. 31 (though the Bellinger table was drawn as it was even though B. 33 is in question)?

Hello cmcdon0923,

thank you for sharing your coin.
You are completely right, this rare variant is not in the old Bellinger list of ornament varities.
Grierson icluded it into the list when writing the DOC books as nr. 24a -
Since the coins of this variant in the DOC collection are quite worn he could not exactly determine the ornament in the book.
With your specimen and a few other found since the 70ties it is now clear, that Grierson´s Var. 24a has 2 pellets in the nimbus cross,
2 pellets in the book and this floral ornament on the reverse. ( this reverse ornament also occurs on var. 39-40 of Bellingers list )

Since cmcdon0923's coin is 24a in DO, the same question arises, should I create a table for these or add it to our present table of unlisted varieties with a new number?

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Ornaments
Post by: byzantiumcoins on January 09, 2007, 11:03:04 pm
I will be out of town until tomorrow, so for now only that much: Grierson´s list in DOC is generally accepted and used, even if there may be a few faults, so we should not ignore it.
In general I try not to use completely new numbers, but assign a new variant to the known one that is closest.
Byzantiumcoins



Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Orthodoxcoins on January 10, 2007, 02:05:48 am
I can't find this one in your table:


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Orthodoxcoins on January 10, 2007, 02:18:27 am
.....and a nice example of #3


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: yafet_rasnal on January 10, 2007, 02:22:06 am
I can't find this one in your table:

Isn't it #1 ?


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Orthodoxcoins on January 10, 2007, 03:25:44 am
Isn't it #1 ?
Quote

Yes, it's very similar, but there one dot more above, and down below the woll-line is break off with two dots more.

 :) I dont want to be a subsubvariants discoverer!  Pre-Alexius coins are not my area.
But  you have my promise - I'll  post here and in my site more then 15 new Byzantine types from the 13 - 14 century!


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Orthodoxcoins on January 11, 2007, 11:20:57 am
Isn't it #1 ?
Quote

This is # 1


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on January 11, 2007, 01:44:04 pm
@ orthodoxcoin:

nice subvariant of var 1 -
my specimen also has the normal 3 pellets only:

Byzantiumcoins



Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: yafet_rasnal on January 14, 2007, 02:02:07 am
Today i was checking the Sear and i found something strange: on some good preserved coins the legend of the reverse there is IhSUS XRISTUS BASILEU' BASILE' with strokes for missing letter. But on Sear i didn't find any trace of these strokes. Strange


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on February 06, 2007, 03:01:47 pm
Greetings Everyone,

I am happy to announce that I have drastically restructured the table and have hopefully created the most up-to-date presentation of this subject available.  Since I believe this project now deserves its own page, I moved it here:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Anonymous%20Byzantine%20Class%20A%20Folles

I also updated the address in my first post on this thread so new readers won't click "Ornamentation" and feel lost.  I left a link on that old page to direct people to this project though.  "Ornamentation" can still be a useful page with other coins and their ornaments, such as the "VICTORIAE LAETAE PRINC PERP" series.  I already drew them and they are among the reply symbols.  Perhaps someday they can be organized in that Wiki page.

In studying the Grierson table, I decided to combine it with the Bellinger table and even research the issues myself.  While Grierson was meant to be an update and replacement for Bellinger, it too is not the complete and final authority on the subject.  Nor was it intended to be.  While Grierson does correct and update Bellinger in several entries, Bellinger was actually correct over Grierson on one issue so far.  Also, the Grierson table had a few errors itself which I corrected.  Other ornaments also differed in just an artistic sense in comparison to the actual coins and I redrew them to conform more with the real thing.

I also moved the variants that we have discovered into this updated table to better show the relationships between them and similar variants.  I placed an "F" in front of their numbers to designate them as discoveries of this FORVM effort.  This way, people hopefully won't look for these new variants in the original tables and find themselves confused.  I continue the existing tradition of the Grierson table to label them as "a", "b", "c" and so on.  If a coin is a variant of one of those letters, then a number is added after said letter (e.g. "a2", "a3", "a4").  As a result, the following numbers have changed:

— "1F" is actually "41" and is thus no longer a new variant
— "2F" becomes "F24c"
— "3F" becomes "F33b"

The coin that Orthodoxcoins shares above has been named "F1b".  Byzantiumcoins also shared photos of several new variants with me and they have been named and added to the table.

Cmcdon0923's coin, while not a new variant, does identify the previously unknown book ornament of "24a".  For some strange reason, the NumisWiki persists in dropping the "cd" from his name so I used his name "Craig" in the credits.

As for the organization of this effort, here are the features in order of appearance:

— An illustrative example of how a Class A Follis is arranged.

— The table for official issues.  It is color-coded to show the evolution of the research conducted by Bellinger, Grierson and ourselves.  Bellinger entries that were obviously corrected by Grierson have been replaced by the latter on the table.  Conflicting entries that are still in doubt are both listed.  Hopefully we can resolve them shortly in subsequent discussions.  Grierson skips several numbers completely that are probably examples Bellinger erroneously listed as separate from nearby entries.  However, they are noted as such and will be left in place so all numbers are accounted for.

— Another table for contemporary imitations.  Since these were not official issues and will not likely fit well among them in the main table, they need to have their own table.  When top and bottom reverse ornaments differ in either table, the entry space is enlarged and both are shown.

— The legend for the color-coding used in the tables.

— A quote from Metcalf speculating on the existence of at least one provincial mint for these issues beyond just the mint of Constantinople striking them.

— Notes on Integrating the Bellinger and Grierson Tables

— Notes for Updates, Corrections and Variants Not Listed in the Original Tables

— Outstanding Issues (that need to be resolved)

— Sources for the Original Tables (Bibliography)

As the Grierson table was not meant to be the final say for this topic, neither is the table that I created.  It is intended to be an ongoing project as corrections may have to be made and it is definitely open-ended concerning future discoveries of new variants and unknown ornaments to known variants.  If you have any updates for it, please make a post to this thread or send me a Personal Message.  I hope to start addressing the "Outstanding Issues" in the very near future in this thread but I invite you to beat me to it in discussing them ;)

Thank You and Enjoy,

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Scotvs Capitis on February 06, 2007, 03:58:59 pm
Wow, that is a stunning resource, thank you VERY much!!!

Looking at it, I see my own class A2 has a variety not listed, closest to type 20

I have a single pellet in both reverse fields, two dots in the numbus and two dots on the book. Am I reading mine wrong?

(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12191/anaon_follis.jpg)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on February 07, 2007, 05:59:18 am
Thank you for the kind words Scott!

Your coin is indeed a new discovery.  I agree that it is closest to #20 so it has therefore been christened "F20a".  Thank you for posting it!

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on February 25, 2007, 12:55:31 pm
OK, here is the first outstanding issue:

Which is the proper reverse ornament for #10?:

Bellinger:  (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR10.gif)

Grierson:  (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR10DO.gif)

I'm thinking the lengths of the vertical lines aren't a critical detail and the difference between the two are just from the artistic interpretations of the authors.  I would go with the Grierson ornament and drop the question mark if this is the case.

The top ornament on a coin Byzantiumcoins showed me has lines of equal length while the bottom ornament looks a little more sloppy.  Does anyone have or know of other coins with this ornament?

Thanks,

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on March 24, 2007, 11:46:01 am
Here are the other outstanding issues, just in case they can be addressed first ;):

11:  Does Grierson correct Bellinger? - I suspect so as I've seen several of these reverse ornaments:  (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR11DO_.gif) but none of these (for sure):  (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR11.gif)

29:  Is the Bellinger reverse ornament actually correct versus Grierson? - Latter ((http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR29DO.gif)) just seems to be an incomplete version (perhaps from a badly-struck coin) of the former ((http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR29.gif)).

30:  May be just an artistic interpretation but which reverse ornament is more accurate? - (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR30.gif) or (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR30DO.gif)?

31 and 33a:  Is 33a the same as 31?  See discussion further up on this thread.

42:  Which "A" on the reverse ornament is the proper design? - (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR42.gif) or (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR42DO.gif)?

Thanks,

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on September 23, 2007, 11:55:48 am
I found a new variety online:

(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/S-1813-F17b.jpg)

Reverse:    (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassARF17b.gif)
Nimbus:    (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAN_B.gif)
Book:    (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAB_A.gif)

It has been named "F17b".  Full details are in the NumisWiki article.

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on September 23, 2007, 03:14:28 pm
Kevin,

I have seen this for the first time some months ago but I consider it as a varity of A2.21 -
It has 2 pellets on the book.
Byzantiumcoins


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on September 23, 2007, 03:34:40 pm
I found a new variety online:


the design at the top on the reverse looks more like  >  ! < (with a straight line, rather than an exclamation point!) , rather than  > K

It would make more sense for the symmetry also.

Hello Valerius,

The "K" on the top reverse ornament is just poorly engraved.  Oftentimes, the Byzantines weren't too particular about getting things perfect and/or symmetrical on their coins.

Kevin,

I have seen this for the first time some months ago but I consider it as a varity of A2.21 -
It has 2 pellets on the book.
Byzantiumcoins


Hello Wolfgang,

"F17a" has two pellets on the book too, or at least it seems so in the picture you gave me (which you labeled "S-1813-17-01var-K").  I attached a 2x zoom of the book below.  I believe the bottom of the top pellet is visible.  Did I see it wrong?  If so, then would a one-pellet "F17a" remain so while "F17b" should be "F21a"?

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on November 28, 2007, 06:32:41 am
Hello Kevin,

sorry for the late reply.

Of course I didn«t find this thread, usually I am only reading in the Byzantine Group !!

In fact my 17var has two pellets on the book, so it is absolutely justified to question my attribution.
I had placed it close to no. 17 because it shows a simple letter as the entire group 15 - 19 does.

I have given your coin to 21 because I didn«t consider the ornaments on it as a letter k,
but still more or less as a star which is only torn apart.
In fact, naming the 2 pellets I have used the wrong argument to place it there.

Kind regards
Wolfgang


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on November 28, 2007, 06:42:29 am
Again, the 2 coins for comparison plus a regular no. 21


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on November 28, 2007, 08:19:54 am
I have given your coin to 21 because I didn't consider the ornaments on it as a letter k,
but still more or less as a star which is only torn apart.

OK, that clarifies it for me :)  I can see the star scenario now.  I'll update the chart and rename it F21a.

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Katharosteriphos on December 26, 2007, 03:50:30 pm
Hi @ all!

I hope I'm asking this (basic) question in the right place....:
What is the difference between A2 and A3 Folles? I have read that it is the size, but what size exactly is that?  ???
Thank you,

-Kat


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on December 27, 2007, 12:33:30 am
There is no difference, at least none that makes any sense.
Byzntiumcoins


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Katharosteriphos on December 27, 2007, 07:33:54 am
Hi byzantiumcoins,

Yeah, that's what I thought as well.
But a few days ago when I was looking through the anonymous folles in the Forum catalog (prior sales) I found this note next to coin no.13437 (which is a anonymous follis class A2):

Some authorities do not distinguish between the A2 and A3 classes of Anonymous folles. They share the same design but the A3 coins are smaller. Perhaps they do not need to be classed separately but clearly the weight of the type was reduced at some point. This coin is closer to the weight of an A3 but the larger flan is closer to a typical A2.

The coins weight and size: 11.752g, 32.8mm

What do you think about that?   ???
best regards,

-Kat



Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on December 27, 2007, 07:55:49 am
Hi Kat,
in fact there are more than 2 groups of Anonymous Folles Class A2 which can be distinguished by different styles.
This is why I do not see any sense in splitting them up in 2 ( weight- ) groups -
I would either consider them as one group that was struck for quite a long period of time ( admitting that there may have been
metrological changes )
or rather divide them in about 7 groups, coming from different mints !!, as Metcalf has done in his important article in the Numismatic Chronicle 1970
byzantiumcoins


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Katharosteriphos on December 29, 2007, 05:30:06 am
Hi Byzantiumcoins,

Thank you for your answer.
Do you maybe know an online source for Metcalf's article?
The idea of splitting them um in 7 groups sounds good to me.

best regards from Vienna,
-Kat


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: byzantiumcoins on December 29, 2007, 07:42:03 am
Hi Byzantiumcoins,
do you maybe know an online source for Metcalf's article?
best regards from Vienna,
-Kat

Unfortunately no.
The article is in the 1970 Numismatic Chronicle and I do not think the Royal Numismatic Society
did publish anything in the net.
Kind regards
Byzantiumcoins



Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Abu Galyon on September 02, 2012, 05:01:35 pm
This topic has been dormant for years, but almost certainly there are still new varieties to be listed and catalogued, and I think this is one:

Weight: 12.45g
Diameter: 30mm

Nimbus:  (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAN_B.gif)
Book:   (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAN_E.gif) within a jewelled border
Reverse ornament:  (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR14a.gif)

My comments: The four-dot ornament is known as a nimbus pattern, but I’ve never seen it before as a decoration for the Gospel book. The reverse is close to Grierson’s type A2.14a. The font for the reverse inscription also seems similar to that used in the DOC A2.14a example (which is illustrated as a plate coin), so perhaps a product of the same mint. The letters appear to my eye somewhat smaller and more ‘rustic’ than the usual lettering found in this series.

Bill R.


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on September 03, 2012, 07:43:57 pm
Great find Bill!

:overlineIC: :overlineXC: is backwards too.  I wanted to place it in the #24s with the other crudes but couldn't find a logical fit.  The #22 area seems to be a candidate but it would break the listed progession of two dots on the Book.  Based on your comment on #14a's style, maybe F14c would be the best name and place for this new variety?

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Abu Galyon on September 04, 2012, 09:22:10 am
:overlineIC: :overlineXC: is backwards too.  I wanted to place it in the #24s with the other crudes but couldn't find a logical fit.  The #22 area seems to be a candidate but it would break the listed progession of two dots on the Book.  Based on your comment on #14a's style, maybe F14c would be the best name and place for this new variety?

Hi Kevin,

Yes, the retrograde  :reversedC: :Greek_Iota: (Is there any overscoring above these letters? Not obviously) in the right field is a significant feature of this coin. I meant to make that clear in my original post, but in transferring text from my word processor to the FORVM text editor, a paragraph accidentally got deleted.  Of course, it raises the serious possibility that this is a contemporary imitation rather than an official issue, but on the whole I’m inclined not to think so: the overall style of the coin is good, the weight and diameter are inside the normal range, the reverse inscription is correctly written, and the lettering (though somewhat crude) is probably within the bounds of acceptable variation.

When I wrote of similarities between the font on this coin and Grierson’s A2.14a I was thinking mainly of (i) the same form used for the letter A and (ii) a form of the letter S which usually extends below the line of the other letters and doesn’t level out horizontally at the bottom.

Where to place it in your list? Unless you go for the “contemporary imitation” category, I guess that F14c is as good a place as any. Grierson’s table is sort of sacrosanct, so we can’t change his existing numbering of varieties, but only add sub-types to cope with new evidence. And the exact taxonomy probably doesn’t matter as much as the fact that this particular ornament variation is recorded somewhere.  

Bill R.


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on September 17, 2012, 03:36:39 am
I added F14c to the table.  Bill, in whose collection is this coin for the sake of the chart's Notes section?  PM me if necessary.

Thanks,

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Abu Galyon on September 21, 2012, 08:46:04 am
Hi Kevin, 
The F14c coin in is my collection.

By the way (since you are updating your excellent list): while looking in the literature for other examples of F14c, I noticed that the 1977 Mardin Hoard pamphlet contains two ornament varieties not mentioned elsewhere:

(1)  Obverse with (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAN_C.gif) in nimbus and (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAB_I.gif) in Gospels; reverse decoration unrecognisable. The authors comment: “New variety or possibly a forgery, as dies are irregular and reverse inscription is faulty.”  The obverse (only) of this coin appears as plate 1.2 and shows what the ‘dies are irregular’ remark means – the Gospel book is aligned directly below the head of Christ instead of being offset to the right as usual, and Christ’s right hand appears to be below the book. Size 30mm and weight 8.78g;

(2) A new variant of type 47, with (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR35.gif) on the reverse. Size 25mm and weight 7.35g (plate 1.4).

Also described is an example of F42c (size 29.5mm and weight 6.99g; obverse illustrated as plate 1.3) with the added comment that another specimen can be found among the coins at the Barber Institute in Birmingham. 

Don’t be surprised by the low weights – Mardin hoard coins are without exception found in seriously worn condition. Reference:  The Mardin Hoard, by N.M. Lowick, S. Bendall, and P. D. Whitting, published A.H. Baldwin & Sons Ltd. London 1977, see pages 21, 56 and plate 1.

Bill R.


   


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Pep on October 23, 2012, 03:12:30 am
Hello Bill,

My apologies for the late reply.  I added the second coin as F47b.  As for the first, without the reverse ornament I'm hesitant to list it at this time.  It could be an existing entry?  Your notes for the coins were also added at the bottom.

Thanks,

Kevin  :)


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Abu Galyon on April 09, 2013, 12:09:48 pm
Hi everyone,

Here’s a recent acquisition of mine which doesn’t seem to be documented in Kevin’s Numiswiki table:
Size: 31 x 26mm.
Weight: 8.14g.

Obverse:  Nimbus  two pellets  and book also two pellets   (within jewelled border).
Reverse:  Ornamentation something like the little jpeg below.

Because of the weight I wouldn’t put it among the ‘metropolitan’ varieties, though the F24 category is looking already a bit overcrowded.

Bill R.




Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Quant.Geek on July 08, 2013, 09:57:30 am
Here is my recent acquisition which is of type Class A2, 32:

Weight: 9.2 g
Diameter: 31 mm

Obv: + EMMA NOVHΛ IC - XC.
Bust of Christ facing, holding book of gospels, with nimbus. Cross on book of gospels; cross in each arm of gospel.

Rev: + IhSYS/ XRISTYS/ bASILEY/ bASILE.
Legend in four lines.

Nimbus: (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAB_H_.gif)
Book: (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAB_H_.gif)
Reverse ornament: (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAB_H_.gif)

Cheers.

Sponge Bob


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: Joe Sermarini on July 08, 2013, 03:04:57 pm
You should put that one up in best of type.


Title: Class A Follis Reference
Post by: wileyc on February 20, 2014, 11:29:30 pm
Interested in a opinion of this coin. Particularly the pattern on the book of Gospels,it seems to be possibly five rows of five pellets, otherwise it would fit in the F24 variation.

9.16g 28mm

any thoughts

thanks

cw


Title: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: Abu Galyon on February 21, 2014, 05:59:04 am
cw:

It looks like F24c in Pep's Numiswiki ornamentation table.

Bill R.


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: Kevin P on February 01, 2018, 09:56:00 am
I'm new to FORVM and new to Byzantine coins (I've been collecting Greek and Roman for ~10 years).  I learned about the Anonymous Folles about 9 months ago and have become fascinated with them!  I started buying them and have enjoyed researching them as well.  The Numiswiki Class A Follis Ornaments table is wonderful, so I recently started identifying my coins by type.  Of course, this has resulted in me having a ton of questions - and also wondering about a few of my coins. 

I apologize in advance for the length of this post - I think I've pondered these things for too long  :)

QUESTIONS PART 1 - Class A2 vs. Class A3 vs. the 7 Categories in Metcalf
--  I love how Metcalf breaks up the Class A2/A3 into 7 Categories.  However, I only see some references mapping his 7 categories to the more commonly used A2 and A3.  Here is how I've mapped them (can someone please tell me if I got these right?):
             ==>  Metcalf's "Metropolitan" category is all CLASS A2
             ==>  Metcalf's "Central Greek" category is all CLASS A2
             ==>  Metcalf's "Blundered Inscription" category (types 25-28) are all CLASS A2
             ==>  Metcalf's #34 is CLASS A2
             ==>  Metcalf's "Secret Marks" category has 2 types - #31 is CLASS A2, #32 is CLASS A3
             ==>  Metcalf's next category (types 29 and 41-47) are all CLASS A3
             ==>  Metcalf's next category (types 24, 33, 39, 40) are mostly CLASS A3, with some 39 & 40 coins that are CLASS A2 (based on weight)
             ==>  Matcalf mentions type #51, but I don't know if this is A2 or A3.  My assumption is that his reference to #34 means it is CLASS A2?
--  I don't see type #35 mentioned anywhere by Metcalf.  Is this a separate category or should be part of one of the others?  Anyone know about the typical weight of those?
--  I think it would it be very helpful to add a column to Pep's table associating each type with Class A2 or A3 (where this is known)

QUESTIONS PART 2 - Class A1 vs. Types 2, 3, 4, and 20
--  I'm a purist, so when the rules say "no decoration" on the reverse is the rule to calling it Class A1, that's the rule.  However, I have seen a few coins that seem to have the weight, size, and styling of a class A1, but with a single dot on the top and/or bottom.  Those dots tell me it should be an A2 (large and heavy), but what if everything else screams A1?  Am I being too must of a purist here?  After all, Type 2 has all the markings of an A1 (no decoration on the reverse), but is listed with the "Central Greek" coins, which are large and heavy. 
--  The photos I've attached are of an example of this from my collection.  This coin weighs 6.24 grams and is 23 mm across - it looks just like a couple of my A1's, but has that dot on the top of the reverse, which aligns with type 4 or F20a (both "Central Greek" - or A2).  Can someone please explain?

**  My next questions are about some specific coins I think might be new types.  I'll put those in a different post.

Kevin


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: Kevin P on February 01, 2018, 10:21:59 am
Hey everyone - this is part 2 of my questions.  Now, I'll share some coins from my collection that look like they might be different types.  I'd like to get your thoughts.

Coin #1  (8.41 grams, 31.2 mm)

---  This coin is like type #47, but look closely at the rectangles in the nimbus on the obverse - the dots on the left side of each rectangle are both next to the rectangle (not connected) while the dots on the right side of each rectangle are located at the corners.   
--   Now, look at the rectangle at the bottom of the reverse.  In this case, all of the dots are next to the rectangle (not connected).



Coin #2  (3.01 grams, 26.6 mm)


--- This coin is similar to type #39, but is significantly more ornate than other coins I have seen of this type AND weighs a mere 3.0 grams (by far the lowest of all my Class As).

One more coin in the next post....


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: Kevin P on February 01, 2018, 10:25:40 am
Coin #3  (8.39 grams, 31.5 mm)

This last coin I'll list today looks very strange to me.  The inscription on the reverse looks crude, like a barbaric type.  Possibly a contemporary imitation?


Thanks for looking at these and helping me find some answers!

Kevin


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: Joe Sermarini on February 01, 2018, 12:55:37 pm
You should start over with new threads. One coin per thread.  Trying to talk about three coins in one thread is going to be a mess.


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: Kevin P on February 01, 2018, 01:36:08 pm
Thanks for the tip, Joe.  I'm new to this but definitely don't want to create a mess!

I figured that since they are all Class A folles and the first 2 were about the specific ornaments on the coins, I would make them part of this "master thread."

Kevin


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: Abu Galyon on February 02, 2018, 11:41:14 am
His Kevin and welcome.

I agree completely with Joe’s remark that we need separate threads to discuss your coins. Perhaps a moderator could help here?

 You should be aware that one not infrequently finds A2/3 coins which have lower weights either because they’ve been clipped or (more often) because they have been adapted and made smaller for use in jewellery. This can produce weights and diameters similar to A1. ‘No ornamentation’ is still the best distinguishing test in my view.

Bill R.


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: Kevin P on February 02, 2018, 08:09:13 pm
Thank you, Bill.  [By the way, love your Anonymous Follis Gallery - esp the nice Class E and F ones!]

Do you mean completely different threads in the main Byzantine Discussion Room - or different posts within this thread? 

If a moderator could help do that, I would appreciate it.  If not, I'll make that happen when I have time to recreate them early next week.

Kevin


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: cmcdon0923 on February 02, 2018, 09:58:07 pm
I agree with Bill. Class A1 means absolutely no ornamentation on the reverse, period. 

Classes A2 and A3 can be a bit more difficult to determine at times but A1 is pretty well delineated.


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: Joe Sermarini on February 09, 2018, 07:14:19 am
I just added a new variety to our Anonymous| Byzantine| |Class| |A| Folles| page.  This is a new |ornaments variety, unlisted by Bellinger and Grierson, with one pellet in each limb of the nimbus cross, two pellets vertically arranged within a jeweled border on the Gospels and the ornamentation shown below under the reverse inscription. The ornamentation above the inscription is off flan but most likely the same as below. We have designated this new variety |Grierson-NumisWiki| |ornaments| F1c.

(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/ClassAR09.gif)

(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins2/86497q00.jpg)

BZ86497. Bronze anonymous follis, |Anonymous| |follis| of Christ, |class| |A|3; SBCV 1818; |Grierson-NumisWiki |ornaments F1c, gVF, attractive bust of Christ, tight ragged flan, bumps and marks, edge chip, Constantinople (Istanbul, Turkey) mint, weight 8.514g, maximum diameter 27.9mm, die axis 270o, c. 1023 - 11 Nov 1028 A.D.; obverse + EMMANOVHL, facing bust of Christ, wearing nimbus cruciger, pallium, and colobium, holding gospels with both hands, IC - XC (Greek abbreviation for Jesus Christ) across field; reverse + IhSuS / XRISTuS / bASILEu / bASILE (Jesus Christ King of Kings), ornamentation above and below legend; unpublished variety; $300.00

See |Byzantine |Anonymous |Folles for |Sale in the |Forum |Ancient |Coins |shop. (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=858&pos=0#Anonymous%20Folles)


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: quadrans on August 12, 2018, 01:57:36 am
As I read this thread, I recognized, I have an interesting piece, contemporary imitation :

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-117094

B 059 Anonim Follis, SB ????, AE-Follis|, Class A2| (?), (Ancient (Barbar) Imitation),
(Class A2|, attributed to joint reign of Basil II and Constantine VIII.)
averse: +ЄMMΔ VOHΛI instead of +ЄMMA NOVHΛ, IC-XC, Bust of Christ facing, wearing nimbus cross with various |ornaments in each limb.. pallium and colobium, and holding books of Gospels.
reverse: +IhSyS / XRISTUS/ bASILEy/bASILE - in 4 lines, Greek legend, "Jesus Christ, King of Kings", all S are "revers" !!!
exergue: -/-//--, diameter: 24,5-26,6mm, weight: 9,04g, axis: 6h,
mint: Ancient (Barbar) Imitation., date: ??? A.D., ref: SB ???,

Look very similar the "F24a2 crude" but my coin is an imitation or barbaric produced ...

Regards

Q.


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: Warren on August 30, 2018, 07:57:41 pm
I wrote an educational web site on Byzantine anonymous folles and posted it today:

http://augustuscoins.com/ed/ByzAnon/ (http://augustuscoins.com/ed/ByzAnon/)

Take a look.
  --  Warren



Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: quadrans on August 30, 2018, 11:21:13 pm
Hi Warren,

Great site, Thank you,

Congratulation,  +++

Q.


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: Joe Sermarini on August 31, 2018, 09:28:55 am
Excellent article.  Nice class E. :)


Title: Re: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki
Post by: cmcdon0923 on August 31, 2018, 11:27:01 pm
Very nice site.....lots of good information !!