FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Roman Coins Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Matthew W2 on December 08, 2009, 01:36:37 am
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Hello all,
I've read in RIC VII and a recent article by Antvwala that Trier produced these mules, and they are dated to about 332 AD.
In RIC it's listed as r5.
Do these mules have the two standards reverse, or one standard?
Does anyone have any pictures of one of these with two standards?
From what I understand, the mules were (elsewhere) produced after 335, so all have the one standard reverse, which was also not used in Trier
before 335, so the mules produced there then should have two standards - but do they?
(just intensely curious)
thanks!
matt
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Hello!
Indeed the RIC describes this coin, but I have not ever seen, even in photography. Its existence is absurd. I believe that this was an error in coupling of the two dies and probably the Gloria Exercitvs has two standards.
Antvwala
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Hi,
All of these are irregular copies - I have seen many and mules occur every which way, VRBS ROMA with victory reverse and GLORIA reverses (both 1 and 2 standard), Constantinian dynasty with wolf and twins etc etc. None are from official Trier dies or at least I have never seen one...
Regards,
Adrianus
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Hi,
All of these are irregular copies - I have seen many and mules occur every which way, VRBS ROMA with victory reverse and GLORIA reverses (both 1 and 2 standard), Constantinian dynasty with wolf and twins etc etc. None are from official Trier dies or at least I have never seen one...
Regards,
Adrianus
Thank you for the response! - You also confirmed my suspicion of a 1-standard coin with Urbs obverse that I bought recently. The obverse looked a little unofficial, but I wasn't 100% certain (I'll hopefully get motivated to post pictures of it soon).
I have a soft spot for these unofficial mules - they are very interesting!
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I would say that the coins Vrbs Roma / Gloria Exercitvs with a standard minted in Constantinople, Thessalonicas and Eraclea are regular voins and that they were minted after the death of Constantine I. For these three mints, are also equivalent Constantinopolis / Gloria Exercitvs.
I think with those two standards, especially those of Arles cited by Ric, are mules: they are all very rare.
Antvwala
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I would say that the coins Vrbs Roma / Gloria Exercitvs with a standard minted in Constantinople, Thessalonicas and Eraclea are regular voins and that they were minted after the death of Constantine I. For these three mints, are also equivalent Constantinopolis / Gloria Exercitvs.
I think with those two standards, especially those of Arles cited by Ric, are mules: they are all very rare.
Antvwala
Thank you for the responses as well!
Are they also unofficial from Nicomedia? I've heard Nicomedia included as one of the (four) Propontic mints that produced these as official coins, but I've only heard the assertion that the coins from these mints are thought to be official (whether Nicomedia is included or not), not an explanation.
I believe I saw one with single standard from Alexandria as well, which I am not sure looked unofficial, but I haven't been able to find the picture again (I might have saved it- I hope - so I can hopefully find it).
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I know this coins:
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Hi,
The one standard types from certain Eastern mints are regular issues. No official mint anywhere intentionally produced two standard types with VRBS ROMA obverses - nor are those coins that do turn up official mules. They are irregular issues that can be differentiated on grounds of size and style. Official mints in this period do not produce mules - the systems that were clearly in place wer too organised to permit it.
Regards,
Adrianus
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The one standard types from certain Eastern mints are regular issues. No official mint anywhere intentionally produced two standard types with VRBS ROMA obverses - nor are those coins that do turn up official mules. They are irregular issues that can be differentiated on grounds of size and style.
Yes, I thnk same. Antvwala
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Hi,
The one standard types from certain Eastern mints are regular issues. No official mint anywhere intentionally produced two standard types with VRBS ROMA obverses - nor are those coins that do turn up official mules. They are irregular issues that can be differentiated on grounds of size and style. Official mints in this period do not produce mules - the systems that were clearly in place wer too organised to permit it.
Regards,
Adrianus
Thank you again for the response - I completely believe you. The lingering question I have has to do with which mints are the certain Eastern mints that produced the one standard types as official coins.
I've heard it claimed (based I think on Failmezger and Vagi, though I am not sure if they are the original sources - maybe they summarized from RIC VII?) that the 4 Propontic mints are the ones that produced the 1 standard mules as official coins.
I think Antwala's response caught me by surprise, since he listed Constantinople, Thessalonica, and Heraclea, not the four I expected based on these prior claims (Constantinople, Heraclea, Cyzicus, Nicomedia).
If either of you could clarify or elaborate I would very much appreciate it!
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Another quick update - I found the coin supposedly from Alexandria that I remembered...
Sadly, my memory is not terribly accurate, but the coin's attribution also appears to be problematic.
The coin is a Constantinopolis mule, not an Urbs (which I gather may not matter, since the gloria mules were officially produced for both types only at the same mints?)
But, the given attribution as RIC VII 71 Alexandria appears incorrect (I just checked, and that number is listed with victory reverse, not gloria).
Also, if this is Alexandria, isn't the officina letter missing? The mintmark to me looks more like SMHE, though the last letter in particular is not terribly clear). Can SMAL be correct for this coin?
The coin and attribution as it appeared online (seller omitted) is here:
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25239/normal_Cons_Gloria.jpg)
I definitely should have looked for this before posting about it though!
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This coin seems of Heraclea mint. Antvwala
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Yes, it is Heraclea. There are five mints producing the official Vrbs Roma/Gloria 1 standard issues - Constantinople, Heraclea, Kyzicus, Nicomedia and Thessalonica.
Regards,
Adrianus
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Thank you both very much for the clarifications!