FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Roman Coins Discussion Forum => Topic started by: mwilson603 on October 31, 2011, 05:03:20 pm
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Being from North America, I always find it dissonant to refer to wheat ears as corn (to me corn is the same thing as maize) but I understand that the British term "corn" refers to all cereal crops.
News to me. I usually find that, in England certainly, people refer to corn as corn, wheat as wheat, rye as rye, oats as oats etc etc In fact, I find it quite strange that in North America you refer to corn as Maize, and yet have corn flour, corn bread, pop-corn, sweet corn etc etc. :P
regards
Mark
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Being from North America, I always find it dissonant to refer to wheat ears as corn (to me corn is the same thing as maize) but I understand that the British term "corn" refers to all cereal crops.
News to me. I usually find that, in England certainly, people refer to corn as corn, wheat as wheat, rye as rye, oats as oats etc etc In fact, I find it quite strange that in North America you refer to corn as Maize, and yet have corn flour, corn bread, pop-corn, sweet corn etc etc. :P
regards
Mark
Must be an old British term. Corn (or Maize) is a new world crop like potatoes. Romans didn't have corn...so a wheat ear is displayed
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Where's the best place to buy Reka Devnia report ?
Click on :arrowright: Reka Devnia :arrowleft:, bottom of the page ;)
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Where's the best place to buy Reka Devnia report ?
Click on :arrowright: Reka Devnia :arrowleft:, bottom of the page ;)
Awesome!
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I also live in North America and find it strange to read corn on coins 1000yrs befor Columbus discovered America. To Me corn or maze is the same thing on a cobb.
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I also live in North America and find it strange to read corn on coins 1000yrs befor Columbus discovered America. To Me corn or maze is the same thing on a cobb.
Many years ago I had the very same question: www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=12373.msg85630#msg85630
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Being from North America, I always find it dissonant to refer to wheat ears as corn (to me corn is the same thing as maize) but I understand that the British term "corn" refers to all cereal crops.
News to me. I usually find that, in England certainly, people refer to corn as corn, wheat as wheat, rye as rye, oats as oats etc etc In fact, I find it quite strange that in North America you refer to corn as Maize, and yet have corn flour, corn bread, pop-corn, sweet corn etc etc. :P
regards
Mark
Must be an old British term. Corn (or Maize) is a new world crop like potatoes. Romans didn't have corn...so a wheat ear is displayed
To quote Collins English Dictionary:
Corn (a) any of various cereal plants, esp the predominant crop of a region, such as wheat in England and oats in Scotland and Ireland, (b) the seeds of such plants, esp after harvesting (c) a single seed of such plants; a grain.
Many towns in England still have a Corn Exchange even though they are no longer used to market cereal crops.
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Thanks for that Peter. However, I would be very surprised to find many people in Britain today that refer to any cereal crop other than corn, as corn, in spite of the dictionary definition. As with most things, words and their meanings can change. I was trying to explain to Mix-Val that in Britain today, corn is called corn, and other crops are called by their correct name. Archaic meanings of words may have been originally used in older numismatic references, and that is probably where the original attribution description came from. However I would certainly not believe that if I used the word "corn" in everyday conversation in Britain, anyone would think I was talking about oats or barley :)
regards
Mark
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What is this female holding in her hands ?
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I would be very surprised to find many people in Britain today that refer to any cereal crop other than corn, as corn, in spite of the dictionary definition. As with most things, words and their meanings can change. I was trying to explain to Mix-Val that in Britain today, corn is called corn, and other crops are called by their correct name. Archaic meanings of words may have been originally used in older numismatic references, and that is probably where the original attribution description came from. However I would certainly not believe that if I used the word "corn" in everyday conversation in Britain, anyone would think I was talking about oats or barley.
However, what Americans call a wheat ear is still called a corn ear even in recent British numismatic publications, for example
Crawford (1974) 13/1, "behind, corn-ear"; Crawford 264/4b "above, two ears of corn crossed"; Crawford 427/2 "Ceres...holding...corn-ears in r. hand".
Carradice and Buttrey, new RIC II.1 (2007), Vesp. 939, "to r., corn-ear"; Titus 136, "to l. modius with corn ears"; Domit. 396, "Ceres, std. l., with corn ears and torch".
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Thanks for that Peter. However, I would be very surprised to find many people in Britain today that refer to any cereal crop other than corn, as corn, in spite of the dictionary definition. As with most things, words and their meanings can change. I was trying to explain to Mix-Val that in Britain today, corn is called corn, and other crops are called by their correct name. Archaic meanings of words may have been originally used in older numismatic references, and that is probably where the original attribution description came from. However I would certainly not believe that if I used the word "corn" in everyday conversation in Britain, anyone would think I was talking about oats or barley :)
regards
Mark
Mark, I would disagree. I have always understood 'corn' to be a generic term for different cereal crops, and I have been around for a good few years so I would not call it archaic (or perhaps I am!). You seem to imply that there is a cereal crop called 'corn'. There is no single cereal called 'corn' (except in american usage). Most people today are city-dwellers and so 'corn' wouldn't come up in conversation unless it was written on a box on a breakfast table. Since corn-flakes and the like are very popular, probably most people in fact think corn is maize. However, that doesn't replace the original use of the word.
Numismatic writers weren't botanists and I don't suppose die-makers were either. So it would have made sense (at the time anyway) to use a generic term to avoid being specific about what the plant was.
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Mark, I would disagree. I have always understood 'corn' to be a generic term for different cereal crops, and I have been around for a good few years so I would not call it archaic (or perhaps I am!). You seem to imply that there is a cereal crop called 'corn'. There is no single cereal called 'corn' (except in american usage). Most people today are city-dwellers and so 'corn' wouldn't come up in conversation unless it was written on a box on a breakfast table. Since corn-flakes and the like are very popular, probably most people in fact think corn is maize. However, that doesn't replace the original use of the word.
Numismatic writers weren't botanists and I don't suppose die-makers were either. So it would have made sense (at the time anyway) to use a generic term to avoid being specific about what the plant was.
Obviously off at a tangent with the original posting, but an interesting debate on usage of language nonetheless. I don't disagree with the final point at all, and I agree that the dictionary definition shows that the word can be used as a generic term. My point was to let Mix_Val know that actually most people I know refer to the correct type of cereal rather than use the word corn. In fact as a generic name, I would say that most people these days use the term "cereals" rather than "corn". If any one of the aforementioned city dwellers buys a corn-fed chicken for dinner, I'll bet they don't think "I wonder exactly what cereal this chicken has been raised on" :)
Curtis, I agree that recent publications use the term corn, however isn't that just a throw-back to previous publications, or because a precedence has already been set?
To be clear, I am not saying that corn is never used as a catch-all word for cereals in Britain. I was merely stating to Mix_Val that I never hear the word used as a generic word in normal conversation, only really in numismatic terms.
regards
Mark
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" Curtis, I agree that recent publications use the term corn, however isn't that just a throw-back to previous publications, or because a precedence has already been set? ".
Publications and/or catalogues sometimes use the specific term wheat ,or barley,but in general corn . IMO they could use the term cereal but it doesn"t sound to well to my ears. xxxx holding a bunch of cereals. Or Demeter with cereal wreath. ::)
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Curtis, I agree that recent publications use the term corn, however isn't that just a throw-back to previous publications, or because a precedence has already been set?
Mark,
If British people in general understood the term "corn ear" in the same way Americans do, then no British numismatists could continue to use that term in coin descriptions, no matter what their predecessors had done!
"A modius filled with corn ears" or "Ceres holding corn ears and torch" is a ridiculous error to an American ear, if in fact wheat ears not corn on the cob is meant.
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John Constable - The Cornfield (in German Das Kornfeld)
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Thanks Peter, but I don't think that a picture painted in 1826 disproves my proposal that the word "corn" is used to describe a particular cereal these days, and not used anywhere near as often as a generic term for all types of cereals?
Anyway, (again), this thread appears to have gone off track. I was merely trying to assist with a contemporary view of the usage of the word "corn" in today's Britain after Mix_Val stated "Being from North America, I always find it dissonant to refer to wheat ears as corn (to me corn is the same thing as maize) but I understand that the British term "corn" refers to all cereal crops.". To summarise, I was only trying to explain that evolution of language has meant that actually in my experience very few people in Britain now use the word "corn" as a general term for all cereal crops.
But let's agree to disagree on this one :)
regards
Mark
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Curtis, I agree that recent publications use the term corn, however isn't that just a throw-back to previous publications, or because a precedence has already been set?
Mark,
If British people in general understood the term "corn ear" in the same way Americans do, then no British numismatists could continue to use that term in coin descriptions, no matter what their predecessors had done!
"A modius filled with corn ears" or "Ceres holding corn ears and torch" is a ridiculous error to an American ear, if in fact wheat ears not corn on the cob is meant.
Corn as in cereal sounds fine from the english perspective of someone with a broad education. I've spent my entire life looking at pictures entitled "the corn-field", seeing Annona with corn, and reading about corn in many other contexts where it has obviously meant just cereal crops. I don't even give it a second thought. In literary, historical and artistic contexts I see the word "corn" and think of cereal crops. I'm not sure whether I actually thought much about it. It's only when triggered by numismatic questions today "isn't that wheat" that it provokes me to think.
In other modern contexts, specifically those where Maize could be a relevant answer, such as "corn-on-the-cob", then it is obvious it has another meaning. But only today. Not when I was younger. I grant that "Maize" is less commonly used today, and in discourses with those of more recent, or lesser education, corn today means what maize used to mean for me. But my mental view has not changed.
In my childhood I ate "corn-flakes" for breakfast. It had a picture of a yellow cereal crop on the box. I, truly, had no idea until perhaps I was 16 or 18 years old, that this was Maize nor that I had been eating Maize for breakfast all my life. Maize was something that one read about in history books as a crop of the Americas and something that was force-fed the Irish during the potato famine. I don't recall ever seeing Maize for sale as a child, perhaps except as tinned "sweet-corn" whatever that was. I wasn't eating Maize for breakfast. I was eating corn-flakes. Which I presumed were made of wheat or some such.
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What is this female holding in her hands ?
лимец - spelled - Triticum spelta
Rome, Mexico, Rome ???
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Wheat is still corn over here! Maize is 'maize' or 'sweet corn'.
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Next time I'm with a group of people I will ask each of them to define 'corn'. A sort of straw poll. :)
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I thought the topic interesting and deserving enough for it's own thread and so split it from the original thread.
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I could be way off base here but I found this interesting.
I noticed the term "cornucopiae" popped up in a description of a Nero sestertius.
Borrowing from Wikipedia, cornucopiae is a genus of grass in the Poaceae family.
Poaceae are often considered to be the most important of all plant families to human economies: it includes the staple food grains and cereal crops grown around the world, lawn and forage grasses, and bamboo, which is widely used for construction throughout east Asia and sub-Saharan Africa. Civilization was founded largely on the ability to domesticate cereal grass crops around the world.
The term "grass" is also applied to plants that are not members of the Poaceae lineage, including the rushes (Juncaceae) and sedges (Cyperaceae). This broad and general use of the word "grass" has led to plants of the Poaceae often being called "true grasses".
Below is the coin and description with a picture of some Poaceae grass which looks similar to a corn ear in some respects.
Nero. 54-68 AD. RIC I 494
Æ Sestertius (27.02 g, 7h). Lugdunum (Lyon) mint. Struck 66 AD.
Laureate head left, globe at point of bust; countermark: X with bar above, all in incuse square
Annona standing right, holding cornucopiae, facing Ceres seated left, holding grain-ears and torch; modius on garlanded altar between them; ship's stern behind.
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Just another British perspective on things. I do not associate the term corn directly with maize. I am familiar with the terms sweetcorn, which seems to generally mean the maize kernels and corn on the cob, which seems to generally mean shucked/hucked ear of maize. Sweetcorn was not generally grown as a crop in the UK until after WWII and due to the local climate is still generally only grown in the most souther areas of the country.
The term corn is ambiguous and it's use depends on context. A corn dolly is a harvest tradition across Europe, which has nothing to do with maize, is where the last sheaf of wheat or other grain product would be formed into an form of straw work that traditionally captured the spirit of the crop. When I hear corn I usually think of wheat but that is probably because it is the predominant crop where I come from though a grain of barley is still sometimes referred to as barleycorn. When I have seen it written in the numismatic references I have immediately associated the term with wheat and as such there has never been any confusion for me. Since many of these references are written in Europe the use of corn as a generic term for wheat, rye etc. for the generic seed head held on coins seems logical, at least to me and possibly many Europeans. I had never associated it with sweetcorn and the issue under discussion here had never even crossed my mind.
Martin
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As a non-native speaker I won't have much to contribute on the "corn" side, but I'll tackle this:
I noticed the term "cornucopiae" popped up in a description of a Nero sestertius.
Borrowing from Wikipedia, cornucopiae is a genus of grass in the Poaceae family.
In Roman terms, the cornucopia (you'll notice a link to numiswiki showing up automatically on this term) is a "horn of plenty", from the latin "cornu" meaning "horn", cf. French "corne", and "copia", meaning "multitude", "plenty", etc. cf. english "copious". No relation to "corn", whether wheat, maize, rye or any other vegetable food. From the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=corn): s.v. corn.
"grain," O.E. corn, from P.Gmc. *kurnam "small seed" (cf. O.Fris., O.S. korn "grain," M.Du. coren, Ger. Korn, O.N. korn, Goth. kaurn), from PIE base *gre-no- "grain" (cf. O.C.S. zruno "grain," L. granum "seed," Lith. žirnis "pea"). The sense of the O.E. word was "grain with the seed still in" (e.g. barleycorn) rather than a particular plant. Locally understood to denote the leading crop of a district. Restricted to corn on the cob in America (c.1600, originally Indian corn, but the adjective was dropped), usually wheat in England, oats in Scotland and Ireland, while korn means "rye" in parts of Germany. Maize was introduced to China by 1550, it thrived where rice did not grow well and was a significant factor in the 18th century population boom there. Cornflakes first recorded 1907. Corned beef so called for the "corns" or grains of salt with which it is preserved; from verb corn "to salt" (1560s).
So, what Annona is holding on this coin is the horn of the mythical goat Amalthea, which nurtured Zeus after he was hid as an infant so his daddy would not eat him.
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Here you have (antoninianus)infant Zeus riding Amalthea before she broke her horn. Was it the right or left one ?
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Remember though, the Romans aren't doing the modern day attributions for us, and it is clear that their use of the term "cornucopia" may be remarkably different than a modern definition which encompasses a broader spectrum
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I would imagine that the Poaceae grass is called 'cornucopia' because of it's horn-like shape. No connection to Roman iconography apart from that.
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Remember though, the Romans aren't doing the modern day attributions for us, and it is clear that their use of the term "cornucopia" may be remarkably different than a modern definition which encompasses a broader spectrum
My point exactly. The botanical name of the Poaceae grass is (part of) the broader and modern spectrum. As Peter points out, there is no ancient connection to the grass.
There is considerable evidence for a connection for the "horn of plenty" if the etymology does suffice. Pliny, in the natural history, preface 24. writes "κέρας Αμάλθειας, quod copiae cornu (volebant intellegi)", indicating clearly the relationship between the "horn of Amaltheia" and the term "Cornu Copiae"(although in the rather interesting context of a book with that title, but failing to deliver on the promise and being actually 'empty' of worthwhile content); Plautus in Pseudolus 671 writes "cornu copiaest ubi inest quidquid volo" ("it's a cornucopia, in which resides everything I desire"). You'll find lots of illustrations not only on coins, but also on larger imagery like frescoes showing the cornucopia, clearly as a horn filled and often overflowing with fruit or plants, in the hands of a number of deities connected, directly or indirectly, with plenty.
So, the definition of the "horn of the goat Amaltheia which provides for people's needs" is not only appropriate to Annona, it is also quite narrow as a spectrum.
In either case, it does not have anything to do with the original discussion of this thread...
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"κέρας Αμάλθειας, quod copiae cornu . It doesn"t stablish a relation between the horn of Amalthea and the cornucopiae. It states that the horn of Amalthea ("κέρας Αμάλθειας) is the cornucopiae . Quod copiae cornu. Which is the horn of abundance.
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Gosh Benito, I have enough trouble speaking English, stop confusing me....lol
I have a saying that my wife loves, "I'm a lot dumber in person" ;D
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Sorry for the confussion. Going to a coffee shop nearby to smoke and eat some grass. No horns there. ;D
Tomorrow some information on grass and the Romans.
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In Forum's catalog we say grain, heads of grain, wreath of grain, stalks of grain, etc. If I knew one grain from another, I would probably try to be more specific. We use American spelling too (most of the time). That is what is comfortable for me. If someone wants to call it corn or spell color with a letter U, I don't care.
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"κέρας Αμάλθειας, quod copiae cornu . It doesn"t stablish a relation between the horn of Amalthea and the cornucopiae. It states that the horn of Amalthea ("κέρας Αμάλθειας) is the cornucopiae . Quod copiae cornu. Which is the horn of abundance.
From what I remember from logic, equality is a type of relation (identity relation).
Though admittedly not of relationship as I wrote. ;D
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Ok, following the advice of asking a "straw" poll, I asked each of the 10 people in my office today what they believed was meant when the word "corn" was used. 3 of them stated maize initially, and it transpires that they all either currently or in the past have raised chickens. 1 had no idea at all, and made a remark about his mother always moaning about "her corns", and 6 talked about sweetcorn or cornflakes before 2 of them then mentioned maize. All of them thought that I must have been smoking some of the grass that Benito said he was going to eat for asking such a bizarre question.
Not exactly scientific, but no one said they thought "corn" meant any kind of grain. I would be interested in hearing what other polls uncovered.
(I did wonder that maybe it could be a regional understanding of the word, however I was raised in the south west of England, live now in the north of England now, and the office is based near London. The 10 people in the office included 1 person from Wales, 1 from Scotland, and the rest from mainly the south east of England. Also, for interest, within the group, the educational mix ranges from no significant education after dropping out with dyslexia, to one person claiming a phd in Computer Science.)
regards
Mark
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I was being a bit flippant in suggesting that a group of people could be asked for their definition of 'corn'. The word is not exactly one that would be used in every-day conversation. However, 'cornfield' is very much in use. Try googling the word. There is a bakery, a restaurant, a school, a care home using the name, and a seed supplier that sells cornfield seeds. There are paintings, other than Constable's with cornfield in the title.
Then there is the headline from a UK daily newspaper "Cocaine-addled driver destroys entire cornfield on run from police"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-464320/Cocaine-addled-driver-destroys-entire-cornfield-run-police.html
Below is an aerial picture of the said field, which is in the Netherlands. Quite amusing actually.
Or the British Museum site talking about a painting:
"Samuel Palmer, Cornfield by Moonlight, with the Evening Star, watercolour and gouache, with brown ink, varnished
This is one of the largest and finest 'moonlight' paintings from Palmer's time at Shoreham. It shows a man with a smock, broad hat and staff walking with his dog through a cornfield that has already been cut and stacked in sheaves."
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Hi,
Perhaps----corn is what grows in the corn field where the corn poppy grows. See pic below.
It is also what the Roman 'Corn' ships carried long before maize was discovered by the old world.
But perhaps the etymology of the word 'corn' would give an added clarification. In languages other than English. If someone with the necessary savvy may look it up. Also the name for 'maize', the new world corn (Indian corn according to the encyclopedia).
regards
cr
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The 'corn poppy' ('poppy' or 'field poppy' here in its native haunts) gets its name from the corn, not vice versa.
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Hi,
Perhaps----corn is what grows in the corn field where the corn poppy grows. See pic below.
It is also what the Roman 'Corn' ships carried long before maize was discovered by the old world.
But perhaps the etymology of the word 'corn' would give an added clarification. In languages other than English. If someone with the necessary savvy may look it up. Also the name for 'maize', the new world corn (Indian corn according to the encyclopedia).
regards
cr
Corn Poppy: a poppy Papaver rhoeas, that has bright red flowers and grows in cornfields. Since World War it has been the symbol of fallen soldiers.
Corn etymology: Old English corn; related to old Norse, Old High German corn, Gothic kaurn, Latin granum, Sanskrit jirna.
Maize comes from native American? Zea mays
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It's interesting to note what corn translates to in Italian:
s. (Agr) cereale; granaglie; grano, frumento; (scozz) avena; (am) granturco, frumentone, mais
v. (Gastr) conservare sotto sale, conservare in salamoia
I'd be curious to know what the descriptions on coins say in Italian or Spanish since they derive from latin. I think the only confussion is in the English.
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I think the confusion is in modern American English usage, where the word corn refers specifically to varieties of the New World cereal crop Zea mays. before that it was a general English term for any grain crop.
I wonder when and why corn in the American version of the language became less general.
Anyway it is almost senseless to argue the meanings of "common names". They vary so much geographically and temporally as to become useless when it comes to discussing specific organisms.
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I wonder when and why corn in the American version of the language became less general.
Interesting thought
Anyway it is almost senseless to argue the meanings of "common names". They vary so much geographically and temporally (sic.) as to become useless when it comes to discussing specific organisms.
Ah, but we haven't really been discussing common names. More the modern usage of an older English collective noun. :)
regards
Mark
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This is what Wikipedia says:
"The term "maize" derives from the Spanish form of the indigenous Taíno word maiz for the plant. This was the term used in the United Kingdom and Ireland, where it is now usually called "sweet corn", the most common form of the plant known to people there. Sweet corn is harvested earlier and eaten as a vegetable rather than a grain.
Outside the British Isles, another common term for maize is "corn". This was originally the English term for any cereal crop. In North America, its meaning has been restricted since the 19th century to maize, as it was shortened from "Indian corn". The term Indian corn now refers specifically to multi-colored "field corn" (flint corn) cultivars."
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@ Robert Brenchley. Hi Robert; of course it is as you said, and not vice-versa.
As for the etymology of the word, I had also in mind the Semitic languages.
Qamh (or Kamh) = corn (any connection, other than referring to the same thing?). Qamh is a generic name for all the wheats.
The word turns up in a number of place-names with special relation to corn. See 'Menia el qamh' ; 'Abil el qamh', plus others.
rgds
cr
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There could easily be a connection between the two words. The word originates from proto-Indo-European, and that offers scope for all sorts of developments in various directions.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=corn
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I live in Maine USA we grow two types of corn cow corn for feed and sweet corn to eat. So to me when you say corn ears I think corn either type. Today In the US you could say ethinol and I would think of corn, because so much is made from corn. But that is my opinion. Europeans have know about corn since the 1400s so it is not to hard to see how they may confuse the two when they did not grow the crop.