FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board

Resources => Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions => Topic started by: Ghengis Jon on May 05, 2009, 05:34:18 am



Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on May 05, 2009, 05:34:18 am
For some reason, this coin struck me as funny, so I thought I'd share.   We had a very educational thread on coins with dimples, so why not tooling?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: casata137ec on May 05, 2009, 06:22:31 am
I kinda like his 70's porn star mustache! lol

Chris


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on May 08, 2009, 08:50:22 am
The seller acknowledged the tooling on this one, earning him honesty points.`


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Jay GT4 on May 08, 2009, 05:25:48 pm
The seller acknowledged the tooling on this one, earning him honesty points.`

That one's not so bad!  There are some real pathetic ones out there.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: xintaris75 on May 09, 2009, 02:09:54 pm
I also have one "beautiful" example of tooling...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on May 10, 2009, 06:42:08 am
I also have one "beautiful" example of tooling...

Could those be two nearly identical cast fakes?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: xintaris75 on May 10, 2009, 07:07:01 am
I also have one "beautiful" example of tooling...

Could those be two nearly identical cast fakes?

Yes, i was puzzled with this coin too. This part of scratch looks really strange. But a wear looks good, and exist and another examples from this obv. die at close condition, which seems undoubtly struck.
So, i think it's mostly crazy tooling, not forgery. IMHO.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: ecoli on May 11, 2009, 05:37:08 pm
seems like a cracked die?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: xintaris75 on May 11, 2009, 06:43:14 pm
seems like a cracked die?
Agree with you. Cracked and repaired. This scratch can be welding seam at die, curl engraved after repairing.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on May 12, 2009, 05:37:36 am
Hair style by Dremel...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on May 12, 2009, 12:58:23 pm
Someone's had a go at the inscriptions as well.


Title: Re: Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on May 21, 2009, 09:56:01 am
Another hair style makeover...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on May 21, 2009, 02:08:56 pm
That was once a nice coin, if the reverse is as good.


Title: Re: Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on June 08, 2009, 06:25:47 am
Couple more examples.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: ecoli on June 08, 2009, 02:10:28 pm
that oddly goes well with your profile picture :)


Title: Re: Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on June 15, 2009, 05:39:57 am
Smoothing gone wild


Title: Re: Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Noah on June 19, 2009, 06:49:34 pm
Another hair style makeover...


That one looks like a nice hairpiece! Anyway, I have seen another form of "tooling" that might be a new way to scam customers.  I purchased a Claudius coin that was "tooled" electronically.  What I mean by this is that the coin was enhanced via computer software to fool the customer.  I bid on it on ebay thinking is was more detailed and nicer than it actually was.  The coin turned out to be worn with less detail.  I was pleased and upset at the same time.  I was pleased that the coin was authentic, but upset that I overpaid for it.  I did not spend much, but definitely a little more than the coin was worth.  Has anyone else seen such a phenomenon?

Best, Noah


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on June 21, 2009, 12:30:54 pm
Yes, I remember one general dealer a few years ago with a lot of coins to sell who turned them all green, even the silvers. The coins themselves were OK.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Noah on June 22, 2009, 12:05:33 pm
I can see a dealer messing up the color or sharpness of a coin through shoddy photography.  This was deliberate enhancing of the details on the coins.  He somehow made the legends sharper and look raised when they were practically gone altogether.  In fact the legends were for that type of coin, but seem to have been "lifted" digitally from another coin and put on that photo to make it look better.  He touched up the portrait and reverse figures as well.  The photo was a bit grainy, so I chalked it up to poor photography/bad lighting, but, in fact, it was so poor because he doctored the heck out of it.

Best, Noah


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: ecoli on June 22, 2009, 01:27:56 pm
can you post the picture?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Noah on June 22, 2009, 08:27:29 pm
Stange, I left a long post responding to your question ecoli, but it just vanished within the past couple of hours.  Anyway, here it is again.  I can't post a pic because I no longer own the coin and did not save the dealer pic when I bought it.  I got it via auction and was in the habit of taking my own pics with my digital camera at the time.  Not long after I received the coin, the dealer pic was taken off of the auction site.  I wish I had kept it, but I did not.  I did not want the coin anymore, so I sold it cheaply to a friend who just wanted to own an ancient coin.  I then proceeded to buy another Claudius coin (the one in the link below which is in my gallery here at FORVM).  I have not seen such a "doctoring" of coins since except for the coloring difference in certain dealer/individuals' auction photos due to poor photography. 

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-33740

Best, Noah

 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on June 24, 2009, 05:40:59 am
Smoothed with a fresh coat of paint.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: moonmoth on June 24, 2009, 11:45:25 am
Paint!  I hate it, it is so messy to remove.  I have found it on several coins that havem't been smoothed at all, just crudely stripped, with the thick paint filling in the holes in the porous surface.

Bill


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Optimo Principi on June 25, 2009, 06:39:30 am
As a relatively new collector I'd like to know what are the main tell-tale signs of tooling? Obviously some of these examples have blatantly been interefered with, but that Hadrian sestertius on the previous page would have fooled me. :/


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on June 25, 2009, 06:53:02 am
You just have to look at a lot of genuine coins to develop an eye for it.
That's pretty much the same answer you'd get if you asked how to spot fakes.

Usually with tooling the wear pattern is not correct.
That means that the high points are not (or don't appear) as worn as they should be.

What's usually tooled are the laurel wreath, where individual leaves are no longer distinguishable,
the hair and folds in the garment.  The result is often a great contrast of amazingly preserved detail (which has been tooled in) and an otherwise pretty worn coin. These details are the first that are worn down.

Plus the tooled parts just look unnatural. It's not always easy to spot and takes a while.
If you suspect tooling, just compare with other (untooled) examples on Coinarchives.

Usually after tooling the tooled parts (or the whole coin) are repatinated, because tooling is basically scratching the coin
and scratches are easily visible. So that's another thing to look for.


Andreas


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Optimo Principi on June 25, 2009, 07:05:21 am
Very useful, thanks Andreas. The logic that a coin's raised features will naturally be the first to ware is easy to forget when excited by a coin's level of detail. Will now cast a suspect eye over such coins in future.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: agord on June 26, 2009, 02:34:53 pm
Anyone care to venture an opinion as to what this coin was before the rework? 28-30 mm 20.86 gms


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Will Hooton on June 26, 2009, 02:39:14 pm
Marcus Aurelius? Been retooled to look like a Vitellius. Very poor effort!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: ecoli on June 26, 2009, 02:44:30 pm
or commodus or A. Pius



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Noah on June 26, 2009, 09:33:48 pm
AVRELIVS is visible on the obverse and that is definitely a young, curly-haired portrait of the emperor.  Furthermore, it looks like a Spes advancing left reverse, but I can't make out the legends except for COS III.  Badly tooled...yes unfortunately.

Best, Noah


Title: Re: Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on June 28, 2009, 08:38:38 am
A couple more that have been worked on/over.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Noah on June 28, 2009, 11:24:43 am
The Faustina is quite obvious, but the Galba is either "good" tooling or it was done some time ago and has worn down. 

Best, Noah


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on June 28, 2009, 11:32:08 am
Like Noah, I see no tooling on the Galba As, perhaps slight old smoothing in the fields.


Title: Re: Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 02, 2009, 06:43:58 am
More field work than a bean farm.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 08, 2009, 08:57:30 am
This is from a thread in the fake area, but I had to post it here because of the tooling performed with reckless abandon.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on July 08, 2009, 02:23:25 pm
That's an absolute classic.


Title: Re: Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 13, 2009, 11:06:10 am
All three have been listed by the sellers as tooled and/or smoothed.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: FORVM AUCTIONS on July 13, 2009, 11:51:42 am
The Galba looks untouched to me too.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 13, 2009, 12:05:13 pm
The Galba in post 39 was advertised as having 'slight smoothing' by the seller.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on July 13, 2009, 01:54:38 pm
Yes, I think I can see the marks of smoothing in the fields. But I don't think it's any more than that.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 20, 2009, 06:15:11 am
3 more advertised as having 'light smoothing'.
 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on July 20, 2009, 02:59:00 pm
On the first two you can see lighter areas in the fields where the smoother has been at work. The third is a better job; I wouldn't spot it from a pic.


Title: Re:Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 26, 2009, 04:08:38 pm
This is a great educational coin here.  The person doing the field smoothing was doing a fabulous job, but evidently decided to quit halfway through.  Because of this, its fairly easy to see the smoothing.  Appears that a small bit rotary tool of some sort was used, looking at the uneven 'trails'.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: rick fox on July 26, 2009, 06:10:16 pm
aaaagggghhhhh!

WHY?  For the love of god do idiots continue on doing this?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: awl on July 26, 2009, 06:22:45 pm
aaaagggghhhhh!

WHY?  For the love of god do idiots continue on doing this?

Because "idiots" keep buying them unfortunately.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 03, 2009, 05:36:25 am
<Previous image and comments removed.>

The coin below is advertised as having been smoothed.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 03, 2009, 05:39:31 am
This one also is advertised as having been smoothed.  I don't see the point in this one.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 03, 2009, 05:40:49 am
And last for the day, one that the seller says has been tooled (not smoothed).



Title: Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 10, 2009, 07:51:03 am
Advertised as "... lightly tooled ..."


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Brian L on August 10, 2009, 03:03:26 pm
Thank for this post,
With the pictures being posted,
I am finally seeing what is meant by smoothed,tooled etc.
I hope this keeps going!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 31, 2009, 11:58:14 am
The first couple of examples (hence the title) were about tooling.  My purpose for the thread, however, is primarily educational to show/learn about tooling (when available) and smoothing (seemingly always available).

Power through knowledge.


Title: Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on October 07, 2009, 05:04:10 am
This one reminds me of the awful "helmet hair" styles from the 1980's. 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: quisquam on October 07, 2009, 08:18:25 am
I can't see anything wrong with this Constans.

Stefan


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on October 07, 2009, 09:46:28 am
Neither do I.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on October 07, 2009, 11:02:03 am
Just looking at the tooling aspect - no comment on the smoothing.  The hair on the bust, the highest point of relief, apparently has the least amount of wear.  If you compare the face/hair to the rest of coin's condition, there is a radical difference in  consistancy.  Playing with coins in my slug box, I have achieved identical results by carefully enhancing the hair through use of a steel straight pin, buff the bust with a soft brass dremel brush and then repatinate with Dellar's.  (I've used a Victrola needle for this purpose.)  There's no doubt in my mind that this obverse has been worked.

And no, I don't sell any coins I've worked, I give those away.  To kids, as fundraiser donations, as swag for geo-caching, etc.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on October 07, 2009, 11:20:00 am
I see some wear on the highest point (the diadem), little wear anywhere else.
I'm sure I've seen this kind of strange hair before and that it's just sloppy engraving
and quite normal. The legend and lower part of the bust do not show a high amount of wear in my opinion
but rather a less than perfect strike.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on October 07, 2009, 11:37:58 am
I agree with Stefan and Andreas in seeing no tooling. I think the dies were worn, which explains the lack of sharpness of the legends on both sides.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Optimo Principi on October 09, 2009, 06:38:51 am
Thanks for all the examples guys, really helping me learn about Tooling/smoothing and how to spot it.

This might be a silly question but...do people ever tool or smooth silver coins? Or is that not done? Just that all the examples shown are bronzes.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on October 09, 2009, 07:00:09 am
It's really hard to do it with silver and it's more noticeable.
It is more often done with gold, there are some seller (known dealers among them) who 'repair'
cracks, test cuts etc. and after polishing it's hard to spot. This is usually only spotted, because these records
are online. Of course if you restrict access to this data to dealers...  ::)


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on October 09, 2009, 11:02:22 am
Seller reports significant tooling on obverse.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on April 07, 2010, 10:21:25 am
Lip gloss, eye liner, and mascara.  :)



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on April 09, 2010, 12:49:48 pm
These probably can't be labelled "Badly Tooled", but the seller reports all 4 examples have been tooled.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Laetitia on April 19, 2010, 08:56:41 am
This is currently for sale on a certain auction site.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Marcantica on April 19, 2010, 09:52:10 am
More and more such badly tooled large bronzes (Sestertii, Dupondii and Asses) can be found in European coin shows.
Most of these dealers come from Ex-Yugoslavia but live in Western Europe and bring these badly tooled and repatinated bronzes to sell them here.
Be aware of large amount of these large bronzes all with the same patinas, very nice obverses, although the reverse is sometimes difficult to make out; almost caricatural portraits and substantial price reductions from the dealer, without being asked to give any reduction!
These dealers also sell archaeological objects, also tooled, mixed with a lot of fake artefacts and coins (mostly denarii and sometimes Roman gold too)!
Best regards and be aware!
Marc,
Marcantica


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Optimo Principi on May 04, 2010, 12:46:02 pm
A "Lightly Tooled" gem currently for sale from SJB Coins. Poor Hadrian, he doesn't deserve this..


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 07, 2010, 06:49:41 am
Bust's hair and the reverse.



Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 15, 2010, 05:14:09 am
Ugh.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: goldenancients on August 07, 2010, 09:54:38 am
So whatcha think? Stunning artistry, no? I've got a proverbial dollar for anyone who can identify it too.  ;)
It was really easy, until I dropped it yesterday and the side broke off with the emperor's name.  Oops!

Oh well. 
Danny


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: goldenancients on August 10, 2010, 05:05:34 am
Ok... here's a hint:

Ingredients:
1. Copper penny
2. Dremel with diamond bits
3. Black permanent marker
4. Candle
5. Too much time


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: rover1.3 on August 10, 2010, 05:08:17 am
Excuse me..You mean you made this? Congratulations!!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: goldenancients on August 10, 2010, 06:39:18 am
It's not exactly a work of art. I don't think Abraham Lincoln would be very proud. I drew the outline of the picture onto the penny with a felt tip pen and then etched it out with a fine point bit. Then I carved everything away that didn't look like the Constans portrait I was trying to copy. For the reverse, I thought I'd do something different, so I made a rider on a horse, but soon tired of my project because I kept sneezing with all the metal dust flying up in my face.

For those of you wondering, No... I do not, nor have I ever tooled a coin. This was just an experiment to see what I could do with a penny and a dremel tool. The problem is there is just not enough metal thickness in a modern coin to make an ancient "hobo nickel" with the proper relief. I carved too deep, and when it accidentally dropped on the floor, the inscription broke off of one side.

My adventure in fakery had to include a fake patina, so I started by using a black permanent marker to "paint" the coin. This was too obvious, so I distressed the coin by rubbing between two other modern coins. This gave the look of wear, but the highlights were too bright. I held the coin above a candle high enough to not burn the coin, but collect the black soot. The carbon from the candle soot is just enough, after wiping it with a rag, to tone down the shiny metal and make the marker look more like patina and less like ink.

I didn't set out to produce a fake coin that could fool anyone, just to see how difficult it would be to carve one, like the ancient die engravers. All told, it took about an hour to produce this coin. I wonder, with no power tools, how long it took to engrave a die - to much better standards than this.

Regards,
Danny


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on August 10, 2010, 07:08:01 am
There's someone on the German forum that engraves dies. He hasn't been at it long and he can already produce some good dies. And just like a Lipanoff they might not fool any serious collector but suitably worn they are surprisingly good and would certainly fool inexperienced collectors.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 16, 2010, 10:10:52 am
Geez Danny, are you fishing for a job at Sadigh Galleries or something?  ;D


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: goldenancients on August 16, 2010, 11:23:09 am
Geez Danny, are you fishing for a job at Sadigh Galleries or something?  ;D

Nah... I hear they're not hiring after some bad publicity on eBay. ;D

There may be some job opportunities in Bulgaria or Toronto though. No... you're right. It's more on the level of "Sadigh" quality.

I ought to post it on eBay:
Extremely rare (r5: unique) copper Romanesque penny.
Obverse: Sadighus Augustus
Sweatband, curiassed bust right.
Reverse: John Wayne on horse, galloping left.
ATHENS in exergue. (Bangkok mint. First officina)
19.5mm 1.98gm VF

I'm sure it would sell.  ::)


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: goldenancients on August 18, 2010, 09:28:47 am
I tried to make a high relief but ended up carving too deep into the penny. It's very, very thin in some places.  That's why one edge broke off.  (Diameter is actually 17.5mm, not 19.5mm... not that it really matters.)


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 24, 2010, 06:03:45 am
27mm, 14.9 grams, a most interesting reverse.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on August 24, 2010, 08:40:04 am
27mm, 14.9 grams, a most interesting reverse.



Looks like the world's first rolling golf club bag ;)

I see he's got one of those animal covers for his driver, too.

I understand he uses "Orbis 1" golf balls.

mz


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 30, 2010, 08:51:04 am
Andy P doesn't deserve this fate...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Arminius on August 30, 2010, 09:10:38 am
It´s a pity when a noble portrait is changed to a caricature.

Antoninus Caricaturicus  >:(


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on August 31, 2010, 02:34:54 am
Sold by our good friend David Suter, back as julius-nepos.




Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on September 02, 2010, 07:21:29 am
Hadrian sestertius, obverse tooled and smoothed. 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: mwilson603 on September 02, 2010, 03:56:56 pm
Hadrian sestertius, obverse tooled and smoothed. 
First, please let me make it clear that I don't approve of tooling in any way, and I weep for the coin and associated history that will have been destroyed by the toolers actions.  However this one is certainly more sympathetically tooled than most I have seen.  I would go as far as to say that whoever tooled this actually has quite a nice touch!
regards
Mark


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on September 02, 2010, 04:31:01 pm
...I would go as far as to say that whoever tooled this actually has quite a nice touch!
regards
Mark

Unfortunately this person seems to be making a career of tooling large Roman bronze.  I have seen a few dozen examples that I am confident are from this same hand. 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: maridvnvm on September 07, 2010, 11:43:00 am
How about and URBS ROMA medallion...

Martin


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on September 13, 2010, 05:10:33 am
Sept Severus and Trajan.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on September 14, 2010, 10:46:13 am
Just stumbled across this one this morning on eBay. The seller had many more but now they have been pulled, even from the completed listings page.

Too bad, because they were entertaining, to say the least! ;)

EDIT: Popped up in the completed listings area.

EDIT: eBay seller is on the NFSL: sylvester.ekaterina

EDIT: Sold for $143 USD.

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on September 14, 2010, 11:26:11 am
There doesn't seem to be anything at all original on the last one.  It is probably carved on a slug.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on September 14, 2010, 03:29:17 pm
Here's another from the same (eBay) seller.

EDIT: eBay seller is on the NFSL: sylvester.ekaterina

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on September 14, 2010, 05:36:02 pm
How about and URBS ROMA medallion...

Martin

I have to admit, I really like the slack-jawed, mouth-breathing Roma depicted here  :P

The multitude of square teets on the she-wolf (or whatever that is supposed to be) is attractive, too  :P

mz



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on September 14, 2010, 07:18:16 pm
This is not a coin but it is definitely funny!

Same seller: sylvester.ekaterina

Description:

ORGINAL ROMAN bone head

PERIODE :100AD

LONG: 1,9CM

ORGINAL FIND CONDITION .

WHEN THE AUCTION HIGHER THEN 50,00 EURO ,THEN ONLY BE REGISTRATED SENDING !!!!

I WILL SHIPP WORLDWIDE


mz

p.s. this guy is a goldmine.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on September 14, 2010, 07:25:52 pm
One more from the same seller, this time a completed listing:

Check out the "cop-stache" on Trajan  :P

You know, it just occurred to me why all the reverse images seem to be wearing what appear to be clogs: the seller is in the Netherlands! ;D

mz


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on September 22, 2010, 05:48:39 am
Agrippa




Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: slokind on September 22, 2010, 02:38:41 pm
That bemused wolf is one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time.
Pat L.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on October 04, 2010, 05:17:57 am
Agrippina Senior, seller described as tooled and smoothed.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Dino on October 04, 2010, 06:20:54 am
Question:  Is it safe to assume that if it's tooled that it's also repatinated?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on October 08, 2010, 06:16:19 am
I wouldn't go that far.   Sometimes its just touched up with a darkener like Dellars or Jax on the tooled area.

Once, long ago, I bought a lot of 50 uncleaneds to idle away some winter hours.  As I recall, there was nothing remarkable about the lot, except for what I presumed to be 'throw in' by the seller.  The coin was heavily worn, not quite a slug.  Whomever tooled it harshly with a dremel like instrument and then spray painted it flat black.  It caused me concern, thinking what other crap would I find seeded in the batch.  I innocently asked the seller about the coin and he quite proudly said he added it to the lot as a 'sweetner' to insure I was happy with the coins.  I don't think he did the deed, but obviously he had no clue about ancient coins.

I digress.  Sometimes a coin is completely repatinated and can be difficult to tell unless its in hand when it becomes apparent.  Thats especially annoying to me if it isn't disclosed at the time of sale.  I had bought a beautiful Gallienus for my zoo and what I thought was a flan flaw turned out to be a Jax droplet.  I was furious (a good portion at myself for being duped) and almost returned the coin.  Luckily there had only been some field smoothing and no tooling.  I took a dremel and a rough/soft buffing attachment to remove the blob.  When I buffed down the rest of the reverse with a finisher, I pleasantly found I had a tiger instead of a panther, which explained the odd obverse legend.   Found a panther, expected a mule, got a tigress.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Galaxy on October 08, 2010, 06:56:47 am
Since tooling scrapes away the surfaces of the metal itself (when you only scrape the patina it is considered smoothing) , it is thus impossible to have a tooled coin with a patina unless it is artificially applied. To me, oftentimes the patinas of tooled coins are more evident/obvious than the tooling itself.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Galaxy on October 08, 2010, 06:58:40 am
And yes : Dellers, over the entire surface of a coin or a large area, is ALSO repatination. Some people think Dellers is a magical substance (and used sparingly it probably is) but it is still repatination.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on October 09, 2010, 10:13:26 am
Sometimes it's literally paint they use.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Galaxy on October 09, 2010, 10:33:12 am
The most grevious example I have seen used black shoe polish, both to color the surfaces of the coin and to 'fill' the pits. The finished product was then waxed. It looked as horrible as you can probably imagine, but ...well, there's still a market for those sorts of things, too, if some of prices these monstrosities sell for on e*ay are any indication.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: maridvnvm on October 11, 2010, 03:17:54 am
YUCK!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on October 11, 2010, 04:40:46 am
There's a small German auction house that just gave out a catalog with many coins like that one.

(http://www.felzmann.de/customer/images/catalogs/131/images/full/8099.jpg)

(http://www.felzmann.de/customer/images/catalogs/131/images/full/8109.jpg)

(http://www.felzmann.de/customer/images/catalogs/131/images/full/8076.jpg)

(http://www.felzmann.de/customer/images/catalogs/131/images/full/8077.jpg)

those are not even all of them.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Will Hooton on October 11, 2010, 04:46:40 am
Did they note that the coins were tooled in their descriptions as most other auction houses too? (And sometimes sell them at such prices as if they never were tooled!!)


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: benito on October 11, 2010, 04:56:02 am
Did they note that the coins were tooled in their descriptions as most other auction houses too? (And sometimes sell them at such prices as if they never were tooled!!)

Tooled. What a dirty word. Enhanced is rather nicer. ;D


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on October 11, 2010, 04:56:35 am
They noted it in the description but that doesn't make it any better in my opinion.
There is no price low enough for these coins and no one that calls themselves a coin dealer should sell them.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on October 19, 2010, 05:51:00 am
Nerva - described by seller as tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on October 19, 2010, 10:06:30 am
Nerva - described by seller as tooled.

If he could only see this coin, Nerva would be proud of his rhinoplasty!

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on October 19, 2010, 03:29:37 pm
How 'bout these....


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: mwilson603 on October 20, 2010, 07:05:10 am
At the risk of offending some, I almost think this thread should be renamed "Heavily Tooled Coins Here".  As to be honest, whilst I abhor the practice demonstrated in these coins, I have to say that some of them are not "Badly Tooled" but actually tooled very well.  i.e. on some of them a certain touch, or artistic skill, is shown.  If some of these engravers turned their skills to legitimate work, I would be pleased to buy their products.
regards
Mark


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on October 20, 2010, 07:29:47 am
Below is a small sample of dreadfully tooled and altered coins currently on offer by a major European auction house (2nd November). In line with Forum policy I'm not naming the auction or linking to it, but I can assure you that many more than the five coins illustrated below are tooled

Supposed M.AVF As:
This is tooled and altered possibly from a P.SVLA As whose distinctive style it shares, compare my untooled P.SVLA below
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ahala_rome/4004814634/

Supposed PVR As
Clearly tooled - see the obverse portrait, and may be an altered type too. I am not sure this coin started life as the scarce PVR.

Supposed Mamilia Semis
This coin looks badly tooled and looks nothing like the style of a genuine coin, and is also half the weight. I think this may be altered from a light coin of a completely different type. See my good example of Mamilia Semis, twice as heavy and completely, completely different in style and every details eg the design of the prow, the portrait.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ahala_rome/3351682888/

Gryphon As
The nice gryphon is in complete contrast to the worn remaining reverse, for example the letter ROMA is completely wrong style and is a new addition

M.ABVR GEM Quadrans
See from the obverse that the head was badly worn flat, and that the whole obverse has been chiselled into. If one knows the least thing about ancient coins you can see that the raised edge on the obverse - most obviously at 10pm - is essentially impossible on a genuine coin as obverse dies on ancient coins are cut-into flat metal rather than being cut-out-of a round bar.

I'm really amazed a respected auction house would accept such coins for sale.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on October 20, 2010, 11:36:27 am
I founded this thread because I came across some particularly bad tooling jobs.  It has since morphed into a thread encompassing all manner of tooling - the good, the bad, and the ugly.  (I fall into the camp that there's never 'good' tooling.)

That being said, this is an educational thread, where we learn by looking at examples and discuss them.  Knowledge is power and I hope this helps all of our hobby's enthusiasts. 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: mwilson603 on October 20, 2010, 02:45:15 pm
I founded this thread because I came across some particularly bad tooling jobs.  It has since morphed into a thread encompassing all manner of tooling - the good, the bad, and the ugly.  (I fall into the camp that there's never 'good' tooling.)
Just to clarify my position following my post earlier, especially after Andrew quoted me for a reason that I must admit I missed.  (sorry Andrew, I am obviously being slow tonight)
I also believe that any tooling of any coin is a bad thing, I just feel that sometimes some of the actual work involved shows a high degree of skill.  Although that doesn't alter the fact that the work itself is still unethical in my opinion.
regards
Mark


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on October 22, 2010, 03:02:20 pm
Interesting examples Aarmale. Can an expert tell me if the busts of those Nervas have been tooled, to me it looks like it's only the reverses have been tampered with?

To me, it looks like on both the reverses are tooled, but on the auction listing for the first coin, it says only the obverse is tooled, possibly by mistake.

Compare both the first tooled Nerva coin with this one, an un-tooled coin from what looks like the same reverse die.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on October 22, 2010, 03:14:40 pm
Top one does look at least smoothed on the reverse.

I don't think that the second coin is from the same rev. die, however.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on October 22, 2010, 03:21:20 pm
I don't think that the second coin is from the same rev. die, however.

Its hard to tell, especially not knowing how much the coin was tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on October 24, 2010, 04:25:17 pm
Today's entry from eBay:

Commodus sestertius.

I can understand the sad look on his face. He really took a beating.

In fact, I'm not even sure what this USED to be as the obverse legend is non-existent and the reverse legend is wrong for the type!

mz


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on November 01, 2010, 05:46:39 am
Maybe this one should be referred to as 'trenching' instead of 'tooling'.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: mwilson603 on November 01, 2010, 08:22:24 am
Maybe this one should be referred to as 'trenching' instead of 'tooling'.

That's not tooling.......it's woodworm!   :o


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on November 03, 2010, 05:39:34 am
This one makes me shudder.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on November 03, 2010, 05:51:44 am
Where do you think it's tooled?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: rover1.3 on November 03, 2010, 05:57:10 am
This one makes me shudder.



No,no,you are wrong.This is a very nice and interesting coin.
This is a babylonian imitative coin,it is not tooled.This style is typical on these.
Read here about imitations,and observe the third example given,is of the same type.
http://coins.reidgold.com/owls/imitations.html

EDIT.I found this same coin,sold as an imitation.
http://www.acsearch.info/ext-record.html?id=422398


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Matt Inglima on November 16, 2010, 12:39:57 am
Here's a beauty I bought (I'm sorry to say) back when I was a wide eyed beginner.  I like to keep it around as a reminder.  ::)



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on November 16, 2010, 01:01:28 am
*shudder*


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on November 16, 2010, 08:48:31 pm
Here's a sestertius of Claudius that's listed with an opening bid of $799.99!

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Matt Inglima on November 16, 2010, 10:28:48 pm
Quote
Here's a sestertius of Claudius that's listed with an opening bid of $799.99!

With that hooked nose and receding chin he looks more like Mr. Burns (which will be an appropriate moniker for someone if they buy it)  :-\


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on November 17, 2010, 01:10:41 pm
Thought I should add this one here as well as the Fake Reports.

Sold on eBay and listed by the seller as "smoothed." It's also heavily tooled.

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: goldenancients on November 20, 2010, 11:46:26 pm
Is it fake or tooled? That brings up the question of whether or not tooled coins should be grouped in with fakes. There is deception in both, but definitely not the same.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on November 22, 2010, 04:26:25 pm
Is it fake or tooled? That brings up the question of whether or not tooled coins should be grouped in with fakes. There is deception in both, but definitely not the same.

Danny,

we also discussed the Hadrian coin here:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=67258.0

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on November 23, 2010, 02:20:24 am
Such a tooled coin may not be the same as a fake (of course it could have been a completely different coin originally) but the difference is really academic. That is the reason that tooled coins have their own category in the fake reports as they should.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on November 27, 2010, 10:15:26 am
Here's one.

This is a sad example of a tooled First Revolt prutah. 
(http://www.acsearch.info/images/40/396559.jpg)



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on November 28, 2010, 03:16:07 pm
But in the image that prutah doesn't look tooled at all to me.

Surely modern dies, rather than a tooled ancient original?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on November 28, 2010, 03:28:56 pm
The letter Shin on the obverse (9:00-10:00) and the border were probably tooled. This was confirmed by J.P. Fontanille.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on November 29, 2010, 10:22:20 am
Sometimes tooling isn't so bad.




Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on November 29, 2010, 12:39:42 pm
Sometimes tooling isn't so bad.

If by that you mean "beyond the pale for tooled coins even," then yes, I agree  ::)

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on November 30, 2010, 02:37:18 pm
I've never seen a quadriga of donkeys before!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on November 30, 2010, 03:13:09 pm
I've never seen a quadriga of donkeys before!

Really!

Does this coin qualify as a "mule?"

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: ancientdave on November 30, 2010, 04:03:52 pm
Here is one just put up on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] by a well known seller who often trys to push lesser tooled coins such as this one through undisclosed. They also do this on their own sales site, more blatantly. It really irks me when I see well respected companies do this, because they know better. You can't just disclose the extreme smoothing and call it good, tooling is a whole other and much more serious issue. I know darn well that this company has far more experienced and knowledgeable folks on staff than I, and I can spot this baby as tooled a mile away. Just look at the wreath and the hair especially, it's pretty tough to miss. I must say that I am always quite dissapointed when I see this firm do this time and again, I expect a much better good faith effort at full disclosure from [REMOVED BY ADMIN] sellers.  I know that this one is more subtle, and not what I would term "badly" tooled (is there any other kind?) but to me it qualifies to be displayed here because I hold [REMOVED BY ADMIN] to a far higher standard personally.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on November 30, 2010, 04:22:39 pm
If you called him on it, he would probably be quick to add that the porosity was smoothed on the hair and wreath as well as the fields.

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on December 05, 2010, 11:41:25 pm
Thought I should add this one here as well as the Fake Reports.

Sold on eBay and listed by the seller as "smoothed." It's also heavily tooled.

mz

check this out!

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on December 06, 2010, 03:32:22 am
This is a very badly/dangerously tooled coin.  Bad in the sense of dangerous for numismatic study.  The tooling has created a mint control that does not exist in the emissions of the Baktrian Uncertain Mint C and if accepted blindly this would confuse, if not rewrite the history of Euthydemid mint operations in Baktria.

This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  To their credit CNG has identified quite explicitly in the description the tooling problem and the monogram issue:


BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Euthydemos I. Circa 225-200 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 16.14 g, 6h). Uncertain Mint C. Struck circa 215-210 BC. Diademed head right / Herakles seated left on rock, holding club set on rocks beside his knee; monogram to outer right. Kritt C2; Bopearachchi Série 4A; SNG ANS 122. Good VF, some porosity, smoothing and tooling, with the monogram being incorrectly re-engraved.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on December 20, 2010, 05:17:52 pm
Hadrian - "lightly tooled" for the holidays...



Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on January 05, 2011, 07:15:40 am
Happy New Year one and all!   Syracuse, Hieron II.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: ancientdave on January 05, 2011, 01:28:13 pm
This coin look familiar to anyone? This one sure does seem to get around, now it has surfaced on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] at a whopping price of $5,700 US!! I also have a hard time believing that it's an innocent mistake, seeing as how the new pic certainly seems designed to soften and hide the obvious signs of tooling. I am so disgusted right now! I will not name names, but search Hadrian Sestertius at $5,700 and you can see for yourself.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: mihali84 on January 05, 2011, 02:47:12 pm
What about this one being sold by a reputable auction house described as "smoothed and tooled"?  Not my area of focus so i can't tell wether or not it is "badly tooled" or just lightly worked, either way i would think the value would be greatly depreciated.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on January 06, 2011, 01:53:59 pm
This is the pic :).


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Matt Inglima on January 06, 2011, 02:02:46 pm
I noticed this denarius of Trajan close on eBay today that looks like the portrait of the emperor has had the details of the hair and laural wreath tooled.  It also looks like the fields might have been smoothed but can't tell for sure.  No mention of the coin having been tooled was in the description.  The bidding closed at $157.50.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on January 06, 2011, 02:07:54 pm
This is the pic :).

Haha, I really should have known but the preview worked. Thanks.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on January 06, 2011, 02:09:31 pm
No tooling or smoothing on that denarius, in my opinion.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on January 06, 2011, 02:30:02 pm
This is the pic :).

The guy on the obverse would have a hard time passing airport screening! 8)  And what of his one eyed faceless bull?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: ickster on January 06, 2011, 04:01:58 pm
This is the pic :).

I've obviously been spending too much time looking at coins. I recognized this picture right away and had to go back through the sites I had visited to find it again. Even to this newbie, this one seemed extremely "unreal", if that's an applicable word. I noticed that it is not listed as having been tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on January 06, 2011, 05:07:05 pm
The look on Julian II's face is obviously from the abuse he took on this coin.

The Trajan is possibly a bit odd looking due to the fact that this was a first-year issue with Nerva perhaps still on the mind of the engravers.

I'm no expert by any means, but I agree with Mr. C. that there does not seem to be any tooling.

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on January 06, 2011, 06:24:39 pm
Nero does Elvis...yours for the bidding in an upcoming German auction


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Matt Inglima on January 06, 2011, 08:26:16 pm
Quote
No tooling or smoothing on that denarius, in my opinion.

It might very well be original, and I hope for the buyer's sake that it is.  But to my eye there's something not quite right about the details in the hair and around the laurel leaves.  To know for sure we'd have to have the coin in hand.  It is an early Nerva-like portrait but with that rounded brow he looks like a strange human bull terrier hybrid.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on January 07, 2011, 05:47:47 am
A completely tooled entry...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: maridvnvm on January 07, 2011, 06:02:24 am
The Nero denarius isn't tooled but is made from modern dies. I believe that it is a Lipanoff. I know that the I recognise the reverse die as being a Lipanoff product. I need to look for the obverse. Here is an example from the fake reports:-

(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/albums/userpics/10618/Nero%7E1.jpg)

Martin


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: maridvnvm on January 07, 2011, 06:47:50 am
I suspect that the Trajan might also be a product of modern dies rather than a tooled effort. It looks to be from the same school as the following example from the fake reports.

(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/albums/userpics/19275/45%7E0.jpg)

Regards,
Martin


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on January 07, 2011, 11:37:41 am
You could be right, same school, different dies.  Seller clearly reported the coin as 'completely tooled'. 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Matt Inglima on January 07, 2011, 12:34:15 pm
Quote
A completely tooled entry...

An offering from the same seller as the Trajan denarius (that may or may not be tooled) I posted on January 6.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on January 07, 2011, 01:54:42 pm
The Nero denarius isn't tooled but is made from modern dies. I believe that it is a Lipanoff. I know that the I recognise the reverse die as being a Lipanoff product. I need to look for the obverse. Here is an example from the fake reports:-

Well spotted.  Outside my field of interest so I didn't check the fakes reports, even though it struck me as pretty weird in overall style on both sides.  But it does show the faker was an Elvis fan sufficient to be inspired by his hair.... uh! thank you veery muuuuch!


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on January 11, 2011, 05:38:06 am
Sold as lightly tooled with original patina removed.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on January 11, 2011, 12:55:25 pm
A couple of hideous offerings from sylester.ekaterina @ eBay, posted with this disclaimer:

I  am  only a seller from nice coins .I not really now everything from roman coins . I buy what i think i can sell again !

if i have somthing wrong about age ,date ,emperor ,toolt or even the coin is a fake or somthing other  please understand i dont now this then and please write me about this !

So there has not to be a drama about the auction how some ebayers think they must do .

WHAT I SELL IS WHAT I THINK IS AUTHENTIC.


mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on January 11, 2011, 01:02:36 pm
Has anyone informed the poor woman?


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on January 13, 2011, 05:26:44 am
A gussie-upped Gorgon...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: OldMoney on January 13, 2011, 07:38:06 am
Ugly, Ugly, Ugly!!!

(http://www.walterholt.com/110501s.jpg)

Walter Holt


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on January 13, 2011, 08:27:36 am
Another entry.

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on February 05, 2011, 08:35:28 pm
He/she took some time off, but "moonstone_lovely" is back.

Behold!

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: commodus on February 05, 2011, 09:47:48 pm
I suspect a fake to begin with, tooled then dipped in his own special patina formula® by moonstone_lovely in his highly recognizeable and inimitable style in order to hide the evidence of casting.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on February 06, 2011, 08:06:38 am
He seems to be changing up the reverses. More likely with casting, right?

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on February 06, 2011, 01:07:54 pm
What's the opinion on this one? I want to make sure before contacting the seller.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on February 06, 2011, 11:00:23 pm
Stumbled across this one tonight on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] and then stumbled onto it here.

No comment as to authenticity, but I will say that Hadrian's nose seems less aquiline that usual on this one, at least compared to the RIC 750 specimens on coinarchives.com.

On the reverse, I don't like the way Felicitas' upper torso looks. Frequently, it seems that these toolers like to put breasts on under drapery to somehow make sure you notice them.

I've never dealt with him/her (long-time dealer, though), so I can't comment there, either.  :-\

But yes, a bad feeling...

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Reid Goldsborough on February 11, 2011, 08:12:10 pm
This one is from an auction house that used to be reputable and is now the bottom of the barrel.

(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53363.0;attach=144257;image)

Anyone else here contact Hirsch about the above badly tooled coin, and the others like it in its current auction, Auktion 271? I did, and know others did too. I received a response that "We will check this immediately." The coin is still up for auction, a full month later, with the auction taking place next week. I related this elsewhere. Doctoring like this without full disclosure violates dealer codes of ethics of various numismatic organizations. Not trying to be puritanical or anything here. And as full disclosure, I offered Hirsch an appropriate sum for this piece as a damaged coin if it wasn't a consignment item. I collect these Julian II Bull bronzes, and this is an interesting example of tooling that attempts to deceptively make a coin appear to have less wear and be more valuable.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on February 12, 2011, 01:36:48 am
They know, it is their business model. They will sell everything and add a provenance for a fee.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: benito on February 12, 2011, 02:57:47 am
They know, it is their business model. They will sell everything and add a provenance for a fee.

Including fakes .Though for this coin they do not give the provenance.
BTW. What means geglatett. Smoothed ? Tooled? Or something totally different. In many of his coins he uses the word.




Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on February 12, 2011, 08:43:07 am
Smoothed. Which is sometimes used by some sellers when 'heavily tooled' would be more accurate.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on February 15, 2011, 05:41:11 am
Both were advertised as obverse tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on February 21, 2011, 06:56:01 am
Prepare to wince at this Tooling Hall Of Shame candidate.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on February 28, 2011, 05:19:38 am
Jimmy Durante and his well manicured lady friend:


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Tacitus on March 01, 2011, 03:58:31 pm
I snorted coca cola through my nose while reading the Jimmy Durante....  to freakin funny.  True though, he does have the Schnozz's nose!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Brian L on March 01, 2011, 04:10:07 pm
 "Good night, Mrs. Calabash--wherever you are!"
   Ha,cha,cha,cha ;D


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on March 09, 2011, 05:27:15 am
This week's entry.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on March 15, 2011, 07:12:54 am
The emperor Tooljan.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: ancientdave on March 15, 2011, 10:55:13 pm
Is it just me? I don't want to believe it in this case.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on March 16, 2011, 03:43:19 am
The hair and the drapery showing through Concordias legs seem tooled, they don't look like that on any of the examples I compared with. The seller is known for some cases of repaired gold coins a while back, just FYI.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: ancientdave on March 16, 2011, 06:00:22 pm
The hair and the drapery showing through Concordias legs seem tooled, they don't look like that on any of the examples I compared with. The seller is known for some cases of repaired gold coins a while back, just FYI.

This is exactly what I see as well. Dissapointing.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Optimo Principi on March 17, 2011, 06:33:14 am
The seller is known for some cases of repaired gold coins a while back, just FYI.

This type of background information should be collected somewhere for buyers to reference. Just knowing whether someone sells outright fakes dioesn't seem to be enough, there are seemingly many other misdemeanours that sellers get away with


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on March 18, 2011, 11:35:56 am
Yikes!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Tacitus on March 19, 2011, 02:47:33 pm
That hair would be bad in real life!


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on March 22, 2011, 05:30:31 am
This hemilitron was listed as 'heavily tooled'.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Tacitus on March 22, 2011, 08:08:41 pm
When is a heavily tooled coin no longer worth anything?
Is there a line that someone can cross from tooling to creating?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: commodus on March 22, 2011, 09:13:56 pm
When is a heavily tooled coin no longer worth anything?
Is there a line that someone can cross from tooling to creating?

Yes, but as Justice Potter Stewart of the U.S. Supreme Court once said of pornography: "it is difficult to define, but I know it when I see it."


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on March 24, 2011, 03:45:05 pm
Exactly. If the coin's rare, I could live with a little tooling, as long as it wasn't too blatant. But you can't count up the area worked on and calculate it that way, any more than you can define pornography on the basis on the number of square inches of flesh on display.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on March 24, 2011, 07:30:08 pm
How about this one:
(http://www.acsearch.info/images/4/32572.jpg)
It seems the whole bottom half of this coin is tooled, and more.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on March 25, 2011, 04:45:05 am
This is a very badly/dangerously tooled coin.  Bad in the sense of dangerous for numismatic study.  The tooling has created a mint control that does not exist in the emissions of the Baktrian Uncertain Mint C and if accepted blindly this would confuse, if not rewrite the history of Euthydemid mint operations in Baktria.

This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  To their credit CNG has identified quite explicitly in the description the tooling problem and the monogram issue:


BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Euthydemos I. Circa 225-200 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 16.14 g, 6h). Uncertain Mint C. Struck circa 215-210 BC. Diademed head right / Herakles seated left on rock, holding club set on rocks beside his knee; monogram to outer right. Kritt C2; Bopearachchi Série 4A; SNG ANS 122. Good VF, some porosity, smoothing and tooling, with the monogram being incorrectly re-engraved.

This one is now for sale on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] at twice the price without reference to the tooling and completely incorrect monogram that results from the tooling.... see the potential to re-write history and/or screw numismatic research through the incomplete disclosure and actions of less than scrupulous reputable dealers?

As I said originally This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  

It saddens me that some dealers play to this sort of deception.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: benito on March 25, 2011, 05:40:56 am
This is a very badly/dangerously tooled coin.  Bad in the sense of dangerous for numismatic study.  The tooling has created a mint control that does not exist in the emissions of the Baktrian Uncertain Mint C and if accepted blindly this would confuse, if not rewrite the history of Euthydemid mint operations in Baktria.

This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  To their credit CNG has identified quite explicitly in the description the tooling problem and the monogram issue:


BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Euthydemos I. Circa 225-200 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 16.14 g, 6h). Uncertain Mint C. Struck circa 215-210 BC. Diademed head right / Herakles seated left on rock, holding club set on rocks beside his knee; monogram to outer right. Kritt C2; Bopearachchi Série 4A; SNG ANS 122. Good VF, some porosity, smoothing and tooling, with the monogram being incorrectly re-engraved.

This one is now for sale on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] at twice the price without reference to the tooling and completely incorrect monogram that results from the tooling.... see the potential to re-write history and/or screw numismatic research through the incomplete disclosure and actions of less than scrupulous reputable dealers?

As I said originally This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  

It saddens me that some dealers play to this sort of deception.

NOT exactly twice the price ,but almost. Taking into consideration the hammer price and buyers
premium its a circa 95 % mark up. Thats up to the seller .Not mentioning the tooling and other problems is another thing.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on March 25, 2011, 06:07:49 am
Of course it would be worth a lot more if the PK monogram were genuine.... because as a unique specimen of such it would re-write numismatic history! So is the non-disclosure of the falsely tooled monogram an omission of ignorance, or of design? I'll let you be the judge, but I am pretty certain of which is the case.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on March 30, 2011, 05:16:55 am
Shave and a haircut - 2 bits!



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on March 30, 2011, 09:21:34 pm
Shave and a haircut - 2 bits!

 ;D .... at least this one has a bit of rough charm to it (at least in my opinion).... I have received far worse haircuts and beard trims over the years and only wish I looked as ruggedly good after them.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: cmcdon0923 on March 30, 2011, 10:13:51 pm
Reminds me somewhat of a hobo nickel portrait......


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on April 13, 2011, 12:21:25 pm
Offered as "minimally tooled".


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on April 13, 2011, 01:07:31 pm
I've noted this seller in the past and I have the feeling that I do not want to buy from him.

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on April 18, 2011, 05:14:28 am
Ya think there's been any tooling around the legends?



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Minos on April 18, 2011, 05:41:53 am
A worthy coin in an unworthy condition :azn:


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Galaxy on April 18, 2011, 07:37:04 am
Ghengis Jon, this Antoninus Pius coin is untouched


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on April 18, 2011, 12:25:46 pm
Seller reports (on the Andy Pius) "...with evidence of tooling around the legends..."


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Galaxy on April 18, 2011, 12:28:29 pm
He is probably mistaken, these sorts of depressions around the legend letters of large bronzes is not an uncommon phenomenon, this coin does not look tooled at all.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on April 19, 2011, 08:54:28 am
As Galaxy notes, depressions around the legend do not necessarily mean tooling.  Depressions can result from the flow of metal filling the dies.  I am not entirely sure of the physics but it does happen.  Also, reengraved/repaired dies sometimes result in similar looking depressions. There may be tooling on that coin, or perhaps not.     


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Dk0311USMC on April 27, 2011, 08:34:35 pm
Here is the most tooled coin I have. 

AS of Antoninus Pius.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on May 03, 2011, 05:40:34 am
Tooled and smoothed.  I'd love to have one of these beauts in my collection, but untouched please.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Pscipio on May 03, 2011, 03:44:11 pm
Admittedly a small picture, but that Trajan doesn't look tooled to me. What makes you sure it is?

Lars


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on May 04, 2011, 05:45:30 am
As specifically advertised by the seller.  Unless stunningly blatant, I would never offer up a coin here as tooled without such a seller pronouncement.  In this case, I would agree with the seller.

Looks to me like the right obverse field and just left of the mintmark on the reverse have been smoothed.  I don't see anything wrong with the bust of Trajan but the inconsistant wear and abrupt detail changes on the reverse raise enough of an eyebrow to warrant magnification.  That patina sure looks a lot like Jax.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on May 23, 2011, 05:48:29 am
Offered up as smoothed and tooled.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on May 27, 2011, 04:00:38 pm
Absolutely hair raising!

Described as:
Roman Republic, Sextus Pompey, AE AS Craw. 478, SR 348, Died 35 BC, F+.  Laureate Janiform head, with features of Pompey the Great, MAGN above/Rev. Prow of galley right, PIVS above

Deserves entry in the Worst of The Type Gallery.... if only we had one!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Galaxy on May 27, 2011, 05:04:01 pm
Lloyd, could this be a badly cleaned 'Imitative' with scratched surfaces rather than a tooled official piece? The style is messed up to be sure, but I'm not sure I see any evidence of detail-tooling here. I would be curious to know the weight of this piece, it might tell us something.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on May 27, 2011, 05:19:18 pm
I find it difficult to believe that the jaw lines, eye outlines, hair and the left end of the prow are not the result of tooling.  The surfaces have all been heavily smoothed and to my eye the design roughly carved into the otherwise smoothed surfaces.  Little of it looks to bear an original surface IMHO. It may well be a heavily tooled imitative.  However, based on the photo I find it extremely difficult to believe that it has not been subject to heavy smoothing and tooling.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on May 31, 2011, 06:48:59 am
Pretty easy to spot.



Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on June 22, 2011, 05:27:08 am
Here's one for you.  Look at the eye and jawline on the obverse and the leaves on the reverse.  Brutal.



Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 05, 2011, 06:06:35 am
The 'eyes' have it...



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on July 06, 2011, 02:24:49 am
Sold with the honest description... VF, tooled surfaces.   However, I am not sure how such a tooled coin can be described as VF.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on July 06, 2011, 07:23:58 pm
For tooled coins, Forum normally does not include a grade, except TOOLED.  We avoid selling tooled coins but if we are stuck with one and the other alternative is throwing it in the garbage, we usually put it on eBay.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on July 11, 2011, 05:01:32 pm
Just doing a desultory browse on e*ay and stumbled across this one.

Hair and wings are tooled, right?

mz

CLICK FOR LARGER PICTURE


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: quisquam on July 12, 2011, 08:10:00 am
Hair and wings are tooled, right?

I don't think so.

Stefan


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 17, 2011, 02:46:35 pm
I can only shake my head at this one.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on July 17, 2011, 03:10:12 pm
Definitely a strong contender for the Worst in Class title.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 26, 2011, 05:59:16 am
Both manes have been 'improved'.



Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 01, 2011, 05:26:36 am
A well tended coif...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on August 01, 2011, 06:29:06 pm
Two heads are better than one when it comes to tooling... at least this seems to be the conclusion from the popularity of this type with the toolers.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Steve E on August 01, 2011, 07:17:54 pm
Mr Hyde and Dr. Jekyll  ;D

~Steve


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 08, 2011, 06:07:52 am
The hammer price for the Janusform Sextus Pompey was €222 ($315 US).   Here's the reverse:




Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on August 08, 2011, 06:33:27 am
The hammer price for the Janusform Sextus Pompey was €222 ($315 US).   Here's the reverse:

The buyer would have been better served spending the money on new spectacles!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on August 11, 2011, 12:11:01 pm
A well tended coif...

A friend brightly pointed out that this is in fact a Pompey/Agrippa As (Agrippa facing right with his characteristic battered features and broken nose). Yes of course it is!

The seller did plainly say that the coin is tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on August 15, 2011, 01:53:00 pm
Here's a tooled Cleopatra VII and an unaltered one to compare.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Frans Diederik on August 16, 2011, 01:44:30 pm
Here's an Antoninus as which ought to have Jupiter seated.......nude to the waist!


Frans


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 19, 2011, 08:52:47 am
Gasp!!  Poor Hadrian...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: rover1.3 on August 23, 2011, 01:11:14 pm
No comment.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Enodia on August 23, 2011, 01:20:21 pm
wow.
that should qualify as animal abuse. 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Frans Diederik on August 23, 2011, 03:08:00 pm
Probably belonged to a dentist who couldn't stand the gasping cavities... ;D


Frans

PS the fillings could be ancient, though.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on August 23, 2011, 03:23:45 pm
A very interesting example of attempted ancient repair, rather than tooling. The infill of the test cuts looks ancient, rather than modern, with no attempt to deceive by matching the metal, bronze (or is it iron?) infill in a silver coin! The effort involved in the repairs would have been appreciable to achieve a tight match to the varying shape of each cut. The repairs appears to be an effort to improve the cosmetics of the coin (in ancient times?).  The fact that one cut remains incompletely filled, or more likely has lost its part of its filling, suggests an ancient origin, rather than a modern attempt to deceive.

However, the question remains... why?  

I vaguely recall some numismatic research, which suggested that defaced coins were less acceptable in some regions and this may explain why, although I am not certain on this point.

Certainly the coin has a story to tell and that makes it all the more interesting. It'd be nice to examine it more closely and see what can be gleaned by way of form and process applied to make the repairs.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Enodia on August 24, 2011, 01:34:26 am
i'm always curious as to why these coins were so butchered.   ???
i mean, what did the fifth test cut reveal that the other four hadn't already?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on August 24, 2011, 01:48:24 am
i'm always curious as to why these coins were so butchered.   ???
i mean, what did the fifth test cut reveal that the other four hadn't already?

One theory is that these were not tests cuts at all, but rather administrative marks/controls made by different authorities in the Persian administration in the east, where many of the Athenian tets ended up circulating. The placement of each cut is specific to the administrative body concerned according to this theory.  Thus this coin circulated through several administrative controls in the East, if this theory is correct.  This theory makes sense to me, but is rejected by many others.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Steve E on August 24, 2011, 02:05:36 am
The placement of each cut is specific to the administrative body concerned according to this theory.

I imagine the administration who chose their mark to be between the eyes of the owl, had little trouble collecting taxes ;D

~Steve


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on August 24, 2011, 03:14:24 am
But why did these authorities mark the coins according to this theory?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on August 24, 2011, 04:49:39 am
But why did these authorities mark the coins according to this theory?

The answer to that lies in the Persian administrative system. Unfortunately the workings of the Persian administration are not documented in any depth. Any answer thus becomes even more speculative than the theory that the cuts reflect a form of administrative control. It probably serves well to remember that in many regions these cuts (and often heavily counter marked) coins are found the economy was far from fully monetized, so that the coins served little purpose other than for official transactions involving and between the economic and social elite and Persian administrative entities, with the coins acting as little more than silver bullion.  Such being the case the cuts could have served to track source and payment within the administration. In such capacity a specific cut could represent a warranty from a specific part of the administration as to the quality of the coin/silver with the implication that if something was found wanting, or there was a shortfall in payment, then blame/responsibility could be apportioned accordingly.

Van Alfen in his various papers on 'owls" has touched upon the subject of the role of such cuts and counter marks in the Persian realm. He has also suggested that in the early period of monetization of a region the cuts and counter marks may have served as "marks of ownership and guarantees of worth".

The interesting and relevant fact is that the cutting and extensive counter marking evident on owls that circulated in the Persian domain is not anywhere near as frequent, or extensive,  on later coinages (e.g. Alexanders) once this Persian domain fell under Greek influence and the control various Hellenistic Administrations following the conquests of Alexander.  This is suggestive of some sort of role for the cuts in the Persian administration of early monetized regions and a departure from this administrative practice under later Hellenistic control in what were eventually to become fully monetized economies.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 24, 2011, 08:04:41 am
That makes perfect sense in regards to countermarks.  But anyone with a flat piece of bronze and a rock could 'legitimize' coinage in their possesion.  Perhaps it worked in the opposite direction - cut coins were deemed of lesser purity?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on August 24, 2011, 02:53:27 pm
That makes perfect sense in regards to countermarks.  But anyone with a flat piece of bronze and a rock could 'legitimize' coinage in their possesion.  Perhaps it worked in the opposite direction - cut coins were deemed of lesser purity?

In the theory, the key is that these cuts served no purpose and held no significance for the populace at large, that existed in an essentially barter based economy. The cuts served a purpose for the Persian administration, which was far from being just an 'anybody'.  Think in terms of what are essentially bullion (weight based) settlements/transactions and payments between administrative entities and elites and you get a better picture of the possible accounting and administrative purpose these cuts might have served. The economy of the Persian east, removed from the Mediterranean coastal regions was essentially a non-monetized economy at the times these coins found their way into Persian treasury.  As monetization progressed cuts were probably replaced by counter marks which held significance for the broader populace and this occurred for the very reason you articulate, but this is a later development in the economic administration that accompanied more widespread usage of coinage.

The alternative is to think that the ancients were a bunch of clowns who didn't believe the evidence of their eyes when confronted with existing test cut(s) and then proceeded to further bash and slice a coin on each transaction.  Possible, but unlikely and if so it begs the question raised by Enodia to which the answer is thus stupidity.  I give the ancients more credit than the explanation of stupidity. An administrative purpose is far more probable in my opinion, even if we cannot be entirely specif as to what that purpose was, because of our ignorance of the matter.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Steve E on August 24, 2011, 04:48:04 pm
Lloyd,
Thats the best explanation of test cuts I've ever heard!
Thank You!

~Steve


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on August 24, 2011, 05:54:06 pm
Steve - thanks.

I forgot to mention another supporting fact for the administrative theory.  The cuts are not random.  Recognizable and consistent patters are evident e.g. between the eyes, across the owl's throat, etc. If the cuts were purely for testing the nature of the core of the coin, then a systematic pattern would not be observed. Rather greater randomness would prevail.  Another supporting fact is that the cuts were done in a way that essentially negated damage to the rest of the coin.  The example posted demonstrates this amply.  No deformation on the side opposite the cut.  If the aim were to simply test for the presence of a  silver core, then such care in testing/cutting would be unlikely.

The cuts on the posted coin, like those on so many others, have been carefully and systematically placed in a manner to minimize damage to the coin beyond the cut. This is more than testing for the presence of a silver core and speaks of an administrative function.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Reid Goldsborough on August 24, 2011, 06:23:32 pm
I'm going to have to disagree with this. The test cuts on Owls are random. Yes, many are on the reverse, and many of these split the owl's head or body, but I believe this is only because this is the thickest part of the coin, and the reverse is the concave side, both conditions leading to fewer cracked coins when hit with a hammer and chisel. But some Owls are test cut on the obverse, and some on the edge. The cuts were all crude, and some did in fact crack the coin or flatten the coin's other side. Further, countermarking as a technology existed in the East for 150 years, more or less, before mass Owls, the most frequently test cut, were initiated.

I believe multiple test cuts refers neither to a weirdly crude accounting system or to stupidity on the part of ancient peoples but to the high occurrence of counterfeiting in ancient times, which reached the point where some counterfeits were made of plated base metal with a test cut engraved in the die as a further attempt to fool. Just as merchants in the Far East during the 18th and 19th centuries chop-marked U.S. Trade dollars, Spanish-American Pillar dollars, and other silver trade coins multiple times to test their authenticity, not trusting these coins (sometimes as well to indicate who it was who did the authentication), I believe merchants in the Near East in ancient times test cut Owls for the same purpose, only more crudely since this was a much earlier time.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on August 24, 2011, 06:59:48 pm
As I said earlier, not every one agrees with the administration theory (actually its better referred to as a hypothesis).  

To each his own.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Reid Goldsborough on August 24, 2011, 09:21:08 pm
Congenial disagreement is nice.  :) Nice change too.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on August 25, 2011, 03:17:40 pm
If you're right, the frequency of test cuts should vary with geographical location, and they should be commonest within the Persian territories of the time. Is there any evidence to suggest that this is the case?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Reid Goldsborough on August 25, 2011, 03:33:57 pm
I'd have to spend time I don't have to track down the reference or references, but I recall reading that Owls found outside of Greece, in the East, in lands at the time that were part of the Achaemenid Persian empire, are found much more often test cut than those found in Greece. But only a tiny fraction of Owls hoards like other hoards are documented, so the evidence I suspect is fairly sparse.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on August 26, 2011, 03:31:29 pm
I've certainly heard that they're more likely to be cut outside Greece, but I can't remember any more than that.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on August 27, 2011, 05:45:00 pm
I'd have to spend time I don't have to track down the reference or references, but I recall reading that Owls found outside of Greece, in the East, in lands at the time that were part of the Achaemenid Persian empire, are found much more often test cut than those found in Greece. But only a tiny fraction of Owls hoards like other hoards are documented, so the evidence I suspect is fairly sparse.

True that in Egyptian and Eastern eastern finds frequency of cut and multiply cut owls is much higher than in Greece and surrounds to the extent that some finds consist of a majority of cut and/or punch marked owls e.g. The1989 Syria Hoard.  For some papers which touch on the subject and contain further references, refer to Peter van Alfen's two articles in AJN 14 (2002):

The owls from the 1989 Syria Hoard with a review of Macedonian coinage in Egypt.
Two unpublished hoards and other owls from Egypt


The last documents the interesting Endicott's Hoard which consist exclusively of multiply punch marked owls which may been seen as a logical progression from the multiply cutting administrative approach. The practice of marking coins (of which multiple systematic cuts are but one means) evolved with time and shows a significant geographical and temporal distribution that hints at different practices in different regions at different times.  One rule or theory of marking is not applicable throughout the Mediterraneanand adjacent Persian lands and/or throughout time. To quote van Alfen: Over the course of time, from the sixth century BC on, the use and function of countermarks presumably underwent gradual development.: "it is the common view that the early countermarks were private marks of ownership or guarantees of worth, but that during the hellenistic period countermarking became a monopoly of civic or royal authority. (Howego 1985, Le Rider 1975). Marking coins with countermarks, cuts, and graffiti was enormously widespread practice in the Levant and Egypt during the Persian Period (sixth to fourth centuries BC; Elayi and Lemaire 1988), arguably more so than in the Aegean......

From another time and place, but another example of what is usually interpreted to be a test cut but is in fact an official act of "damnatio memoriae".... one of the first in the ancient Greek world? http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=52033.0

Anyway interesting as this is it is a long way off topic for this thread...tooling. Perhaps the subject of coin marking should be broken out into a separate discussion thread as there is a lot that can be said and many examples shown, which raise multiple questions as well as given multiple insights into the practice of cutting and marking in general.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 29, 2011, 05:39:48 am
I love this Syracuse issue and the coin reminds me that I need to acquire one for my zoo...but unfortunately not this one. 



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on August 29, 2011, 07:35:13 pm
Don't you just love the finely tooled detail of the mane on the lion skin headdress of Herakles.....

Accompanied by this wonderful eye popping description... VF with nice toning. Some hatching on the obverse which could be an inscription. A scarce and desirable lifetime issue from the popular Egyptian mint.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on September 06, 2011, 07:18:30 am
Tooled and smoothed.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: rover1.3 on September 06, 2011, 07:40:51 am
Tryphon, "the Tooled".


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Dk0311USMC on September 06, 2011, 08:26:29 am
Don't you just love the finely tooled detail of the mane on the lion skin headdress of Herakles.....

Accompanied by this wonderful eye popping description... VF with nice toning. Some hatching on the obverse which could be an inscription. A scarce and desirable lifetime issue from the popular Egyptian mint.

Looks like someone missed their mark trying to tool the chin too!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on September 06, 2011, 03:38:47 pm
Don't you just love the finely tooled detail of the mane on the lion skin headdress of Herakles.....

Accompanied by this wonderful eye popping description... VF with nice toning. Some hatching on the obverse which could be an inscription. A scarce and desirable lifetime issue from the popular Egyptian mint.

Looks like someone missed their mark trying to tool the chin too!

  ;D The more i look at this coin the more convinced I become that it is not simply tooled, but more likely a TOOLED CAST FAKE!  The best of all deceptive worlds  :evil:


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on September 06, 2011, 03:51:47 pm
Could one make a fake coin look more authentic by tooling it, and then by saying that the coin was tooled when selling it so stylistic irregularities on the coin would not arouse suspicion?  :police:


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on September 06, 2011, 03:59:14 pm
Could one make a fake coin look more authentic by tooling it, and then by saying that the coin was tooled when selling it so stylistic irregularities on the coin would not arouse suspicion?  :police:

Anything is possible with these sort of fraudsters.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on September 06, 2011, 04:41:48 pm
I'm pretty sure we've discussed this coin in the past and had decided that it was a total fake as opposed to retooled.

However, here is something that caught my eye:

"I purchased this coin several months ago on eBay.  The seller guaranteed the coin to be genuine.  Well the coin is 100% genuine as shown by getting an NGC label.  But unfortunately the coin has been enhanced and impaired by having the details re-cut.

I have no idea how much re-cutting took place.

The color of the coin is simply wonderful with light green patina.  

So through my mistake someone has the opportunity to acquire a truly wonderful looking ancient bronze that although impaired really does not look it unless you know what to look for.

I have no idea how to price such a piece but I am starting it at $30 which does not cover my NGC fee when you factor in the round trip registered mail cost."


Interestingly, it's currently going for $250 USD with a little over 2 hours to go.

mz

EDIT: sold for $350!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Randygeki(h2) on September 06, 2011, 04:47:10 pm
heres one of Pius


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: quisquam on September 06, 2011, 10:32:05 pm
Is it offered as being tooled? I see no tooling at all.

Stefan


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on September 06, 2011, 10:40:02 pm
I'm pretty sure we've discussed this coin in the past and had decided that it was a total fake as opposed to retooled.

To my eye coin does not appear to be tooled (but I am far from expert in this type of coin).  However, I would not be surprised to learn that tooling fakes is but one tactic used by the fraudster to divert attention from the fake nature of the coin.  Similarly the pretense that a coin is tooled could be also used to divert attention from the fake nature of a coin. People focus on the tooling, rather than the authenticity of the host and many believe (mistakenly) that any tooled coin must be authentic, based on the naive assumption that no-one would tool a fake, which is off course completely illogical reasoning. A faker will do anything and adopt any tactic to move his wares.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on September 07, 2011, 03:52:25 am
This is a very interesting one and shows the lengths to which some fraudsters will go....

CNG's comment on withdrawing the coin from auction ....

WITHDRAWN. This is a genuine billon coin that has been mostly re-engraved. The fields have been lowered, especially toward the center of the coin, to produce the new or improved design. All the central detail is heavily tooled, although the legends are mostly original. The color is silvery because this is a billon coin with some silver content. Note how the coin is more silvery in the centers where the surface has been most reduced--the outer part of the coin has genuine oxidation, whereas the centers have been reduced/tooled down to the interior of the flan. Unlike the obverse, though, some of the tooled areas on the reverse have had a new silver "wash" applied. This is clearly visible, under high magnification, along the contours of the relief. Overall, the outlines formed by the tooling on both sides are sharper than they would be from original striking.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on September 08, 2011, 07:46:49 am
Lloyd,

The most interesting aspect of this coin is the hair. I've never seen anything like this.

Was it there before the retooling?

Are there other examples available for comparison?

mz

p.s. for me, the first red flag on this one is the overly-sharp/acutely-angled nose, which seems to be a hallmark of retooled coins.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Pscipio on September 08, 2011, 11:34:41 am
Yes, the bust type with lion's scalp is known (though not on antoniniani) but stylewise this one is off. I am surprised the tooling had not been noted before.

Lars


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on September 08, 2011, 01:02:12 pm
Yes, the bust type with lion's scalp is known (though not on antoniniani) but stylewise this one is off. I am surprised the tooling had not been noted before.

Lars

Lars,

On which denomination would we see a bust with a lion's scalp?

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Pscipio on September 08, 2011, 03:53:58 pm
Out of my memory and without checking: I recall having seen it on medallions and on denarii. I don't think it exists on antoniniani, which is hardly surprising as it would be difficult to combine it with a radiate crown.

Lars


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on September 08, 2011, 03:59:22 pm
.... but stylewise this one is off. I am surprised the tooling had not been noted before.

Probably the result of pressure of time when cataloging 2,200 items for the auction.  Very much to their credit CNG have very publicly set the record straight (I lifted it straight from the auction website) rather than simply withdraw the coin without statement/explanation.  I admire that sort of responsible attitude.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Pscipio on September 08, 2011, 04:13:55 pm
The original (very long!) description had some rather strange explanation as to why their is no radiate crown on this specimen (a normal die recut in antiquity), so obviously they took the time to check it closely. But yes, errors always happen and it is praisable that they added an explanation to the website as to why it was withdrawn.

By the way, I was wrong in saying that the bust type doesn't exist for antoniniani (my day was too long, I guess): it does (cf. Göbl 355 ff.), but the style is very different.

Lars


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on September 10, 2011, 08:51:33 pm
I'm pretty sure we've discussed this coin in the past and had decided that it was a total fake as opposed to retooled.

To my eye coin does not appear to be tooled (but I am far from expert in this type of coin).  However, I would not be surprised to learn that tooling fakes is but one tactic used by the fraudster to divert attention from the fake nature of the coin.  Similarly the pretense that a coin is tooled could be also used to divert attention from the fake nature of a coin. People focus on the tooling, rather than the authenticity of the host and many believe (mistakenly) that any tooled coin must be authentic, based on the naive assumption that no-one would tool a fake, which is off course completely illogical reasoning. A faker will do anything and adopt any tactic to move his wares.

Lloyd,

I was doing a little research on this coin and browsing back through some links and it had popped up quite few times a while back.

We talked about it at length here:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=53363.0

and here:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=67258.0

I think one of these links is to this thread.

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on September 10, 2011, 09:08:08 pm
Mark - they are two different coins as far as I can see. Photos below for comparison.  The first is the one I made comment upon regarding that it did not appear tooled (at least to my inexperienced eye). The second is from the thread
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=67258.0 and is clearly tooled.  


Note : on one coin (not tooled?) Hadrian is diademed and laureate on the other the laurel wreath is absent (tooled away?).


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on September 10, 2011, 09:10:48 pm
We had discussed the notion there seemed to be several iterations of the same coin and maybe they were cast fakes.

But, yes, these are two different coins.

On the bottom one, it looks like the wreath ties have been removed but there is still an artifact of them having been there.

The shapes are similar, for sure.

mz



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on September 10, 2011, 09:22:42 pm
Then the second is possibly a tooled fake. It wouldn't be the first, let alone only one,  by any stretch of the imagination.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on September 10, 2011, 10:23:47 pm
Then the second is possibly a tooled fake. It wouldn't be the first, let alone only one,  by any stretch of the imagination.

lol that's true.

For a while there it seemed like another one like these was popping up on eBay every week.

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: esnible on September 24, 2011, 04:12:14 pm
This Kushan coin is one of my favorite tooled coins.  I really like the three-fingered Santa Claus, but not as much as as the goggle-eyed horse rider.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on September 24, 2011, 04:40:01 pm
That is too funny.

I'm only sorry I did not find that one.

mz


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on September 26, 2011, 08:55:21 am
Another day, another tooled coin.


Title: Tooled Lucilla sesti?
Post by: Tibsi on October 02, 2011, 06:45:57 am
From e*ay. What's your opinion?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on October 02, 2011, 08:06:52 am
We have discussed this seller's offerings in this thread in the past so I'm already suspicious.

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on October 02, 2011, 09:03:25 am
From e*ay. What's your opinion?
It looks tooled and smoothed.  Really bad.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Tacitus on November 03, 2011, 03:32:28 pm
For tooled coins, Forum normally does not include a grade, except TOOLED.  We avoid selling tooled coins but if we are stuck with one and the other alternative is throwing it in the garbage, we usually put it on eBay.

I would be open to buying tooled Tacitus's ... let me know when you are offering them on Ebay.... As long as I know a head of time they are tooled, I would bid on them


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on November 04, 2011, 08:20:57 am
Here's one to start the month of November.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on November 04, 2011, 09:17:19 am
These larger coins of Julian II seem to be a favorite target of tools...er, toolers, don't they?

You definitely need to watch out for the bullsh*t with these coins  ::)

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on November 06, 2011, 01:23:08 am
Republican As, currently on sale by a generally well respected vendor: it's so badly tooled that one can't even tell which era of the Roman Republic it comes from, but I'm very afraid, from the shape of the prow, that the seller has converted an extremely rare coin type, an As of C.Fonteius of 114BC which would ordinarily sell for hundreds even in worn condition, to an extremely common type (RRC 56) but tooled. Here is an As of C.FONT for comparison, note the prow shape:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ahala_rome/3417418900/lightbox/


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on November 06, 2011, 09:11:46 pm
I hope it wasn't the seller who did the tooling.  That sort of treatment condemns the coin to an unwanted state at any price.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on November 24, 2011, 06:13:58 pm
Not a hair out of place...


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on December 06, 2011, 07:37:42 am
This week's tooled entry:


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on December 06, 2011, 07:55:01 am
To save time:

[LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

a high percentage of the Greek bronzes are tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on December 06, 2011, 08:25:38 am
To save time:

http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewsale&sid=500&cid=19571&s=b

a high percentage of the Greek bronzes are tooled.

This from the seller of many many of the tooled bronzes mentioned above in the last month or two. The linked example includes a particularly nasty tooled aes grave which might fetch a lot of money.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on December 06, 2011, 08:56:51 am
This week's tooled entry:


The prior assumption is that this is tooled, if only by association with the very many badly tooled coins coming from this seller currently.

However if I'd seen it elsewhere it would have passed me (as an expert in the series) at an initial glance because the prow design and lettering is correct in every detail for this issue, which compared with the really terrible tooled coins coming out of this seller at present does suggest the original coin was not bad to begin with. But note:
- where the "X" is on the side of the ship has not been tooled out
- where the all-seeing eye us on the side of the ship has not been tooled out
The 2011 engraver did not tool out these details presumably because he did not know what he was supposed to be tooling. Where you see the X and the eye shows the level of detail on the original. Much much less than on the tooled coin.

No bronzes, unless with untouched hard patina and clear strike effects and lustre, are now to be trusted from this source (which is of course the same source mentioned by andreas in his posting about tooled Greek bronzes). One source.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on December 06, 2011, 09:00:19 am
Maybe the source for the Lanz auction is the same that Peus had:

http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewsale&sid=476&cid=18606&pg=2&search=&s=b


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on December 06, 2011, 09:13:24 am
Maybe the source for the Lanz auction is the same that Peus had:

http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewsale&sid=476&cid=18606&pg=2&search=&s=b

I'm sure it is.

The good thing is that knowledgeable people can tell these are tooled coins. Some of the Republican bronzes have been of such incredibly bad style that they amount to pure inventions.

The bad thing is that less knowledgeable people are hurt by such sales from a previously reputable name, specially where tooling is not specifically mentioned.

The worst thing is that some day these currently-incompetent toolers may acquire the skills to know what they are supposed to be making.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on December 06, 2011, 09:37:58 am
It's just hearsay but apparently whoever's responsible at Peus didn't know they were tooled. Of course it's just as bad in a different way since it is really obvious that they are tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: mwilson603 on December 06, 2011, 12:41:34 pm
Just out of interest, and I know that we are not strictly speaking discussing fakes, but why hasn't Lanz been nominated for the NFSL yet?  Surely anything this badly tooled has got to qualify them?
regards
Mark


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on December 06, 2011, 02:23:48 pm
Just out of interest, and I know that we are not strictly speaking discussing fakes, but why hasn't he been nominated for the NFSL yet?  Surely anything this badly tooled has got to qualify them?
regards
Mark

The dealer has a many-decade-long positive reputation and is an expert and respected numismatist who is known for selling good quality always-genuine coins and to reacting immediately and positively to any issue with a purchaser. It appears he is now selling a group of genuine but tooled coins. I think this is crazy but not malevolent. In the related ebay sales he has generally described the coins as tooled. There is also a grey area of coins which seem to be lightly tooled but not marked as such, and it appears the other dealer mentioned on this thread is selling similar pieces. Remember the criterion for NFSL is that there be unquestionable and deliberate deception. I'm really sure the dealer in this case has tried to point out where coins were tooled and may have overlooked others. No deliberate deception. In the case of the coin mentioned by Gengis Jon it requires a degree of expertise in the particular series to note the tooling so it is not blatent. None of us like these coins. We are all talking and complaining about them, and not just on Forvm. In my own posts I'm trying to highlight the issue. But I have the impression that the dealer is trying to be transparent by noting heavily tooled coins as tooled. Although I think he is completely mistaken to offer such coins for sale, allied with his long time positive reputation it would be inappropriate to regard him as notorious anything. Just mistaken. Sometimes judgment calls have to take into account longer term reputation issues beyond a few coins for sale.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on December 06, 2011, 02:36:46 pm
Like with so many other dealers it is an inherited reputation that is eroding quickly. Grades are exaggerated and manipulation played down, first on Ebay, later in the proper auctions. On Ebay it is perfectly normal to find coins there described as 'lightly smoothed' that are heavily tooled and that is intentional. Of course it would open a can of worms to nominate sellers like this for the NFSL. The best solution is to stay informed, keep your eyes open and don't blindly trust in a seller's 'reputation' or knowledge. More than a few relatively well-known internet-based sellers e.g. just copy coin descriptions and reference numbers from the web, like most new collectors do.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on December 06, 2011, 02:43:11 pm
Like with so many other dealers it is an inherited reputation that is eroding quickly. Grades are exaggerated and manipulation played down, first on Ebay, later in the proper auctions. On Ebay it is perfectly normal to find coins there described as 'lightly smoothed' that are heavily tooled and that is intentional. Of course it would open a can of worms to nominate sellers like this for the NFSL. The best solution is to stay informed, keep your eyes open and don't blindly trust in a seller's 'reputation' or knowledge. More than a few relatively well-known internet-based sellers e.g. just copy coin descriptions and reference numbers from the web, like most new collectors do.

Andreas I'm assuming that on the German language forums more is perhaps being said, given that the coins seem to be originating in Germany. Good comments above.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on December 06, 2011, 03:19:22 pm
It has been said that they come from Italy and noted how close they are in style to aitnacoins' Ebay offers. I haven't studied them closely enough to be sure, because to be honest, it would be a very unpleasant task to do so.

Unfortunately, even though some of the other big firms note tooling whenever they notice it, the fact that these tooled coins are sold at all, sometimes in large numbers, may make them more acceptable to collectors and thus lead to more tooled coins. I don't know what kind of collector these people are that see a tooled coin, no incredible rarity that would not be available untooled, and bid anyway, often hundreds or thousands of dollars.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Dk0311USMC on December 06, 2011, 03:44:19 pm
Sometimes there seems to be a fine line with tooling.   I like to clean various uncleaned coins and sometimes if the coin has a soft patina, its hard not to accidentally tool it a little bit when removing dirt from grooves, and around details.  I don't think really any of my coins become obviously tooled but some examples on here are very borderline, possibly as a result of someone trying to clean dirt out of details, and others intentionally recreating their own details.  I wouldn't try to resell a coin that I feel ended up with artificial details. 

On some coins for my own collection I will wax them, and I have found on some that I will selectively wax areas of the bust for example, or other details to help them pop to the eye a bit more.  But like I said that is just something I do for my own collection sometimes. If it doesn't work out then I can just put an even coat across the whole coin or work on removing the wax.  An example of that is on my Pontius Pilate coin below.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-70456


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on December 06, 2011, 04:07:23 pm
It has been said that they come from Italy and noted how close they are in style to aitnacoins' Ebay offers. I haven't studied them closely enough to be sure, because to be honest, it would be a very unpleasant task to do so.

Unfortunately, even though some of the other big firms note tooling whenever they notice it, the fact that these tooled coins are sold at all, sometimes in large numbers, may make them more acceptable to collectors and thus lead to more tooled coins. I don't know what kind of collector these people are that see a tooled coin, no incredible rarity that would not be available untooled, and bid anyway, often hundreds or thousands of dollars.

There was also a huge number of tooled coins at a recent high-end Italian auction. I'm just amazed they passed ordinary inspection.

You are probably aware that I made a "big deal" about the huge number of tooled and badly altered coins used as illustrations in Rainer Albert's book on Republican coins (the most recent edition), and I also posted on German lists about that book. Some of the replies I received suggested that no one cares - readers who said they were happy to have a German language book even with some mistakes. Well, from recollection, about 75 of the illustrated coins were either forgeries or tooled. I think that made the book useless. A collection full of tooled coins is equally useless, because you no longer know which coins to trust.

The moral for the ordinary collector is: do NOT buy tooled coins. It completely destroys the credibility, interest of, and saleability of your collection, because for every 1 tooled coin someone sees, they will presume there are another 10 tooled coins hidden where they cannot detect the tooling.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: mwilson603 on December 06, 2011, 05:17:37 pm
The dealer has a many-decade-long positive reputation and is an expert and respected numismatist who is known for selling good quality always-genuine coins and to reacting immediately and positively to any issue with a purchaser. It appears he is now selling a group of genuine but tooled coins. I think this is crazy but not malevolent. In the related ebay sales he has generally described the coins as tooled. There is also a grey area of coins which seem to be lightly tooled but not marked as such, and it appears the other dealer mentioned on this thread is selling similar pieces. Remember the criterion for NFSL is that there be unquestionable and deliberate deception.

In many different markets, i.e. not just coins, once a business starts moving down the road of cutting corners, and maybe misleading customers, it is rare that they return to the right path.  Unfortunately profit margins mean more to some people than integrity.  I am not categorically saying that this is the case in this instance, however I have heard this name mentioned a few times recently, and unfortunately usually in association with bad practices.  If they are unwittingly doing it then surely they should never had earned such a great reputation if their knowledge is so poor, and if they are doing it malevolently then they deserve to be on the list.
Obviously, if they revert back to the style of business that gained them this supposed superb reputation, then of course leeway should be given, and the question marks disappear.  However, surely if they continue with these practices, then at some point the end result of what they are doing has to be taken into account, and "collectors" who know no different should be able to find a clear warning about them.
regards
Mark


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on December 06, 2011, 08:42:00 pm
Peddling large numbers of tooled coins... but another example of poor judgement which the formerly respected principal of this auction house seems to be exhibiting with increasing frequency in old age. The profit imperative now appears to override sound judgement  and reputation is on a slippery slope as a result.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on December 07, 2011, 04:19:06 am
The business model is that the only employee is a secretary and coins on Ebay are described and listed by a number of different people who receive a percentage of their coins' price realized. It doesn't pay to be too honest and it isn't really necessary to own or consult real books when you can just copy and paste from the internet. Some are better (as in knowledgable and honest) at it than others though I suspect these are not necessarily the most successful.

I'm not sure who does the real auctions but it's probably one or more of the same people. Sadly, collectors who are informed about these things seem to be in a minority and if you're not online and can't see these things for yourself there is no reason to ever doubt the integrity of these auction houses with good names and a long history. The fact that the people who earned the reputations that these houses are using up are spinning in their graves apparently has no effect on their descendents or in some cases on the people who bought the name.



Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on December 23, 2011, 04:35:19 pm
Merry Christmas from a Medusa that suddenly got uglier...



Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on January 01, 2012, 10:14:34 am
Just plain fugly...



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on January 01, 2012, 10:29:24 am
Just plain fugly...

Yes. I'm guessing this is a Lanz tooling. They seem to process them through a mince-meat machine, producing a recognizably fugly style. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fugly


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on January 01, 2012, 05:30:08 pm
Just plain fugly...

Yes. I'm guessing this is a Lanz tooling. They seem to process them through a mince-meat machine, producing a recognizably fugly style. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fugly

I just wonder who buys this crap? Yet another of life's mysteries!

There must be demand, because the garbage keeps on coming, but who and where are the buyers who must exist in significant numbers to support the machine that churns out these tooled monstrosities? Imagine what the rest of their life must be like if they think this garbage is good stuff!  I know it sounds arrogant (and feel free to call me such), but my mind boggles at the thought of such indiscriminate taste and and an intellect that believes this stuff is in any sense authentic.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Will Hooton on January 02, 2012, 02:42:46 am
I just wonder who buys this crap? Yet another of life's mysteries!

There must be demand, because the garbage keeps on coming, but who and where are the buyers who must exist in significant numbers to support the machine that churns out these tooled monstrosities? Imagine what the rest of their life must be like if they think this garbage is good stuff!  I know it sounds arrogant (and feel free to call me such), but my mind boggles at the thought of such indiscriminate taste and and an intellect that believes this stuff is in any sense authentic.


No Lloyd, you are not arrogant. I don't think it's a question of taste in general but because most people don't know any better. Perhaps they don't see the tooling. There are so many people with little understanding of their own hobby.  This is why FORVM is an absolute blessing.

Then again there are people who don't mind the tooling, and dealers that cater to them buy selling tooled coins with the declaration that they are tooled. And some are still quite expensive. Why would people knowingly buy a tooled coin? I don't get that. A tooled coin would never have a place in my collection. I might use it to see how many skips I could get out of it over the surface of a lake.......


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Reid Goldsborough on January 02, 2012, 08:20:53 am
This to me isn't all that difficult to understand. These particular coins are simply targeted toward relative newcomers, those without the experience and sophistication to know better. That creating these and selling them as they are is a violation of the norms of the numismatic community doesn't seem to matter to those creating and selling them. It's all about, well, money.

Doing this is no different in kind than making up stories about a coin's history or provenance, which at least one well-known dealer, that I know of anyway, has a reputation for doing. I once again feel obligated, for the sake of fairness and accuracy, to say that I don't believe that all or most or even many ancient coin dealers engage in such behavior. Just that some do. From this perspective, spotting such actions ... and gaining the knowledge to do so ... is part of the fun of being a collector.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on January 05, 2012, 07:24:55 am
Another assault and battery perpetrated upon an ancient coin.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on January 05, 2012, 07:35:11 am
For these reasons the word 'lanzed' has been suggested to describe these coins.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: byzcoll on January 05, 2012, 11:27:15 am
Hi,

I have bought a few Byzantine AE pieces from that seller via Fbay, none of themwere tooled. He has definitely failed to label a number tool-destroyed coins as such, but normally the coins are labelled as tooled and smoothed.

It is just amazing that these essentially destroyed pieces, which just represent a synthetic fantasy encarved on an ancient lump of bronze, are fetching such high sums. Obviously a lot of people like these pieces which cannot even be called coins anymore OR a lot of people try to resell them fraudulently. The latter possibility represents the real problem for me.

The other problem is that the number of badly tooled coins which are up for auction at a given auction house without the tooling being declared probably gives a clue to the number of unrecognized fake coins in these auctions.

byzcoll


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on January 09, 2012, 07:19:13 am
Flattened and gouged, er, smoothed and tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Randygeki(h2) on January 09, 2012, 10:39:50 am
 :(


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on January 17, 2012, 03:45:56 pm
Cartoon and an untooled comparison example below.

The cartoon is from the usual source (the nice example is my coin). Quite apart from the wonderful nose (rather looks like the dwarves in Snow White) the managed to alter the shape of the prowstem to something that never would appear on a Republican coin.

Condition described as Very Fine, tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on January 17, 2012, 04:52:51 pm
Condition described as Very Fine, tooled.
.... which is I guess better than describing it as very finely tooled!


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on January 18, 2012, 06:49:38 am
Ugh.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on February 05, 2012, 03:47:51 pm
A centerpiece for any advanced collection...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on February 05, 2012, 04:00:54 pm
Awful.  Another coin ruined.


Title: Unknown round metal modern sculpture, perhaps a large button.
Post by: Andrew McCabe on February 08, 2012, 02:58:48 pm
I have no idea what this is supposed to be. It does not resemble any real coin type.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on February 08, 2012, 03:20:47 pm
There will still be idiots fighting for it. I really wouldn't mind it so much if most of these hadn't started out as genuine ancient coins.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on February 08, 2012, 05:54:51 pm
I have no idea what this is supposed to be. It does not resemble any real coin type.

This one is particularly terrible.  Those faces are awful.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on February 09, 2012, 12:22:24 am
I have no idea what this is supposed to be. It does not resemble any real coin type.

This one is particularly terrible.  Those faces are awful.

The reverse is also an invented non-existent type. No such shape of prow has ever been engraved by a Roman engraver, and no anonymous (no symbol) Republican As exists with a flat-topped prow and the denomination mark before the prow. It is a complete invention.

On another list someone shared pictures of four other recent bronzes (we all know which German firm these objects come from). Two were essentially genuine - limited cleaning, perhaps some minor strengthening, but not so awful, and in near VF condition. Two were charactertures like this - complete inventions and no longer Roman coins, and totally worthless. All four sold at about the same price (100 to 150 euros or so).

This tells me that
(a) ignorant collectors are being dreadfully deceived when they bid for these objects. They don't realise that some are carved lumps of bronzes and others are coins. They can't tell the difference
(b) wise collectors have an opportunity to still find some real coins between the cracks, but they need to look very carefully for signs of tooling
(c) if you are not sure whether you are a wise or ignorant collector then you should not be bidding

Oddly, this is a good basis for behaviour for eBay in general.


Title: Re: Unknown round metal modern sculpture, perhaps a large button.
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on February 09, 2012, 12:48:15 am
I have no idea what this is supposed to be. It does not resemble any real coin type.

Truly a tragic piece!


This tells me that
(a) ignorant collectors are being dreadfully deceived when they bid for these objects.

Not quite true... rather it must be blind, ignorant collectors. But even for a reader of Braille, I don't think this one would feel right.

I guess it just comes down to the natural order of things... fools and their money being easily separated.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on February 09, 2012, 02:11:54 am
Most coins are described as tooled. Frequently the people listing them just can't tell, many of them know nothing about coins. They do usually change the description when you tell them. The problem is that now this seller (or rather this selling platform within Ebay) is causing such tooled coins to be produced. If they really cared about and respected ancient coins they would stop, think and change something but obviously they don't.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on February 09, 2012, 06:11:03 am
I wonder what caused such a change in the seller.   Went from decent dealer to purveyor of mangled money.  Years ago I bought a few coins (from them) that I'm quite happy with.  But none in the last several years due to both philosophic and resulting trust issues.  The namesake is still there so it can't be a change of management.  Maybe its purely economics, prices achieved exceed the cost of mutilation.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on February 09, 2012, 06:29:51 am
It's now just a sales platform within Ebay. You pay a percentage for the privilege to sell under the account. I don't know who is responsible for the floor auctions but the last one was pretty much the same as the Ebay offers. Slightly less obviously tooled but still very obvious to any advanced collector.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on February 11, 2012, 11:57:14 am
Just came across this one:

http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=463465

Horrible!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Optimo Principi on February 15, 2012, 01:32:39 pm
Described as "lightly tooled". Yuck.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: mwilson603 on February 15, 2012, 03:31:52 pm
Described as "lightly tooled". Yuck.
I think it was "lightly tooled"......with a pneumatic road drill!   ;D
regards
Mark


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Randygeki(h2) on February 15, 2012, 05:22:58 pm
Described as "lightly tooled". Yuck.

LOL Thats awesome


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on February 22, 2012, 06:11:00 am
A fearsome foursome for all to enjoy:



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Optimo Principi on February 22, 2012, 09:21:02 am
There certainly seems to be a tooling production line of the Janus faces and Medusa Heads running somewhere! All thoroughly horrid.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on February 22, 2012, 12:46:06 pm
The tooled Janus types may have been tooled into complete slugs or even completely modern blank cast flans.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Gert on February 22, 2012, 01:12:02 pm
I think that a change in vocabulary is in order. These coins should be named 'modern fake' in stead of ´tooled´. Only the flans are authentic. How is this, method aside, any different than slugs overstruck with modern forged dies?
Regards
Gert



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on February 25, 2012, 04:23:56 pm
I think that a change in vocabulary is in order. These coins should be named 'modern fake' in stead of ´tooled´. Only the flans are authentic. How is this, method aside, any different than slugs overstruck with modern forged dies?

Agree. To consider them in any way authentic is certainly pushing the line between authenticity and fakery far too much towards the latter .  We have struck fakes, we have cast fakes, now we have tooled fakes.

Add them here.. http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/thumbnails.php?album=23


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on March 02, 2012, 05:16:24 am
This one is offered as "tooled, smoothed and repatinated" and is currently north of $400.   :-\



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Frans Diederik on March 02, 2012, 11:47:16 am
I have seen this engraver several times now and to the untrained eye the coins look nice, but areas that are worn flat, such as the arm, he cannot get sufficient rounding and that makes it bad tooling from two perspectives.... I suppose the coin was rather nice before he laid his tools on it.


Frans


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on March 02, 2012, 12:22:05 pm
I suppose the coin was rather nice before he laid his tools on it.

Unfortunately that often seems to be the case. Of the four RR asses cited by Ghengis Jon,

A fearsome foursome for all to enjoy:

the fourth of these had a quite nice (and actually untooled) and scarce reverse type - RRC 106/4 from Etruria with a club design. Had they left the coin alone, irrespective how bad the obverse was, it would have sold nicely on its reverse alone. Because they tooled and destroyed the obverse it's now worthless as a study object to anyone.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Frans Diederik on March 02, 2012, 01:18:03 pm
In our hobby ignorance is no bliss.......


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: marcvs_traianvs on March 02, 2012, 04:15:02 pm
This one is offered as "tooled, smoothed and repatinated" and is currently north of $400.   :-\



I like the addition of the "otherwise extremely fine".  No...the only reason that coin looks like that is that its been completely altered.  And CAPPADOCIA reverses are scarce enough that an unaltered coin will bring you money. Annoying to say the least.

But as long as people keep spending money for coins to be damaged, its going to keep happening.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on March 04, 2012, 06:36:33 am
Now currently north of 400 EURO with no end in sight.  I wish I had 'stupid money' that I could spend stupidly.

Trouble is, this kind of bidding will only encourage other toolers.  When ravaged coins command this kind of cash, I fear we'll see an influx of needlessly tooled coins.  <sigh>


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on March 06, 2012, 05:24:08 am
Like this one, currently in excess of €500.  Why can't people leave well enough alone?  I doubt that collectors are saying "oooo, I'll give you only half as much because its not tooled, smoothed and re-patinated."



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Randygeki(h2) on March 06, 2012, 07:53:53 am
You should make that offer to one of these sellers :)


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on March 17, 2012, 04:13:22 am
speechless


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Frans Diederik on March 17, 2012, 10:45:11 am
I m h o definite proof that Neanderthal not only knew the use of money, but also that they still exist :-\


Frans


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Optimo Principi on March 17, 2012, 10:56:12 am
speechless

It's like they're not even trying anymore!



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on March 17, 2012, 11:02:38 am
Or maybe it is a giant operation and they use the better pieces for the floor auctions and the junk for Ebay. Most Greek bronzes in the Lanz floor auctions are tooled nowadays.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: nogoodnicksleft on March 17, 2012, 12:55:50 pm
Here is one from which was up on the bay for auction last December. I'm ashamed to say i did bid on it but almost immediately regreted my decision once I looked at it again and noticed how horrible the tooling on the portrait was. When I checked later in the day, I was for the first time (and hopefully last) very happy to have been outbid by somebody else. It is a shame as this is the only Gallienus coin of this type of Pegasus that I've seen up for sale since I've been actively looking.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on March 17, 2012, 01:59:15 pm
Tooling can often produce 'one of a kind' type of coins.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on March 17, 2012, 08:44:28 pm
Tooling can often produce 'one of a kind' type of coins.

Not my Sileraioi bronze (avatar) I hope!

Nick


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on April 02, 2012, 06:45:49 am
Three more "enhanced" coins. 



Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on April 10, 2012, 06:17:42 am
This one is impressive.  Looks like it was being cleaned with a pick axe and the 'cleaner' decided to add a little detail.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on April 11, 2012, 05:48:01 am
I was reading through this thread last night and I saw Andreas had mentioned a previous sale had many tooled Greek coins.  Then I looked into the seller's tooled coins further and read some interesting comments of his on a yahoo discussion group thread.  Then I started to freak out a bit.  I have a coin from the aforementioned sale and I'm wondering if it is tooled.  It happens to be my favorite piece and I will be totally devastated if it is, but I'm posting it anyway.

I must say, the lighting makes the coin look slightly sharper than it is.  However, compared to other examples, the obverse of mine is much sharper than any I have seen.

Here is the attribution:

Tetras, 357 - 339, Überprägung einer Bronze-Litra Dionysios' I. (vgl. Calciati II S. 86 N 41). S-ILEPAIW-N(retrograd). Androkephaler Stier nach rechts. Rs: Nackter Krieger mit Schild und Speer nach rechts stürmend, im Feld SIL-A. Campana, CNAI "; Calciati III S. 301 Em. 2/9. 6,86g. Fast vorzüglich/sehr schön.

Perhaps posting it under the "Badly Tooled Coins" thread is not appropriate but I figured you all wouldn't mind.

As always, thanks,

Nick


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on April 11, 2012, 06:26:55 am
Tetras, 357 - 339, Überprägung einer Bronze-Litra Dionysios' I. (vgl. Calciati II S. 86 N 41). S-ILEPAIW-N(retrograd). Androkephaler Stier nach rechts. Rs: Nackter Krieger mit Schild und Speer nach rechts stürmend, im Feld SIL-A. Campana, CNAI "; Calciati III S. 301 Em. 2/9. 6,86g. Fast vorzüglich/sehr schön.

Nick

A carefully balanced reply is in order. A few things to consider

1. it is not obviously tooled (as compared with the dozens linked to in the other forum thread you mention). There are a few specific points I wonder about such as the shadow above the reverse arm, and the smooth area with sharp edges associated with the left hand leg on the obverse, and the letter E, but it doesn't jump out

2. there is a very obvious discrepancy between the degree of wear and corrosion and surfaces on the reverse, and that on the obverse, leading to the possibility that one side has been improved and smoothed. Alternately it might be the result of a very damaged reverse die and/or preferential corrosion from whatever place the coin has been lying these past 2,000 years

3. any association with that seller and that sale is clearly bad and there will always be an element of guilt by association even if the coin looks fine

4. it seems to be a rare type, at least I could not locate more than one other which is shown below.
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=532662
 It would be worthwhile to locate others because a comparison with details would show where differences may have been created by tooling. Look at the two examples carefully. There is no obvious addition of different details on the lower coin - which seems to be from the same dies - and the outer circle (a key determinant) is of the same shape. But I would guess that the left-hand leg area of the bull has been improved, and the circle better defined at the outside. This might be the result of vigorous cleaning of course. The obv/rev discrepancy is clearer seeing the two coins but without any definite flags. The lettering has not moved position (another key determinant).

Overall I think your coin might count as smoothed in places - which might be considered the result of careful but vigorous cleaning - but not evidently tooled.

Still, I would be very wary of buying more bronzes from such a source unless you are prepared and experienced to do the analysis above before bidding on each piece.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on April 11, 2012, 07:04:56 am
Thanks for the detailed reply, Andrew, it is very much appreciated.  I can live with some smoothing and I’m glad it is at least not noticeably tooled to better eyes than mine.

I was most worried about the facial details (beard and eye) because, of the handful of examples I have seen, none come close.  I hadn’t even noticed the leg and arm you mentioned.  But examining others it looks like mine has simply a very nice obverse strike and you seem to have found one I didn't which has a comparable obverse.  I know that on many of the man-faced bull types (bronze and silver) the obverse is almost always in far better condition than the reverse (or vice versa, whichever side has the MFB).  Perhaps the engravers took better care of that side or re-engraved it more often because it is a wide-spread phenomenon.

One thing that has me suspicious is that no one bid on the coin, yet others in noticeably worse condition have sold for about as much, and one I think even more (within the last three or four years anyway).  I hadn’t bought from him before and had no idea of the tooling issue until I started reading this thread.  I knew it was a well respected firm so I didn’t even consider it at the time.  I’m not sure if I would have bought the coin given the emerging reputation had I known it then, but now I’m glad I did because like I said, I can live with some smoothing and it is my absolute favorite piece.

In the future I will be extremely careful when dealing with this firm.  It’s a shame to have to worry so much because man-faced bull types are my favorite and he seems to have the most on the market throughout the year.

Thanks again,

Nick


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on April 11, 2012, 07:58:38 am
I'm really not sure what I'm looking at here. Modern? Tooled ancient silver? Ideas pleaase.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on April 11, 2012, 08:07:41 am
It does have a modern look, to me anyway.

Nick


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Dk0311USMC on April 13, 2012, 04:20:39 pm
This one is impressive.  Looks like it was being cleaned with a pick axe and the 'cleaner' decided to add a little detail.



lol I like the added headband!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on April 13, 2012, 09:38:38 pm
It does have a modern look, to me anyway.

Nick

You are right Nick. It's a modern forgery with some reverse tooling / damage.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on April 17, 2012, 12:36:47 am
Oh my Zeus! ....coming to a German auction in early May.   The Germans really seem to be working hard to produce this stuff and now appear to be moving into silver, having honed their artistic "Dremel skills" on bronze slugs. It not much consolation that in this case they left the reverse well enough alone having destroyed the obverse.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on April 30, 2012, 06:23:38 am
These eyes don't lie...tooled!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on May 01, 2012, 10:21:44 pm
I've long wondered who buys the Lanz toolies, and what would happen when the owners try to sell again. Here's such a coin, relisted by a different seller, one who is so proud of its newly carved detail that he enlarges the photo so we can all see the chisel marks!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Falderal on May 09, 2012, 09:06:50 pm
I would like to put my two cents in on this thread and coin a term for some of the brutally tooled slugs seen on page 16: Hobo bronzes.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on May 10, 2012, 09:03:02 am
Hi All!

Just stumbled across this one on *bay.

The obverse hair, at least, seems to be tooled, right?

Seller, who is in Budapest, "guaranteed to the original."

mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on May 10, 2012, 09:23:38 am
Hi All!

Just stumbled across this one on *bay.

The obverse hair, at least, seems to be tooled, right?

Seller, who is in Budapest, "guaranteed to the original."

mz

The prior tooly on this thread, posted by me, was from the Budapest seller but originated in a ebay sale of a notorious German seller of tooled coins i.e. the usual source. This might also be an ex-L coin. Not as terrible as some of course

PS I must add that the reselling of tooled coins sold by that previously respected German seller can hardly be a cause for us to complain about the Budapest reseller. This is the sort of havoc that trickles down to the lower levels of the coin market when a member of the Intenational Assoication of Professional Numismatists sells truckloads of badly tooled coins. The consequences will follow for years to come.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: HELEN S on May 18, 2012, 11:43:58 am
 

 i find this thread enthralling i am trying to look at the problems, your descriptions and realize that you all must have a lifetime of knowledge WOW what a vast amount of problems happening out there in the coin world thankyou for your great work  i hope everyone on the site appreciates you     


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on May 29, 2012, 05:59:00 am
Latest abomination:



Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on June 13, 2012, 06:05:10 am
Interesting re-patination too.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on June 13, 2012, 06:30:09 am
I don't see any tooling on this last bronze, however.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Rich Beale on June 13, 2012, 07:49:24 am
Or repatination. Patina looks completely original.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on June 13, 2012, 08:20:00 am
Bottom right of the reverse might have been smoothed a little, unless the small markings I see are just the coin's original surface. 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on June 13, 2012, 08:31:38 am
You should have chosen this one (condition "almost very fine"). I need not mention the seller.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on June 19, 2012, 02:14:56 pm
Never seen a thing like this... so hard tooled to become an incuse!!  :o


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: quisquam on June 19, 2012, 02:23:57 pm
I can see no tooling, it's just the lighting from the bottom. If you turn the picture upside down the reverse doesn't look incuse anymore.

Stefan


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on June 26, 2012, 06:31:33 am
Looks like the next class called Intro To Tooling And Smoothing has begun at you-know-where.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on June 26, 2012, 11:25:22 am
I can see no tooling, it's just the lighting from the bottom. If you turn the picture upside down the reverse doesn't look incuse anymore.

Stefan

You are right, the incuse look is only for the light, sorry for the mistake. Anyway the coin is tooled, as the ebay seller declares in the description.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 03, 2012, 06:18:59 am
As one who appreciates critter coins, this one makes me weep.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on July 03, 2012, 06:29:15 am
As one who appreciates critter coins, this one makes me weep.



Nice job! Indeed all three critters on the coin seem to have had cosmetic surgery / face lifts / upholstery enhancements / boob-jobs / whatever the current parlance is.

I've now got beyond these michael-jackson quality alterations. They exist, and they are obvious. My concern is now at the next level up. Minor nip-and-tuck's so to speak. An 80 year old face converted to look not a day older than 70. "Gentle smoothing" that hides outright but not blatant alteration.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 10, 2012, 06:45:30 am
I've resisted posting those types because unless you've got the coin in hand, you can't be absolutely sure.  The conversation can drift from "why do you think that?" to "whats your qualifications?" and I don't want that sort of thing.  I enjoy the light-hearted-obvious-to-everyone examples that can be properly mocked and ridiculed.  Bringing others up to the level of which you speak is a benefit of this thread.  Perhaps a thread titled 'Lightly Tooled Coins' should be started.

Everyone's heard of "flame red" hair...



Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 11, 2012, 05:59:02 am
Andrew - How about this one?  The obverse looks fine to me, but look at the owl's beak (and maybe the eyes).  To me, they might have been worked over.  Can't be sure though.  I wouldn't/couldn't condemn the coin without looking at those features under magnification.  I like the coin, but it comes from my favorite Tool & Die shop.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on July 11, 2012, 06:09:42 am
Andrew - How about this one?  The obverse looks fine to me, but look at the owl's beak (and maybe the eyes).  To me, they might have been worked over.  Can't be sure though.  I wouldn't/couldn't condemn the coin without looking at those features under magnification.  I like the coin, but it comes from my favorite Tool & Die shop.

Looks not tooled to me. The surfaces are untouched, the lettering, and the transitions from surfaces to devices look ok. Were it tooled, one or all of these would not be ok. I can't comment on the design aspects, I don't know the type, so I don't know if you see alterations to device details that I would miss.


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 11, 2012, 07:07:39 am
The cut seems a little deep on the beak (to me) and the eyes are not consistant with wear on other parts of the coin's relief.  Everything else looks fine.  I'd want to handle the coin first if I were intending to buy it.  Partly because of seller - if it were offered by our host here, I'd have no hestitation.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on July 11, 2012, 08:45:10 am
...if it were offered by our host here, I'd have no hestitation.

I appreciate the confidence.  However, if this coin is tooled (but I don't think it is), something that subtle could easily slip by me unnoticed.  Its always a good idea to take a good look at coins when you receive them because dealers are human. 


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on July 17, 2012, 08:47:35 am
No comment needed.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on July 17, 2012, 10:05:07 am
Not tooled in my opinion, just struck from a worn die.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on August 11, 2012, 03:25:51 pm
A Winter Olympics special: Victory on Skis:


Title: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 22, 2012, 05:33:26 am
This one is comical.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on August 22, 2012, 06:30:18 am
I see a doublestruck nose and flat-struck hair on this one, and deposits removed from the whole surface, but no tooling!

Can you show us another specimen of the same coin for comparison and point out where you see tooling?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on August 22, 2012, 07:39:01 am
I see a doublestruck nose and flat-struck hair on this one, and deposits removed from the whole surface, but no tooling!

I agree it looks like a flat strike hence there is detail at lower reliefs and flat areas at high relief. This coin is less worn than it looks at first glance.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Dk0311USMC on August 22, 2012, 09:13:55 am
Not a coin but a jaw dropping restoration attempt...

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/weird-wide-web/elderly-woman-ruins-ecce-homo-painting-attempting-restore


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on August 22, 2012, 10:43:16 am
She turned it into modern art!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: quisquam on August 22, 2012, 02:39:04 pm
 Completely worked over, otherwise very fine.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on August 22, 2012, 03:08:14 pm
Nah, she's just brought out the family resemblance to the monkeys.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on August 22, 2012, 06:57:30 pm
This one is comical.

I see that the seller himself calls this coin "tooled" and sometimes does sell tooled bronzes, but I think he is wrong in this case, though the reverse does look a little scratched and scraped (but not tooled).


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on August 23, 2012, 10:14:40 am
I agree with your observations on the reverse, which is why I did not post an image.  I took the seller to his word, given that he has bragged in correspondence with me on the 'skill' of his workshop.  Here's another example, but not from him.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on August 23, 2012, 11:42:57 am
I agree with your observations on the reverse, which is why I did not post an image.  

I recognise that you had a reason for not disclosing the reverse. Still, there is merit in the Forvm guidance, to always post both sides of a coin, and to disclose all information about the coin (but not about the seller) in advance (in this case, that the coin was actually described as tooled). It makes for more meaningful comments and reduces the work of those commenting!   :)

I see no tooling on either side.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on August 24, 2012, 12:35:40 am
Not a coin but a jaw dropping restoration attempt...

Could have been worse......


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: David Atherton on August 24, 2012, 06:02:59 pm
Not a coin but a jaw dropping restoration attempt...

Could have been worse......

I was wondering when the memes of this "Beast Jesus" would start showing up. Hilarious!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Dino on September 05, 2012, 05:52:53 am
Nero Claudius Drusus Sestertius (36mm, 29.64 g).   Described as "tooled and heavily smoothed." 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Dino on September 05, 2012, 05:56:33 am
Agrippina Senior Sestertius (36mm, 26.65 g). Described as "smoothing and light tooling, areas of fill."


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Dino on September 05, 2012, 06:05:30 am
I generally collect Greek coins, so I don't have much experience in sestertii, however, it appears that he tooling and smoothing on the above two coins does not appear to chilled the bidding much.

I know we don't talk prices here, but by what percentage do you think the price of a coin that has been lightly tooled, smoothed and filled, like the Agrippina above generally be affected by such treatment?  This one appears to be well done.  Would it sell for more than a cleaned but untouched coin that is worn and pitted?

And if so, is that what's leading to so many coins being tooled, smoothed and/or filled?

It also appears that smoothing is generally accepted now as part of the "restoration/conservation process"  Yes?  No?

Is tooling getting to the point where it is acceptable?

What about filling, like the second coin?  It seems to me that taking a pitted coin and filling it with whaterever people fill these with, goes above and beyond what should be acceptable?

How easy is it to detect filling if it's not disclosed?

The current auction house is disclosing, but I always wonder whether the person who sells the coin next will disclose.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on September 05, 2012, 10:44:43 am
I generally collect Greek coins, so I don't have much experience in sestertii, however, it appears that he tooling and smoothing on the above two coins does not appear to chilled the bidding much.

I know we don't talk prices here, but by what percentage do you think the price of a coin that has been lightly tooled, smoothed and filled, like the Agrippina above generally be affected by such treatment?  This one appears to be well done.  Would it sell for more than a cleaned but untouched coin that is worn and pitted?

And if so, is that what's leading to so many coins being tooled, smoothed and/or filled?

It also appears that smoothing is generally accepted now as part of the "restoration/conservation process"  Yes?  No?

Is tooling getting to the point where it is acceptable?

What about filling, like the second coin?  It seems to me that taking a pitted coin and filling it with whaterever people fill these with, goes above and beyond what should be acceptable?

How easy is it to detect filling if it's not disclosed?

The current auction house is disclosing, but I always wonder whether the person who sells the coin next will disclose.

Complex questions.

Tooling, by which I mean non-accidental metal removal, reduces the inherent value of a coin. It becomes a less valuable historical document. This is axiomatic. It may not reduce its market price, in fact it may increase it due to competition between naive collectors. However, sometime in the future when the purchaser of a tooled coin sells, the price may well revert to normal, i.e. a lower price than would be fetched by a well-cleaned but not tooled example. (And this is the comparison that should be made - against another expertly cleaned example, not against an uncleaned coin)

If smoothing deliberately removes metal, it is tooling. The same applies. Sometime down the road, a serious collector or student will place a lower commercial / historical value on a coin that has had metal removed.

I can assure you, from speaking to other serious collectors and numismatists, that if there is a shadow of uncertainty over a coin, as regards tooling or smoothing, then they hold back on their bids. There was a classic example in a recent high-end sale involving two rare sestertii. That which had obviously untouched surfaces fetched a much higher premium over estimate than the coin over which there had been some debate. I handled both coins, neither looked to be tooled though one was more evidently cleaned to the limit and perhaps rubbed a little vigorously in the process, but no evidence of any attempt to alter or improve the coin. However, although not my area, I concluded that the uncertainty alone on the 'smoother' coin would cause me to hold back on bidding, and correspondingly that I would place a high (commercial as well as academic) value on the clearly untouched - save for cleaning - surfaces on the other coin.

Expert cleaning and restoration, that is sensitive to potential risks of a coin appearing tooled or smoothed, increases the value of a coin and also its price. It's value as an historical document is increased because the document has not been damaged, but has been conserved in a much clearer condition.

If what is removed by smoothing is just a combination of non-patina deposits and some patina, and there was no deliberate attempt to remove metal, and the end results is, cosmetically, a coin which could have arrived in this condition by wholly natural means, then it counts as cleaning. However real experts will know whether the coin has passed the "wholly natural means" tipping point, and once you go too far you can't reverse.

So, hold off on the dental tools. Minor surface deposits or corrosion effects, perhaps slightly obscuring a few letters and/or making the field less uniform, can act as a form of guarantee of no-mechanical alteration, and hence increase the coins value (NB of course some crudely tooled coins are repatinated to try and create this effect but really fool no-one).

Filling: this is not removing anything from a coin, and if clearly marked and if 100% reversible, has no long term implication. It's a cosmetic matter, a commercial matter, and a matter of disclosure. It is a market matter. It has no relation to a coin's numismatic value. However if an expert thinks, from its surfaces, that a coin has been filled then he will of course wonder what is real and what is not real, and will hold off bidding, and may exclude the coin from studies.

Disclosure: if properly disclosed and accurate, then remarks on tooling, polishing, smoothing, filling etc. can only increase the respect a coin is held in by those with expertise, to the extent that it provides assurance that the coin has been closely looked at and that there are no other issues.

Market value of tooled, smoothed, polished, filled coins, when disclosed properly: who cares? It's not important in any real sense except to the purchaser, who has bought a coin recognising these defects. If two naive collectors choose to place a higher value on an altered coin than an unaltered coin, well, it happens, and one of them will win the coin but may be upset in future years when others don't value the alterations as much.

Market value of such alterations when not disclosed? If the alteration is evident, then it's just a matter of choosing whether to buy from such companies. It's a market issue (choose your marketplace well).

If there are borderline judgement between well-cleaned and smoothed, then the market will take care of it, as in the above cited two sestertii example. It's a market issue (how you value one coin)

Finally, remember that price often has no relation to value.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on September 05, 2012, 09:54:38 pm
Quaintly described as "Good Fine, details strengthened".  This leads me to ask as to when does "strengthening" become tooling?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on September 06, 2012, 06:18:18 am
Quaintly described as "Good Fine, details strengthened".  This leads me to ask as to when does "strengthening" become tooling?

There is nothing wrong with using the word strengthened rather than tooled. It is a term that is often used.

'Tooled' gives the method. 'Strengthened' gives the result. They are totally equivalent and can be read as such.

I guess my point is that a dealer who uses the word 'strengthened' has fully and correctly disclosed. Such dealers deserve praise for their disclosure.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on September 06, 2012, 08:36:25 am
I think there's a difference between strengthening and tooling. 'Strengthened' may be used if only the contours are sharpened but nothing really altered. It's not fundamentally different from tooling but there is a difference in intensity. Of course often it is used as a eupehmism to pretend total honesty while at the same time trying to limit the damage.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on September 06, 2012, 08:47:21 am
Andrew,

I agree with Andreas: the two words are not equivalent.

"Tooling" includes completely inventing and adding letters and details that were never there.

"Strengthening" means removing metal from around genuine details of the type, in order to make them sharper and clearer.

"Strengthening" restricts itself to genuine details of the type; "tooling" does not.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: benito on September 06, 2012, 10:07:30 am
Andrew,

I agree with Andreas: the two words are not equivalent.

"Tooling" includes completely inventing and adding letters and details that were never there.

"Strengthening" means removing metal from around genuine details of the type, in order to make them sharper and clearer.

"Strengthening" restricts itself to genuine details of the type; "tooling" does not.

Beg to disagree. In your second acception strengthening is the same as tooling. Question of semantics. The word tooling has become a bad word in numismatics.
Something like calling a prostitute an hetaera.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on September 06, 2012, 11:20:47 am
Andrew,

I agree with Andreas: the two words are not equivalent.

"Tooling" includes completely inventing and adding letters and details that were never there.

"Strengthening" means removing metal from around genuine details of the type, in order to make them sharper and clearer.

"Strengthening" restricts itself to genuine details of the type; "tooling" does not.

Beg to disagree. In your second acception strengthening is the same as tooling. Question of semantics. The word tooling has become a bad word in numismatics.
Something like calling a prostitute an hetaera.

It's all semantics. After all, hardly anyone would deliberately tool a coin so as NOT to look like its original type, and if they did do that, then it is not tooling but forgery. All ordinary tooling (leaving aside forgery) has as its aim making "genuine" aspects of the design appear clear and sharp. That they often fail, and as a result change the design, is almost always by accident. If deliberate, then it is sheer forgery.

But perhaps BECAUSE of this association with forgery, I think the better classes of tooling can be called "strengthening" without embarrassment.

By Andrea's definition the below (top) counts as tooled

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3340/3538850670_eaca4ea3b9.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ahala_rome/3538850670/)
244/3  #0864-47 C.ABVRI GEM_altered Hercules Prow Quadrans forgery of MA type (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ahala_rome/3538850670/)

I regard it as a forgery plain and simple (the MA has been carved out; the original type was C.ABVRI GEM, an MA quadrans is a very rare type so this was an attempt to convert a common coin into a rare coin). So when someone, in a misguided attempt to make a coin better, carefully sharpens up some existing design details, without changing the design at all, perhaps we should call it strengthened. A slightly-improved coin does not deserve to be in the same bucket as a outright forgery.

But, once again, these are all semantics. The important thing is to understand what has happened to the coin and to be able to describe the sad event. Just having this discussion helps people to understand that there are a range of interventions all in the bucket called "tooling". Some worse than others.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on September 06, 2012, 11:44:18 am
Andrew,

Yes, "all semantics", but isn't it still important to preserve clear distinctions in the meanings of words?

I continue to maintain that, for example, a coin with the emperor's hair and beard reengraved on the obverse, and the deity's clothing on the reverse, and letters of the legend tooled in that were originally entirely missing, is correctly described as "tooled", but not as either "strengthened" or "a forgery".


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on September 06, 2012, 11:53:36 am
Andrew,

Yes, "all semantics", but isn't it still important to preserve clear distinctions in the meanings of words?

I continue to maintain that, for example, a coin with the emperor's hair and beard reengraved on the obverse, and the deity's clothing on the reverse, and letters of the legend tooled in that were originally entirely missing, is correctly described as "tooled", but not as either "strengthened" or "a forgery".

Curtis

I totally agree on the need  to have clear definitions, and if possible to distinguish between different words that apply to different levels of intervention.

Forgery. Tooled. Strengthened. Smoothed. Polished. Details improved. Details enhanced with a tool. Over-cleaned. Sharpened. Heavily cleaned. Whatever.

Who is to be the guardian of these definitions?

I equate tooled=strengthened and call any deliberate change to a design as forgery but my view on these words is as subjective as the next. Others distinguish between the words. Sometimes smoothed just means smoothed, and sometimes it means also with some tooling or strengthening (as you will) at the edges". Sometimes, regardless of definitions, a seller may use "smoothed" to mean heavily tooled and then wash his hands by claiming he pointed out the intervention. It's all so confusing.

Andrew


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on September 06, 2012, 12:17:03 pm
I agree the words do matter but unfortunately I don't know whose dictionary to consult. Whatever about the words used, I attempted to describe the different degrees of intervention in a post yesterday:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=53363.msg514786#msg514786

and how these interventions affect

(a) value from the perspective of a well-informed expert
(b) academic numismatic value
(c) price

Please excuse me if you prefer to use different words than in my post. That's perfectly ok (until definitions are defined) so long as we understand the negative impact that interventions have on value. Given that neither academics nor expert collectors are the purchasers of most of these monstrosities the absurdly high "price" they sell for often has nothing to do with their value.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on September 06, 2012, 01:58:18 pm
I dislike to use of the word "strengthened" over tooled.  "Strengthened" seems to imply that tooling is a positive act.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on September 06, 2012, 02:23:20 pm
You're right, it's definitely a euphemism, chosen to make willful damage sound good!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on September 06, 2012, 03:40:21 pm
I think there's a difference between strengthening and tooling. 'Strengthened' may be used if only the contours are sharpened but nothing really altered. It's not fundamentally different from tooling but there is a difference in intensity. Of course often it is used as a eupehmism to pretend total honesty while at the same time trying to limit the damage.
I dislike to use of the word "strengthened" over tooled.  "Strengthened" seems to imply that tooling is a positive act.
You're right, it's definitely a euphemism, chosen to make willful damage sound good!

All - Thanks for the enlightening and vibrant discussion of the subject of  strengthening versus tooling.

Even for those who believe there is a difference between the two, it it simply a question of degree; strengthening being less obvious than tooling in so far as it conforms to the original iconography and epigraphy of the design.

To the coin in question, which initiated the discussion, the obverse is untouched as far as I can tell. The reverse has been "exposed to the bit". This is evident particularly in the elephants' legs, heads and trunk and the royal title and it is obvious to anyone experienced in the Seleukeia emissions but perhaps not those with little knowledge or experience of the type.  

The fact that the "strengthening" of the design is obvious (at least to the knowledgeable), means that it is sufficiently different to the original as to be discernible to the naked eye on an image and thus in my opinion lacks the integrity of the original iconography and epigraphy. To this extent it is tooling, even if one believes in the thesis that strengthening conforms to the original design whereas tooling departs from it, in which case this coin is tooled on the reverse.

The result is that the distinction between strengthening and tooling, at lest in this example is erroneous.  If I/you can discern the difference between a a coin touched by the bit and one untouched then it is tooled not strengthened by the definition proposed by some in the discussion.  Theoretically under this definition, if it is not discernible then it is not tooled, but I find it impossible to accept that the application of any bit to a coin's surface would be indiscernible - simply apply the magnifying glass and all becomes clear, tool mark which are not part of the original design (or wear pattern). Therefore the distinction between strengthening and tooling is non-existent as scrutiny of the coins surface will expose the latter even if not obvious to the naked eye.

This places me in the camp of Aarmale and Curtis Clay on this matter.  Strengthening in this case has been used as a euphemism for tooling. I dare say this has been done so as to not put off the less than knowledgeable potential bidder in the auction, while affording a defense for the vendor should the matter of tooling arise post sale- it then being easier to argue that the matter was disclosed in the lot description, albeit euphemistically!

I think areich hit the nail on the head...
..... Of course often it is used as a eupehmism to pretend total honesty while at the same time trying to limit the damage.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on September 06, 2012, 04:59:40 pm
I totally agree on the need  to have clear definitions, and if possible to distinguish between different words that apply to different levels of intervention.

Forgery. Tooled. Strengthened. Smoothed. Polished. Details improved. Details enhanced with a tool. Over-cleaned. Sharpened. Heavily cleaned. Whatever.

Who is to be the guardian of these definitions?

I equate tooled=strengthened and call any deliberate change to a design as forgery but my view on these words is as subjective as the next. Others distinguish between the words. Sometimes smoothed just means smoothed, and sometimes it means also with some tooling or strengthening (as you will) at the edges". Sometimes, regardless of definitions, a seller may use "smoothed" to mean heavily tooled and then wash his hands by claiming he pointed out the intervention. It's all so confusing.

Unfortunately there appears to be no custodian of definitions/standards in the numismatic market, nor any authority charged with the responsibility to monitoring reasonable compliance with standards. The general consumer protection law in any jurisdiction is non-specific with respect to the trade in to coins and revolves around general concepts and definitions of fair trading and non-deceptive conduct and marketing.

Tooled, smoothed, polished and truly fake coins are a fact of life in the numismatic market.  Some might even argue that the frequency of occurrence of some of these is increasing and from my perspective such a case can be made for tooled coins. Various numismatic dealers association exist, usually with a voluntary code of conduct required of members. Therefore the case can be made that it is time for the various numismatic dealers associations to bang a few heads and develop some standard definitions of things like tooling and/or strengthening with acceptance of these definitions and standards built into the voluntary code of conduct.

We have generally accepted definitions of coin grade (all be they sometimes stretched beyond the bounds of credibility by some vendors) so why not tooling. I agree that tooling comes in varying degrees, from the light touch on detail to totally transforming metallic wastage.  So why not a grade system; lightly tooled - tooled - heavily tooled - tooled fantasy with appropriate descriptive qualifiers specific to the coin in question?  Remove the ambiguity of terms such as strengthening by defining such in the terminology and grading of tooling. Similarly for the various degrees of smoothing and even polishing, distinguishing one from another and defining the boundaries between smoothing and tooling.

At the present it seems to me that the numismatic market operates much as the used car market did thirty years ago.  Near new, one owner with repaired light panel damage went the description. A glance along the side of the vehicle showed ill fitting panels and waves of metal on every surface, the  odometer showed only 50k while the fabric of the seats and carpets were worn through and the log book shows it was serviced in twenty different locations - Caveat Emptor.  But this is no longer the case in most western jurisdictions where standards have been defined and embodied in consumer law.  Unfortunately, a voluntary code was insufficient for the used car dealers and the heavy hand of the law came to be applied.

Better, I suggest that the numismatic trade dealers associations moves in advance of the need for such!


Title: Certified Tooled
Post by: Andrew McCabe on September 16, 2012, 09:26:47 am
This certified, slabbed Pompey, as VF-20, is also tooled. I can certify that. Anyone who tries to buy it deserves to be certified. Who are National Numismatic Certification anyways?

Great seller photo. But who needs a photo of the coin when you have a clearer photo of the NNC certification.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on September 16, 2012, 10:09:25 am
Who are National Numismatic Certification anyways?

Not a legitimate certification company. 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: TRPOT on September 16, 2012, 10:11:52 am
even the bar code looks phony


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: benito on November 09, 2012, 03:13:35 am
Not using the bad words.
Strenghtened/enhanced. Filled. Make-up ?
Yes imho.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: benito on November 09, 2012, 11:18:41 am
BUMP
No other opinions ?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on November 09, 2012, 12:14:02 pm
Slight tooling possible on the r. arm and the skirt of the figure on rev., in my opinion.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: benito on November 09, 2012, 02:13:31 pm
IMO quite heavy enhancing on obverse and general beauty parlor treatment. People for dinner, so tomorrow I will show what IMO is the before and after of
one of the the best tooling jobs  I have ever seen.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: benito on November 10, 2012, 01:55:48 am
Still under the effects of too much liquor , too many bragging  collectors together (50 $ for a aVF Caligula and sisters) and some angry wifes but here is the announced before and after the beauty parlor + some useful implements. ( Click to enlarge.)


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on November 11, 2012, 02:26:42 pm
When you already know the answer to a question, why pose it to the board?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: slokind on November 11, 2012, 05:53:35 pm
Well, to me the 'answer' is less whether or not the work on it amounts to 'tooling' but: In what respects does the 'conservator' give himself/herself away? 
So I'd say that the comparison is highly instructive for all of us who have handled fewer coins than Curtis (to name one) has.
I was about to post a reply asserting that the 'conservator' betrayed his ignorance of the articulation of the right leg, i.e., the Standbein.  Enough of the original metal shows on the BW photo of the knee and calf to show where he erred.  One detail is enough; I won't bore you all with more.
Pat L.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on December 05, 2012, 06:59:42 am
This one belongs here.  At least it is labeled as such.

Sicily, Bronze,The Sileraioi, c. 357-336 a.C., AE, (g 7,50, mm 20, h 11). SI?EPAION, forepart of man-faced bull r.; around linear border, Rv. SI?, warrior advancing r., wearing helmet, holding spear and shield. CNS III, n. 3; SNG ANS -. Rare. Dark patina. Tooled. About extremely fine.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: acv on December 05, 2012, 11:02:04 am
When you already know the answer to a question, why pose it to the board?

I think the point was that no one can really tell from an image whether a tool is definitely tooled or not.  Maybe he works for NGC?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on December 06, 2012, 05:22:56 am
When you already know the answer to a question, why pose it to the board?

I think the point was that no one can really tell from an image whether a tool is definitely tooled or not.  Maybe he works for NGC?

Sometimes you can tell from an image, sometimes you cannot.  Sometimes, but not often, it is very difficult to tell, even with the coin in hand.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on January 25, 2013, 06:04:26 pm
Up the usual standards of our well known IAPN accredited central European dealer. He is very consistent.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here: ROMA into ooo
Post by: Andrew McCabe on March 01, 2013, 10:52:40 pm
This is a classic. Yes some Roman bronzes have a three-pellet ooo value mark below the prow. Just not this denomination! How deeply did they have to tool to convert the word ROMA into ooo?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Sosius on March 02, 2013, 08:51:32 pm
Up the usual standards of our well known IAPN accredited central European dealer. He is very consistent.

Wow, that's hideous!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: benito on March 03, 2013, 02:02:41 am
Up the usual standards of our well known IAPN accredited central European dealer. He is very consistent.

Wow, that's hideous!

What's the meaning of IAPN ?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Aarmale on March 03, 2013, 08:48:39 am
According to NumisWiki, it is the "International Association of Professional Numismatists."


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Mark Z on April 01, 2013, 10:29:27 am
Here's one I found on another "coins for sale" website:

Septimius Severus Sestertius.

Apparently the seller has been notified and it has since been withdrawn from sale.

Regards,
mz


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on April 01, 2013, 11:39:47 am
It's good enough to fool a (self-proclaimed) numismatic expert, so it must be a very goodly tooled coin.  ::)
I think it's a close relative of Mr. Tooly's.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on May 04, 2013, 07:48:19 am
From the next auction catalogue of a well known german dealer.
Yet another ancient coin to burn, victim of an obtuse, anachronistic and disturbing "principle of novelty" that appears to have spread inexorably the German market of ancient coins.
The authors of this nonsense should be charged with vandalism.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on May 18, 2013, 12:31:53 pm
The below-illustrated coin, currently on fleabay, is, for me, an evident tooled fake. The obverse style is completely unrelated to either anchor series; ROMA is evidently cut freshly in small neat letters as is the anchor and the number I. Such a pretty smooth obverse profile is unknown in RR bronzes. Note the difference in the number I on obv and rev. This coin was probably recut from a worn anonymous bronze of my G3 series, as classified here:
http://andrewmccabe.ancients.info/RRC056.html

For the wider list who perhaps don't have my familiarity with RR bronzes, I wanted to draw attention to the nature of the tooling / smoothing and repatination that produces this superficially attractive green-brown surfaces, as well as the unusually small, neat lettering and the unusually small and neat symbol on the reverse. These are warning signs.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: MagisterRiggs on May 18, 2013, 03:56:18 pm
Thanks Andrew, your description helps us newbies understand what's wrong. Your patience and care to insert that is appreciated.

Cary Riggs



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: FlaviusDomitianus on June 13, 2013, 02:20:09 am
Here's a fantasy Domitian's sestertius seen on trade on fleabay.

Everything is wrong here: MONETA reverse was struck only for asses, obverse legend doesn't exist, portrait is completely wrong for a supposedly 90-91 AD coin.

IF there was a real coin under the fake patina and before the massive tooling, it could have been a Pax sestertius of Vespasian or Titus, about 74 A.D..

Kind regards

Alberto



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Curtis on June 13, 2013, 12:35:05 pm
I also have one "beautiful" example of tooling...

Could those be two nearly identical cast fakes?

Yes, i was puzzled with this coin too. This part of scratch looks really strange. But a wear looks good, and exist and another examples from this obv. die at close condition, which seems undoubtly struck.
So, i think it's mostly crazy tooling, not forgery. IMHO.

That is great research, xintaris75!

I immediately thought forgery as Joe said. You convinced me otherwise for a second, with the other coin. But how did the first pair end up being so identical (minus the bizarre scratch/crack) in their placement and position on the flan, and in the flan shape? It seems like someone was making forgeries with that die (or set of dies), and once it cracked, they shopped the die to give the flan a different shape. Is that possible? I just can't shake the first pair of images. The flans appear 100% identical with identical die positioning, only differing in that crack. Couldn't the die have later been reshaped to create the flan shape on the third coin you show?

I'm just thinking "out loud," but it seems odd to me...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on July 09, 2013, 12:45:58 pm
Bruttium, Lokris
9,37g; 11,5mm

dreadful tooling


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on July 11, 2013, 08:42:24 am
Lucania, Metapontion
Weight: 3.3 g.
Diameter: 12 mm.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Curtis on July 24, 2013, 11:55:20 am
That is a very sad case, indeed, if it's truly tooled, since the "improvements" would only add minimal value to a piece that is already of great value. The "tooled" eye seems to look about like it ought to, but it would have been one of the first, highest relief details to wear off, and the coin has enough general wear elsewhere that it's not believable. Quite perplexing, since I can't imagine the tooling, if it "passed" as real detail, would add more than minuscule value to a coin that would otherwise have already been worth multiple thousands of US$. (I might not have caught it on a quick glance, though). Good example.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Curtis on July 24, 2013, 12:01:58 pm
Taras, I'm not sure where the tooling is on this one. Can you point it out? It's just the kind of bronze coin I would want for my family's private, "no-sell" collection, so I'm interested to know where you see it.
Grain ear?
Bust?
Thanks!
Curtis

Lucania, Metapontion
Weight: 3.3 g.
Diameter: 12 mm.

(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53363.0;attach=213636;image)


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on July 24, 2013, 12:31:03 pm
Curtis, look at the obverse: eyes, nose, lips, chin and ear are roughly tooled, you can clearly see the traces left by chisels. Result: the style is horribly distorted, you should look at the plates of the Johnston's work on the bronze coinage of Metapontion, to make a comparison with this monstrosity. If ever I were drunk enough to buy it, this is the kind of coin I'd put in the "freak section" of my collection.

Bye :)
Nico


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on September 02, 2013, 09:54:06 am
From the next auction catalogue of a well known german dealer.
Yet another ancient coin to burn, victim of an obtuse, anachronistic and disturbing "principle of novelty" that appears to have spread inexorably the German market of ancient coins.
The authors of this nonsense should be charged with vandalism.

The beauty re-appeared in a german auction catalogue, Oct 2013


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on September 02, 2013, 02:54:54 pm
I had a look to the ebay store of the German seller.
It is no longer a numismatic shop, it's an Horror-Theatre!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Frans Diederik on September 02, 2013, 03:52:30 pm
This is indeed horrible!!


Frans


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: HELEN S on September 02, 2013, 03:55:59 pm


  GRIM


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on September 02, 2013, 10:36:24 pm
I had a look to the ebay store of the German seller.
It is no longer a numismatic shop, it's an Horror-Theatre!

 :o


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on September 03, 2013, 09:04:43 am
From the german ebay seller
I think there is one Historia Numorum - Italy book for sale that is not tooled ;D


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on September 26, 2013, 12:12:12 pm
From the new online catalogue of a German auction house.
All these are tooled, and added of fake patina... now they are genuine ancient modern fakes.

(http://www.sixbid.com/images/auction_images/965/915110l.jpg)

(http://www.sixbid.com/images/auction_images/965/915109l.jpg)

(http://www.sixbid.com/images/auction_images/965/915111l.jpg)

(http://www.sixbid.com/images/auction_images/965/915119l.jpg)

(http://www.sixbid.com/images/auction_images/965/915127l.jpg)

(http://www.sixbid.com/images/auction_images/965/915142l.jpg)

(http://www.sixbid.com/images/auction_images/965/915175l.jpg)

(http://www.sixbid.com/images/auction_images/965/915187l.jpg)

(http://www.sixbid.com/images/auction_images/965/915189l.jpg)


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on September 26, 2013, 12:37:39 pm
Looks like the same artist worked on this one, which when I asked them if it (the reverse inscription) was tooled, they said all ancient coins are significantly "worked on" but they didn't think it was tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on September 26, 2013, 12:40:57 pm
Sure Nick, the workshop is the same.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on September 26, 2013, 12:48:55 pm
On the same catalog I have found a coin which is not tooled.
...oops it's a fake!!
Just added to the fake reports..
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-15198


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on September 26, 2013, 04:09:17 pm
Perhaps these are the unsolds from their previous auction of tooled crap a few years ago? Either they don't know or don't care, whichever it is, I no longer buy from them.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Meepzorp on September 26, 2013, 06:42:43 pm
Hi folks,

This thread is scaring me. In looking at pages 20 and 21, I recognize only 30-40% of these coins as being tooled and/or fakes. About 60-70% of these coins would have fooled me. In the post that Taras made at the end of page 20 (with the 9 photos), I recognized only one (the Gela one) as being tooled/fake. The other 8 would have fooled me. The coin in the photo in Nick's post at the beginning of page 21 also would have fooled me, as would the "fake patina" RR coin in Andrew's post on page 20.

And I've been collecting ancient coins (especially Magna Graecia) since 1998. Am I not seeing something?

Meepzorp


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: ecoli on September 26, 2013, 08:59:40 pm
A lot of it has to do with thinking about wear patterns.

If details are fresh on a generally old worn flan, chances are
the details were helped.




Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on September 27, 2013, 04:02:43 am
Those posts are intended to learn, not to scare.
Panic does not help to solve the problem.
The only way to spot fakes and tooled coins is to train your eyes, reading books, and when your eyes are not still well trained, making "networking" with scholars and collectors.

Bye
Nico


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on September 27, 2013, 05:06:50 am
Hi folks,

This thread is scaring me. In looking at pages 20 and 21, I recognize only 30-40% of these coins as being tooled and/or fakes. About 60-70% of these coins would have fooled me. In the post that Taras made at the end of page 20 (with the 9 photos), I recognized only one (the Gela one) as being tooled/fake. The other 8 would have fooled me. The coin in the photo in Nick's post at the beginning of page 21 also would have fooled me, as would the "fake patina" RR coin in Andrew's post on page 20.

And I've been collecting ancient coins (especially Magna Graecia) since 1998. Am I not seeing something?

Meepzorp

I'm not certain the Agyrion coin is tooled either, but the inscription looks strange, which is why I asked the auction house and ultimately decided not to bid. 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: otlichnik on September 27, 2013, 02:21:39 pm
Ecoli's comment about wear is one of the main clues that trigger my suspicions.  The higher surfaces of coins wear more.  It is a simple and logical rule but is one that many toolers break especially when they altar hair and drapery.

It is one advantage of having a low end collection.  I have a few hundred large bronzes of the mid-1st to mid-3rd c, mostly sestertii but some dupondii and asses.  While I like my little collection I recognize that they are not high end coins.  What they are though is worn and as a result I know what worn large bronzes look like. 

Shawn


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on October 09, 2013, 08:35:54 pm
Oh my beard! And what happened to my hair? Why is my nose so pointy?!

Described as such for those who did not notice at first glance....


SELEUKID KINGS of SYRIA. Seleukos I Nikator. 312-281 BC. AR Tetradrachm (26mm, 17.07 g, 10h). Seleukeia II mint. Struck circa 296/5-281 BC. Laureate head of Zeus right / Athena in quadriga of horned elephants right, brandishing spear and shield; anchor above, ΔΝ in exergue. SC 130.11; HGC 9, 18a. VF, toned, obverse tooled.

I dare say its from the same tooler's hand as the one I posted earlier in the thread - easily recognized handiwork in the tooled beard and hair style. A shame really and arguably not reflected in the hefty estimate! I guess that fools and their money are always waiting to be separated.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on October 10, 2013, 07:13:19 am
Some weeks ago I posted a Starr Group V tetradrachm from the same auction but my post was deleted


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on October 25, 2013, 12:07:37 am
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

A coin of Diodotos II of Baktria bearing the posthumous image of his father Diodotos I. Heavily tooled, but the obverse portrait style is distinctve of the issues that constitute Holt's Group B1-B3 all bearing the idealised posthumous image of Diodotos I.  

So far so good, tooling aside.

However, turn to the reverse and we find a crudely approximated mint control (the pitchfork symbol) that never occurrred on the coinage in the name of Diodotos. Its only to be found (in much more refined form with some additional detail missing from the tooled item) on the much earlier coinage in the name of Antiochos issued by Diodotos I at the time he was nominally the Seleucid Satrap of Baktria. The only controls on the coins bearing the posthumous portrait of Diodotos I (Holt Groups B1-B1) are a wreath, or a crescent or none at all.  In all liklhood this coin pre-tooling was an example of the last noted type - no control!

Some poor sod will potentially buy this piece of maliciously tooled junk and believe he has a unique and unrecorded coin!

Equally egregious is the vendor's description of it as a coin of Diodotos I. Diodotos I never issued coins in the name of Diodotos; all were in the name of his nominal suzerain, Antiochos. It fell to his son, Diodotos II, to proclaim complete independence on coinage in the name of Diodotos.  

Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on October 25, 2013, 12:14:12 am
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

A coin of Diodotos II of Baktria bearing the posthumous image of his father Diodotos I. Heavily tooled, but the obverse portrait style is distinctve of the issues that constitute Holt's Group B1-B3 all bearing the idealised posthumous image of Diodotos I.  

So far so good, tooling aside.

However, turn to the reverse and we find a crudely approximated mint control (the pitchfork symbol) that never occurrred on the coinage in the name of Diodotos. Its only to be found (in much more refined form with some additional detail missing from the tooled item) on the much earlier coinage in the name of Antiochos issued by Diodotos I at the time he was nominally the Seleucid Satrap of Baktria. The only controls on the coins bearing the posthumous portrait of Diodotos I (Holt Groups B1-B1) are a wreath, or a crescent or none at all.  

Some poor sod will potentially buy this piece of maliciously tooled junk and believe he has a unique and unrecorded coin!

In cases like this I wonder where tooling ends and forgery begins.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on October 25, 2013, 12:21:23 am
In cases like this I wonder where tooling ends and forgery begins.

Certainly its a blurred line. Call it what we will, tooling or forgery, the potentially adverse consequence of this sort of activity on the  understanding and interpretation of the numismatic record is profound.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on October 26, 2013, 12:01:45 pm
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!


I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on October 26, 2013, 12:21:36 pm
I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...

I agree with this sentiment. If a coin is described as tooled and is offered at a low price, you know exactly what you are bidding on. I've no problems with that, even if the tooling resulted in inadvertent changes - tooling by definition always causes changes to the coins design; when disclosed and priced, its no different from when a reputable dealer offers Cavinos or group lots of black cabinet reproductions.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on October 26, 2013, 11:32:16 pm
I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...

I agree with this sentiment. If a coin is described as tooled and is offered at a low price, you know exactly what you are bidding on. I've no problems with that, even if the tooling resulted in inadvertent changes - tooling by definition always causes changes to the coins design; when disclosed and priced, its no different from when a reputable dealer offers Cavinos or group lots of black cabinet reproductions.

So tooling is only unacceptable if it is offered at a high price?  ???  

The title of the tread is Badly Tooled Coins Here with no qualifiaction as to sale practices, or offered prices.

This coin is clearly badly tooled, to the point of being numismatically misleading to those unfamiliar with the type and it is misattributed. Cheap or not does not enter the consideration of what constitutes badly tooled. But of course for the apologists for inept and incompetent dealers this matters little, to the extent that it is equated with  being ...no different from when a reputable dealer offers Cavinos or group lots of black cabinet reproductions. That last statement is complete bollocks when you examine the facts about this Badly Tooled Coin, its misattribution and the circumstances under which it is offered, that have nothing to do with the starting price that is offered. And since when are fully attributed Cavinos or balck cabinet fakes the same as misattributed tooled coins?  Completely different things as far as I am concerned, and I suggest most would agree that there are no similarities between a reproduction, or balck cabinet fake and a badly tooled coin.

And a starting price is not an estimate and certainly not a price realized. Quite the opposite more often than not. In fact it is usual for the less than scrupulous to post a low starting price with no estimate as a hook to the suckers. But my issue was not with this approach, it never entered the discussion till someone blew this smoke, irrelevant to the consideration, over the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here.

Rather as I said:
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record......
&
In cases like this I wonder where tooling ends and forgery begins.

Certainly its a blurred line. Call it what we will, tooling or forgery, the potentially adverse consequence of this sort of activity on the  understanding and interpretation of the numismatic record is profound.

So your point is what? That there are acceptable Badly Tooled Coins if they are offered at a cheap price, even if misattributed and bearing no comment on the extent of misleading reworking/addition of erroneous mint controls etc.? Sure no expert will be deceived, but then no expert will be interested in the crap.... the same can be said of any and every tooled coin! If thats your benchmark then all tooled coins are acceptable and pose no risk (to experts).

Your logic seems flawed, to say the least!

It is not experts that buy this sort of material and for such people it is far from clear-cut that ..... If a coin is described as tooled and is offered at a low price, you know exactly what you are bidding on.  In this specific case the inexpert bidder might think he had found a bargain unrecorded Diodotid coin type! Onto that hook you sucker!

But remember, I made no big deal of these aspects, in simply posting a Badly Tooled Coin Here and explaing why it was badly tooled and misattributed. The matter of price never came into this consideration in my original post, that smoke was blown over the subject by the apologist for an inept at best, misleading at worst, dealer who remained completely anonymous in my post.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on October 27, 2013, 12:08:08 am
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!


I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...

What has the offered price got to do with the consideration of a Badly Tooled Coin posted under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?

It is badly tooled and misattributed regardless of the price! Thus it warrants posting here. No big deal was made by me of the matter. Rather it was posted with the facts about it, as just another example of bad tooling (tongue in cheek I ask is there ever good tooling?) which constitutes little more than Numismatic Vandalism.

Are you suggesting that we should only consider tooled coins that are offered at a high price under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?

As far as I am concerned if someone reading this thread is made aware of the matter and the problems with this specific coin and then declines to bid on it because he/she understands what it really is, then all the better for it. Only when people stop buying tooled crap with tooling cease.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on October 27, 2013, 01:31:41 am
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!


I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...

What has the offered price got to do with the consideration of a Badly Tooled Coin posted under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?

It is badly tooled and misattributed regardless of the price! Thus it warrants posting here. No big deal was made by me of the matter. Rather it was posted with the facts about it, as just another example of bad tooling (tongue in cheek I ask is there ever good tooling?) which constitutes little more than Numismatic Vandalism.

Are you suggesting that we should only consider tooled coins that are offered at a high price under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?

As far as I am concerned if someone reading this thread is made aware of the matter and the problems with this specific coin and then declines to bid on it because he/she understands what it really is, then all the better for it. Only when people stop buying tooled crap with tooling cease.

I said in the decription by the auction house the tooling is mentioned. This defect is catered by the small price. I am not defending the auction house, they have an obvious slavey fake I already posted, and molinari posted another bronze italian fake. And I suspect other ones as well. As I said it is obvious these 200 coins are coming from the collection of sb that passed and possibly bought these as authentics, and the auction house put everything on auction.

You didn't name the auction house, but there are 3 spanish auction houses only...And why did you mention the provenance if you want to discuss the coin only?

I think there are many members including Joe that are a bit exaggerating with the "we discuss coins not dealers and prices" motto. The coins are not spawning as mushrooms in our gardens and as far as I know it is illegal if you go out in Greece with a metal detector.For each coin I have there was always a dealer and a price and sadly money set aside and saved to buy it.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lloyd Taylor on October 27, 2013, 01:49:07 am

I said in the decription by the auction house the tooling is mentioned. This defect is catered by the small price. I am not defending the auction house, they have an obvious slavey fake I already posted, and molinari posted another bronze italian fake. And I suspect other ones as well. As I said it is obvious these 200 coins are coming from the collection of sb that passed and possibly bought these are authentics, and the auction house put everything on auction.

To which I say so what?  

The fact that tooling is mentioned is irrelevant to the fact that it is a badly tooled coin which is the subject of the thread.  

The fact that the tooling is mentiond in the description doesn't alter the fact that the coin is misattributed, nor does it in anyway remove the responsibility for both correct attribution and mention that the tooling has created a totally false mint control when the coin is correctly attributed.

The fact that it is accompanied by other crap material doesn't alter in any way that it is a badly tooled, deceptive coin and thus worthy of posting in the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here. More worthy of the title badly tooled than most of the coins posted previously, by virtue of the complete falsification of the mint control resultant from tooling.

Does the fact (if it is as you hypothesize) that this is part of someone's collection being sold lessen the responsibility for this badly tooled coin, or in some way make it less badly tooled? I think not! On your logic it appears that any crap that finds its way into an auction from someone's collection is turned into something acceptable and that this "provenance" removes the auction house of any responsibility for authentication, accurate description and attribution. On the contrary in my humble opinion, but you may differ, as is you prerogative. In any event this aspect was not the subject of my original post, but rather irrelevant "smoke" that you have sought to blow over the subject of why and how this is a badly tooled coin.

I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it.

So where is the "big deal" in posting this badly tooled coin with an explanation of what is wrong with it?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on October 27, 2013, 04:24:19 am

So where is the "big deal" in posting this badly tooled coin with an explanation of what is wrong with it?

Lloyd you made several comments on how reputable is the spanish auction house and how ignorant they are and so on. I said they are small players in the field usually selling inexpensive ancient greek lots and out of coincidence a serious collection ended up with them. You commented on the vendor, you could have discussed the coin only as you propose we should be all be doing. On the occassion of the Rhodes coins where indeed reputable and knowledgable dealers were involved, the thread was closed in a hurry, nobody cared about the "suckers" that got the fake coins, and I was instructed to not inform the forum about the answers of the vendors.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on October 27, 2013, 04:36:52 am
I've always been a vigorous opponent of tooling, because it deceives collectors and destroys real ancient coins, and an even more vigorous opponent of undisclosed or lame excuses for tooling ("lightly smoothed" being the phrase I hate most of all, weasel words that say nothing straight but act as some sort of cloak for a dishonest seller). This thread is a place to complain about and highlight tooled coins, and to complain about the nature of deceptive sales practices relating to tooled coins and to give fair warning to collectors. This coin rightly belongs in this thread, and all credit to Lloyd for pointing out and explaining its terrible defects. I think it's also right to note a rare instance of a seller actually describing a coin as tooled, hence giving a warning when disposing of a very bad coin. If only more did so...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on October 27, 2013, 04:48:57 am
Price is not relevant when discussing a fake or tooled coin.  A low price does not make it less fake or less tooled.

Being correctly identified as fake or tooled coin in the sellers description is relevant only in that it provides evidence the coin is fake or tooled.

Seller's description or attribution errors are not important here.  This board is about coins not sellers.  We should NOT insult vendors here, even if they are anonymous, unless we are nominating them for the Notorious Fake Seller List.  



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on October 27, 2013, 05:28:45 pm
From the same source as the diotos one above, marked as tooled


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on October 27, 2013, 05:30:03 pm
And another one


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on October 27, 2013, 05:50:47 pm
And another one

I don't see where this one is tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on October 28, 2013, 12:56:00 am
And another one

I don't see where this one is tooled.

The tooling is declared in this auction. From the ex-venue:"Gestalt der Sosipolis auf dem Revers überarbeitet"
Apart from Sosipolis' head that is declared as tooled, I believe that the horses' tails are also tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on October 30, 2013, 04:45:48 am
From the usual german ebay shop


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: tjaart on November 08, 2013, 04:38:23 am
Just saw this horribly tooled tetradrachm on fleabay from the usual toolie dealer.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: ickster on November 08, 2013, 10:20:43 am
That is a horrow show  :o


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on December 02, 2013, 01:55:31 pm
From the same German ebay store.
An amazing incuse alien-bull  :o


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on December 24, 2013, 06:03:45 am
Poor Tanit  ::)
This re-engraved monstrosity appears in a french platform shop. I don't plan to contact them, I give up....


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on December 29, 2013, 08:29:19 am
From an online german auction. The hair is tooled. The provenance given (NAC 4/ 1401 1991) is erroneous.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on December 29, 2013, 01:08:50 pm
The last two...I just don't see the tooling. I suppose I would see it if it was side-by-side with another coin from the same dies, but it isn't jumping out at me. Maybe with the less obvious coins you can post untooled coins to compare?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on December 29, 2013, 03:52:57 pm
The last two...I just don't see the tooling. I suppose I would see it if it was side-by-side with another coin from the same dies, but it isn't jumping out at me. Maybe with the less obvious coins you can post untooled coins to compare?

Given the overall condition of the carthage stater and the chalkis drachm, there is no way high points such as the hair can have such detail. Especially for Tanit, I have never seen a Group V or Group VI with such hairlines.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Pscipio on December 30, 2013, 02:46:51 am
I agree that the Carthage Stater is probably tooled, whereas from the picture I am undecided about the Chalkis coin. Its hairlines do look like what you would expect from tooling but then again, they also do not stand out as completely unnatural for this issue either.

Lars


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on December 30, 2013, 06:29:07 am
I agree that the Carthage Stater is probably tooled, whereas from the picture I am undecided about the Chalkis coin. Its hairlines do look like what you would expect from tooling but then again, they also do not stand out as completely unnatural for this issue either.

Lars

Letting aside the possibility that the Chalkis drachm is tooled, I consider it unbelievable that this coin hammered 6 times its estimate, with an obviously erroneous NAC provenance. European auctions are getting insane, I wonder who and why is paying all these money to get non-exceptional coins that would be really cheap 10-15 years ago.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on December 30, 2013, 06:42:03 am
The apparently tooled Tanit appears to be debased gold (electrum?) and the comparison coin appears to be of good gold. That makes it difficult to compare them. Near 24k gold certainly would not hold up those finer details with any wear. I believe that the French dealer is quite accurate in attribution, grading, authentication and descriptions. Nobody is perfect but they generally impress me which is primarily why I am still not entirely convinced it is tooled.

The Chalkis comparison coin is flatly struck with slightly worn dies. That makes it difficult to compare them. The sharpness of the detail on the apparently tooled coin does seem impossible and probably is impossible, but I am still not entirely sure.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on December 30, 2013, 07:07:12 am
The apparently tooled Tanit appears to be debased gold (electrum?) and the comparison coin appears to be of good gold. That makes it difficult to compare them. Near 24k gold certainly would not hold up those finer details with any wear. I believe that the French dealer is quite accurate in attribution, grading, authentication and descriptions. Nobody is perfect but they generally impress me which is primarily why I am still not entirely convinced it is tooled.

The Chalkis comparison coin is flatly struck with slightly worn dies. That makes it difficult to compare them. The sharpness of the detail on the apparently tooled coin does seem impossible and probably is impossible, but I am still not entirely sure.

Hmm, the photo is showing a deep yellow colour that is an effect of photography. Group VI is electrum with very low gold content 45-55% if I remember by heart. I attach a photo of the best example I have seen around, you can see that the hair of the french example has been re-engraved. The French dealer is quite good and I was surprised this slipped through their attention.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: BiancasDad on January 02, 2014, 11:56:38 pm
Recently sold on ebay. I was admiring the beautiful patina on this dupondius but as I looked closer it appeared tooled to me. I have very little experience in this area, only what I have read and learned here on Forvm. Opinions appreciated.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Britanikus on January 03, 2014, 12:30:05 am
Hi this is not a sestertius it is dupondius


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Britanikus on January 03, 2014, 12:32:08 am
I dont think the coin was tooled .I think in some point the patina wast striped .


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on January 03, 2014, 04:21:11 am
I see cleaning scratches but no tooling.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on February 21, 2014, 12:07:26 pm
Philistis' veil got some extra folds :o


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: cmcdon0923 on February 24, 2014, 11:43:31 pm
Tooled?

My money says "yes"......


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on February 25, 2014, 03:32:41 pm
From a German seller, not the usual one, but probably bought from the usual one or bought from the supplier to the usual one. I have no idea what coin type it is intended to be. The obverse looks vaguely like bronze asses of the 180-140 BC period. The reverse, well who knows. The prow is unlike any Roman coin, and the vague M above it could have been tooled from anything; the word ROMA is of course a complete modern fabrication about half the size of what it really should be like. The seller claims it is an as of Pompey. That, it certainly isn't. Currently listed on a supposedly reputable coin sales platform. He isn't shy about price or condition, 425 euros, VF. I'm pretty sure that when this was an ancient coin, sometime last year maybe, it was in Fair-Good condition and probably priced below 10 euros.


Title: Re: Agyrion Rarity Tarnished :(
Post by: Molinari on March 28, 2014, 10:52:17 am
This "lightly tooled" coin hits close to home.  In this case, the (usual) seller would have been able to charge quite the premium because it is a very rare variety, possibly new, that shows an olive sprig below the man-faced bull.  Impossible to say just how rare because it has been altered so I can't be sure of anything.  But it may have been a new version of the Olive Sprig variety, this one with legend instead of bow on obverse.

Now, I won't touch it :(

The worst part is, I bet it was a decent enough coin before the tooler got a hold of it!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Ghengis Jon on April 23, 2014, 08:08:33 am
Bleh.  "sehr schön" ?!?



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: jmuona on April 29, 2014, 01:12:13 am
Again, already in my Gallery, but worth seeing here as well. The hairdo was redone with an idea of the original, the reverse drapery is just horrible.
s.
Jyrki Muona


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on April 29, 2014, 02:00:49 am
Could I ask a Moderator to please "stickie" this Badly Tooled Coins thread to the Ancient Coin Forum. The thread has been running continually for five years with some 500 responses and shows no signs of fading so I think its earned credit to be a stickie by now! Currently when I'm looking for the thread I have to search for it anew each time and a stickie would make it easy to find.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on May 01, 2014, 10:41:15 am
I'm glad this is now stickied, thanks for suggesting it, Andrew.

Here's one I saw today that made me sad, since it is truly rare.

I'm not sure if the obverse is tooled, but I am certain the face of the man-faced bull on the reverse is.

EDIT:  The seller obviously knows it is tooled but hasn't labeled it as such.  If he didn't think so, he'd be selling it for at least 10x the amount at which he has it listed!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on June 12, 2014, 08:56:30 am
Sold previously as "smoothed".  Surprisingly, the current seller does not have it described that way.  I wrote to them and recommended they list it as tooled, because it is.  Specifically, the face of the man-faced bull and the warrior's face on the reverse.



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Taras on June 13, 2014, 12:14:03 am
Sold previously as "smoothed".  Surprisingly, the current seller does not have it described that way.  I wrote to them and recommended they list it as tooled, because it is.  Specifically, the face of the man-faced bull and the warrior's face on the reverse.



I agree, this coin is much problematic.
Bye

Nico


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on June 13, 2014, 01:39:04 am
There must have been a change in the person writing the descriptions for the recent auctions, I noticed an increasing use of "good or excellent metal for issue"  which was rarely used in older auctions...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on June 13, 2014, 03:13:04 am
Sometimes descriptions seem to come from the consignors, like "earthen patina" for glued-on sand. Can anybody be sure with coins like this one here, whether it is even genuine?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on June 13, 2014, 05:36:36 am
Can anybody be sure with coins like this one here, whether it is even genuine?

I think so.  It is consistent with one of the two dies for this type except for the face and some heavy smoothing around the legend and major devices.  Unless it is a forgery copying a real die that was later tooled...but that doesn't make sense to me.

I see a lot of Sileraioi litrai tooled.  I think they were generally weakly struck at the face of the man-faced bull, and that is often the area where toolers focus, because who wants a coin of a man-faced bull with no face?  There is also one definite fake die for the Sileraioi, published on Forvm and discussed in another thread, and one suspected, see the second to last two coins here, which appeared on the market only recently and are of a style inconsistent with known Sileraioi bronzes:

http://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/uncertain-2/


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on June 23, 2014, 07:20:10 pm
The above mentioned Sileraioi coin is now described as lightly tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: fomovore on November 02, 2014, 08:55:42 pm
If this isn't tooled, I don't know what is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PARTHIAN-KINGDOM-MITHRADATES-II-121-91-B-C-AE-DICHALKOUS-HORSE-HEAD-/381029891802?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58b726beda


Title: Re: Badly Tooled EPEIV TOECI
Post by: Andrew McCabe on December 22, 2014, 03:14:32 pm
It's been a few months since I visited fleabay but it didn't take long to remind me why I'd delayed my return so long. Still, there are always new surprises. I've always wanted an EPEIV TOECI as, and now is my chance. Perhaps I'll make an offer:


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Jay GT4 on December 22, 2014, 04:27:09 pm
Ugh!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on January 15, 2015, 08:06:56 am
First tooled in 2015, a Mamertinoi Pentonkion on sale in an Italian auction with provenance of being unsold in a German auction in 2010


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on January 15, 2015, 08:25:06 am
I split the recent Demetrios Poliorketes posts into a new topic and moved it to Authentication, Fakes and Frauds:  http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=99864.0


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on March 20, 2015, 08:27:26 am
Coming up in a German auction, I believe the hair has been tooled


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: OldMoney on April 15, 2015, 08:11:04 am
Another one coming up soon, especially the reverse.

(http://www.sixbid.com/images/auction_images/1904/1660749l.jpg)
http://www.sixbid.com/images/auction_images/1904/1660749l.jpg

Claimed to have been: "Smoothed and tooled in ancient time" (sic).

Walter Holt


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: ancientdave on June 22, 2015, 11:40:21 pm
This one is upsetting, from a trusted auction site who really ought to know better. An oversight possibly, but to my eye it's very blatant. No mention of this very obvious example of tooling. I very much hope this does not become a pattern for this well respected firm. Thoughts?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here - Julia Titi on ebay
Post by: snapapuss on July 24, 2015, 02:33:21 pm
Domitian for Julia Titi

Described in translation as Carved, smoothed otherwise very nice see photo
24.65gr
39mm
Currently over 600 CAD


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: snapapuss on July 24, 2015, 02:35:12 pm
How do I make the picture bigger

Thanks

steve


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on August 03, 2015, 08:41:48 am
This must be tooled, right?  I'm second guessing myself because of the venue, and that's the dangerous thing about these sneaking in to the more prestigious firms...

SICILY, Akragas. Circa 425/0-410/06 BC. Æ Hemilitron – Hexonkion (26mm, 19.33 g). [Eagle standing right on hare] / [Crab; uncertain symbols in fields]; c/m: head of Herakles right, wearing lion skin, within incuse circle. For coin: cf. HGC 2, 133. For c/m: CNS 92 CM. Countermark Near VF, coin Poor.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on August 05, 2015, 04:05:54 pm
Hadrian moneta


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on August 05, 2015, 04:13:21 pm
Egypt alexandria ae hadrians.


Drachm
Emmett 964


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on August 05, 2015, 05:11:47 pm
I don't see any tooling on this second coin (Alexandrian drachm).


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on August 06, 2015, 12:50:56 am
i thought i saw deepening around upper part on the reverse, to make the figures more standing out.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on August 07, 2015, 10:03:31 am
This must be tooled, right?...


Yes.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on August 10, 2015, 01:08:57 pm
This must be tooled, right?...


Yes.

I emailed them and the coin has been withdrawn.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Crispus on August 10, 2015, 07:05:02 pm
What do you all think, tooled or not tooled and your overall opinion of the coin. 

I had this originally posted trying to find out if it was a sestertius or dupondius.  I received my answer on that- sestertius.

Thanks in advance!

Tim


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on August 11, 2015, 12:45:35 am
Hello Tim,

for me, it looks way too soft,


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Charles S on August 11, 2015, 01:06:48 am
Quote from: curtislclay link=topic=53363.msg634176#msg634176 date= the 1438816307
I don't see any tooling on this second coin (Alexandrian drachm).
I agree, I see no tooling either on the Alexandria drachm. An attractive coin actually, I would not mind having in my collection.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on August 11, 2015, 01:25:41 am
Quote from: curtislclay link=topic=53363.msg634176#msg634176 date= the 1438816307
I don't see any tooling on this second coin (Alexandrian drachm).
I agree, I see no tooling either on the Alexandria drachm.

thank you both, learning here every day, sometimes its so easy and then "easy" is not.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on August 11, 2015, 02:36:30 am
It is tooled. But it might also be a cast fake that has been tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on August 11, 2015, 02:50:43 am
It is tooled. But it might also be a cast fake that has been tooled.
hello Areich,

the Drachm i posted?



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on August 11, 2015, 03:24:48 am
What do you all think, tooled or not tooled and your overall opinion of the coin. 

I had this originally posted trying to find out if it was a sestertius or dupondius.  I received my answer on that- sestertius.

Thanks in advance!

Tim

Sorry, I didn't see that there was another page to this thread. I meant this coin.

The drachm looks fine to me.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Joe Sermarini on August 11, 2015, 05:07:47 am
If you are asking IF a coin is tooled, it should be in a separate thread.  This thread should be for posting photos of coins you are confident are tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on August 20, 2015, 12:21:07 pm
Diameter: 33 mm

Weight  : 20,9 g


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on October 26, 2015, 07:14:58 am
In a french platform shop. Owl's down feathers are engraved


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: dougsmit on October 27, 2015, 03:58:38 pm
I suppose my post is out of place here among all these attempts to raise the grade of worn out coins but tooling can beused to upgrade even to something that does not exist. 

I believe Zenobia started out as a Flavian as with Spes reverse.  I could not refuse it and would love to know if anyone ever bought it really thinking it was Zenobia.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: dougsmit on October 27, 2015, 04:03:52 pm
If my last one was bad, this is worse.  This photo was sent to me 45 years ago by a person I have forgotten.  I seem to have lost the reverse.  In case anyone misses the point here, there are no Roman denomination bronzes of Pescennius Niger so this does not need further work to be the best known.

(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/gpesc.jpg)


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on January 28, 2016, 11:31:31 am
Hadrian on sale no mention of tooling


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: maridvnvm on January 29, 2016, 02:55:39 am
Look at poor Diocletian...


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on January 29, 2016, 05:01:35 am
Wow.  That's one of the worst examples I've seen in a while.  Who on earth would think it's a good idea to do that to an ancient artifact?  Only a real you-know-what!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: dougsmit on January 29, 2016, 06:58:34 am
Is it inappropriate to ask if tooling is becoming more acceptable in some places than others?  When I see badly tooled coins they seem to be more often from certain countries.  My eyes are offended by this sort of thing but the number of examples we see suggests it does not bother everyone.   


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on January 29, 2016, 07:16:44 am
I don't know if it is more acceptable in other countries or not.  I think it is inexperienced buyers who see a big name firm and assume things are legit. 

The Greek coins from this seller had been getting slightly better over the last year or so- not as many horribly tooled coins and often times perfectly normal coins would be listed as "smoothed and tooled" (I assume it is the same seller of this present Roman coin).


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on January 29, 2016, 07:25:59 am
I mailed to the auction house with those 2 Hadrian's, i mailed them
"An auction house should not post them for sale or at least text tooled or smoothed coins"

i did not receive any response.  :( 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on January 29, 2016, 08:22:19 am
Is it inappropriate to ask if tooling is becoming more acceptable in some places than others?  When I see badly tooled coins they seem to be more often from certain countries.  My eyes are offended by this sort of thing but the number of examples we see suggests it does not bother everyone.   

For many years I've been collecting only untooled bronzes and disposing of any I feel might have been tooled, smoothed or overcleaned - and in the case of the first two categories, stating such in sale descriptions. It remains to be seen whether my endeavours will result in better sale prices, or if collectors used to toolies will just think, "not very sharp coins". I feel much the same way about natural old toned silver as against chemically cleaned coins. Many neophyte collectors have got used to collecting chemically cleaned silver. When I come to sell, they may think, "not very minty and a bit dirty". I still feel I must collect coins that have not been interfered with, but whether I get my reward in earthly dollars or in some form of antiquarian nirvana reserved for the purest of collectors, I have no idea.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: otlichnik on January 29, 2016, 08:32:37 am
Hopefully in earthly dollars based on repeat business given your evident honesty and transparency.

Though banking antiquarian nirvana is always a good investment too.

Shawn


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Lee S on January 29, 2016, 09:58:25 am
But there is a world of difference between a tooled ( and even smoothed ) coin, and an overcleaned coin that has been repatinated / retoned...
    I have in my collection several coins that I have treated for BD, ( and a few that I overcleaned, and even one or two I used electrolysis on as a method of last resort... ::)   ) which had no patina remaining... I have used chemicals to give these coins a more attractive look, but I have not altered or added anything to the original detail of the coin, which I feel is the most important point to consider here.
    I have also cleaned a few coins which had a very thick ( usually green...) patina where I have selectively thinned the patina in the relevant places ( around eyes, lettering etc.) to make the coin as attractive as possible, and I have, to be honest felt a little guilty about the process, even though the results ended up as a much "better" coin.
  In my gallery I usually mention if a coin has been stripped and repatinated, and I would always do so if I was selling a coin, out of honesty and common decency...
   However, IMHO, these practices I have used on my own and the occasional friends coins are a million miles away from removing metal from a coin and then passing it on as original.... Or even as "lightly smoothed" , " lightly tooled" or whatever.... Once you intentionally remove metal you are fundamentally altering the coin, and it will never again be original.
   Just my broad English penny's worth !!
 Have a great weekend guys!

Lee.
 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: otlichnik on January 30, 2016, 03:09:01 pm
I think that you noted the key issue Lee.  Transparency and honesty.

People want to buy a tooled coin, fine.  A re-patinated one, fine.  If all were labelled honestly as such then it would be fine from a consumer's point of view.  Buy what you want, use your own judgement re price variation.

That said, Andrew's question is interesting.  Let's say that there are two Andrew McCabe's in parallel universes.  Andrew alpha lists everything he thinks might have been done to a coin - tooling, smoothing, over-cleaning, re-patination, etc.  Andrew beta simply lists the coins.  What is the difference in prices realized?

Shawn


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Andrew McCabe on January 30, 2016, 10:32:24 pm
I think that you noted the key issue Lee.  Transparency and honesty.

People want to buy a tooled coin, fine.  A re-patinated one, fine.  If all were labelled honestly as such then it would be fine from a consumer's point of view.  Buy what you want, use your own judgement re price variation.

That said, Andrew's question is interesting.  Let's say that there are two Andrew McCabe's in parallel universes.  Andrew alpha lists everything he thinks might have been done to a coin - tooling, smoothing, over-cleaning, re-patination, etc.  Andrew beta simply lists the coins.  What is the difference in prices realized?

Shawn


I'm not sure this Andrew alpha actually reflects me, so I wanted to pull back on expectations. I do NOT list everything that might have happened to a coin. Here is among the defects I would not list

1. Where a coin's surface looks like a moonscape, and the photo shows that clearly, there's nothing to say. Likewise if there's a piece missing from the edge, a big hole, or anything else my 10 year old daughter could point out to me.

2. Where a coin has been inexpertly cleaned resulting in obvious damage to surfaces, and the photo shows that clearly, likewise. This includes cleaning that has attempted to highlight the design and kinda botched it up, cut up the surfaces, removes some patina but not in a pretty way. What can one say? "Ugly coin"? That's for the buyer to assess. (but in contrast if it's the type of cleaning that caused fine surface scratches that are not plainly visible, especially to silver, then that absolutely should be mentioned).

3. Where a coin has been smoothly cleaned to a gloss finish like one smooths a jewel, with a buffed patina. That's how nice bronzes were generally cleaned in olden times, rubbed, and one can for example easily see an old patina aes grave with such surfaces that a modern cleaner wouldn't do. This was a matter of taste and practice. Modern repatination falls into the same bucket. I don't like the latter but many people consider it acceptable.

4. Where a major auction house (NAC, CNG) has already mentioned an interference with a given coin, and I'm reselling it, I'll generally use exactly the same wording, if it was reasonable at the time.

5. I don't grade my own coins for sale, my vendor (Roma) does. The buck stops with me saying to Richard "please mention such and such an issue", and he'll then use his conventional term. "May have been mounted"; "coin appears to be plated" for example.

Buyers have a duty to examine photos and buy on the basis of the photo and any descriptive modifiers. Caveat emptor.

Sellers / consignors duty is to point out issues that may not be obvious from a photo such as a deliberately recut (strengthened) design, i.e. tooling, or where parts of a coins surface has been selectively smoothed with some metal removal in a way such as to highlight the areas that have not been smoothed, or where there has been a repair or a plugged hole or a mended break and such like, or fine surface damage to silver due to abrasive cleaning. Such less visible enhancements that materially affect a coin should be mentioned.

But, with these exceptions excluded, it's otherwise caveat emptor. Know the seller, know your coins, and buy per the photo and description. A well taken photo is in itself transparency. It's only what's not obvious from a photo that really needs explanation.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on April 11, 2016, 09:29:57 am
Ugly tooled lycian stater coming up for sale   ::) :o ;D


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on April 15, 2016, 11:39:12 am
Hadrian
already 17 bid and 123 euro it will go up further


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on May 11, 2016, 07:53:03 am
Surprised to find this one on a prominent dealer's site (I informed him of the oversight).  Allegedly unpublished.  Some think the coin is an outright fake.  One thing is for sure, this one has been badly tooled.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Molinari on May 18, 2016, 06:13:56 am
This one is really upsetting, especially since I need the type and would have paid a few hundred for even a really worn specimen.  Now it is utterly worthless.  In fact, it is worse than that, it has negative value.  One's collection becomes worse by containing this coin.

Acheloios will have his revenge. Just look at Sophocles' Trachiniae, in which we witness the excruciatingly painful death of Herakles, who got exactly what he deserved!:

Herakles: "Pallas, ah Pallas, it strikes me again! O child, I beseech you,
pity your father: draw forth your blameless sword from its scabbard:
strike off my head and end the distress..."



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on May 18, 2016, 03:34:27 pm
on auction now at a renowned auction house, i think they missed it, other coin they write "Heavily smoothed"

Hadrian. AE Sestertius (22.80 g), AD 117-138 VF. Rome, ca. AD 120-122. IMP CAESAR TRAIANVS HADR-IANVS AVG P M TR P COS III, laureate bust of Hadrian right, slight drapery on far shoulder. Reverse: MONETA AVGVSTI, S C across field, Moneta standing facing, head left, holding scales and cornucopiae. RIC 586b. Glossy dark green and brown patina. Very Fine


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Odysseus on May 24, 2016, 05:32:57 pm
Bronze nach 241 v. Chr. Sizilien VF

Price:   500,00 EUR

Sizilien Bronze nach 241 v. Chr.
Grade: VF | Abbreviations
Catalog: Calciati I, S. 384, Em. 7
Bronze nach 241 v. Chr. 8.46 g. Kopf des Herakles / Triskeles mit geflügeltem Medusenhaupt. Calciati I, S. 384, Em. 7 Selten Sehr schön
Sizilien

.......................................................

No comment.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10310302t

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85998663


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on May 25, 2016, 12:54:03 am
Sestertius Hadrian 117-138 A.D.

The coin is authentic and it dates from the reign of the ruler represented in it.

Material: Bronze

Diameter: 31-33 mm

Weight  : 25,2 g


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: areich on May 25, 2016, 01:56:16 am
It makes you physically sick to look at it.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on September 18, 2016, 11:53:02 pm
on Auction




Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on September 20, 2016, 02:56:03 am
In a German auction, maroneia stater, it would have been a cute coin if the vandals didn't re-engrave the grapes and tried to smooth out the corrosion


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: paparoupa on September 26, 2016, 01:17:14 am
Kyzikos stater (ex-prospero)

poor boy visited the hairdresser against his will  :o ::)


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Zenon M on September 28, 2016, 12:01:43 pm
Constantius Gallus: an unworthy caesar but a handsome man...
 ;)
ZM


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Auer on October 19, 2016, 04:33:20 pm
On a well-known selling platform. The lion's face and mane are a modern masterpiece.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on November 10, 2016, 02:56:16 pm
uglier 


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on December 20, 2016, 05:28:55 am
 >:(


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on December 21, 2016, 03:27:48 pm
noted as tooled in auction.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on December 21, 2016, 03:40:14 pm
same auction, only noted smoothed seems also tooled
Obv.
drapery
Rev.
Toga
Head Hadrian?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on December 27, 2016, 02:00:28 pm
ebay under smoothed


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on February 07, 2017, 02:03:01 am
maybe Graffiti "smile" so in ancient times


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: bakkar on March 02, 2017, 11:39:15 am
The ugliest tooled Justinian follis.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on March 02, 2017, 11:50:18 am
Face doesn't look tooled to me.

An ancient imitation ("barbarous")?


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: bakkar on March 02, 2017, 12:20:10 pm
Yes Curtis, this is an ancient imitation, but also tooled on the face.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: curtislclay on March 02, 2017, 12:37:11 pm
As I said, face doesn't look tooled to me.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: bakkar on March 02, 2017, 01:12:04 pm
In hand, eyes, nose, moustache and lips look carved deeply. However, expert eyes have the final decision.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on March 05, 2017, 03:06:52 am
Seller calls this smoothing but leaves out the re-cutting


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Martin B4 on March 12, 2017, 12:28:46 am
Troas Sigeion, 6,90g, 18 mm
Near XF !   ;D,  actually 15 bids  :(

Greetings
Martin


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Zenon M on April 12, 2017, 12:56:12 am
"Agathocles of Syracuse, Sicily. Large Greek Bronze Coin 317-289 BC. 31 mm.
Horses charging left. Horseman on right. Above dolphin. Below, a collection of tools or arms.
Head of the water nymph Arethusa, patron deity of Syracuse. Dolphin at right edge behind head.
(...)
This coin is guaranteed to be authentic. (...)"

No comment...

Zenon M.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Randygeki(h2) on April 12, 2017, 02:58:19 am
Oh snap!   lol


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Din X on August 01, 2017, 07:33:01 am
Altered silver, grafity and scratches removed on obverse


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Din X on August 01, 2017, 07:34:32 am
Some light smoothing ^^


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: n.igma on September 13, 2017, 09:00:16 pm
A very worthy example of the tooled genre here.....

No mention of the obvious tooling, but a classic statement regarding the dotted border......  "border dots drilled around obverse" ... now that's what I call serious tooling!

Seleukid Kingdom. Antiochos I Soter. 281-261 B.C. Æ (16 mm, 2.63 g, 11 h). Seleukeia on the Tigris. Laureate head of Apollo facing slightly right / ΒΑΣΙΛΕ[ΩΣ] ΑΝΤΙΟΧΟ[Υ], Nike standing right, erecting trophy; uncertain controls. SC 389; HGC 9, 178. Rare. Reddish-brown patina, porosity on reverse, border dots drilled around obverse. Very fine.

And despite the butchery it is graded "Very Fine".


Who writes these descriptions? Laughable really!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on October 01, 2017, 05:02:09 am
Hadrian not sure if reverse also was done


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Steve P on October 01, 2017, 07:02:54 am
Wow, there are some pretty wild & obvious examples (fun thread)

Ummm, I have an example that kind of fits into this thread ...

Bosporian Kings, Sauromates I
Æ 48 Units

Date: circa 98-104 AD
Size: 27.94 mm
Weight: 9.49 grams
Obverse: TIBEPIOC IOYΛIOC BACIΛEYC CAYPOMATHC, Sauromates seated right on curule chair, holding sceptre tipped with the head of Trajan
Reverse: TEIMAI BACIΛEωC CAYPOMATOY, Round shield with spear, surrounded by battle axe, horse head, helmet, and sword in scabbard, mark of denomination (MH) below
Attribution: MacDonald 417
Description: A nice example with light tooling and smoothing typical for this issue. VF/VF

Man, I still love this cool coin ...




Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on October 26, 2017, 12:21:54 am
auw


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on November 03, 2017, 07:04:28 am
Well-detailed specimen Very fine



Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on November 13, 2017, 10:48:59 am
Ebay of course


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on January 08, 2018, 11:06:01 am
 ???


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on March 08, 2018, 12:12:11 pm
Poids :      26,3 g

Diamètre : 33 mm.

Qualité  : TTB  regravé

shame


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on April 05, 2018, 06:45:10 am
this sestertius is totally destroyed via tooling

1e legend COS V P P should be COS III
2e holding child made into cornucopia
3e obverse bust tooled
4e sand applied after tooling

Vcoin seller changed after mailing into
"Good VF, some tooling"


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: OldMoney on April 23, 2018, 09:16:51 am
One of no less than three notable and horribly tooled items sold at a recent auction.
At least this one sold relatively cheaply:

Brief description:
JULIA TITI, Augusta, daughter of Titus, (A.D.79-81), . . . <snip>
Light brown toning, some tooling and cleaning, otherwise very fine and scarce.

"some tooling"!

Top image from latest sale, lower image from an earlier sale.

Others to follow.

- Walter


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: OldMoney on April 23, 2018, 09:27:57 am
The second of no less than three notable and horribly tooled items sold at a recent auction.
Incredibly, this sold for almost $5,000!

Brief description:
NERO, (A.D. 54-68), AE sestertius, . . . <snip>
Carefully tooled, otherwise good very fine, with attractive light brown patina and rare.

"Carefully tooled"!

Top image from latest sale, lower image from an earlier sale at same venue.

another to follow.

- Walter


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: OldMoney on April 23, 2018, 09:45:40 am
The third of no less than three notable and horribly tooled items sold at a recent auction.
This time it sold for over $3,300 (previously sold for over $5,000)!

Brief description:
FAUSTINA JUNIOR, wife of Marcus Aurelius, (died A.D. 175), AE sestertius, . . . <snip>
About as struck, extremely fine or better and very rare as such.

"About as struck"! No mention of tooling whatsoever.

Top image from latest sale, middle image from an earlier sale at same venue, lower image
from a prior sale at a different venue.

There were others, but these seem to be among the worst of them.

- Walter


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on April 23, 2018, 10:06:08 am
very very sad
,

thank you for sharing


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: OldMoney on April 30, 2018, 03:48:57 am
Here is a laughable and ridiculous example of the tooler's failure of both thought
and/or imagination. Stupidity at its finest. Such a waste of a previously good coin.

- Walter


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on April 30, 2018, 06:42:48 am
Not a bad Tooled as above, what irritates me, is the "Very fine; tooled." when on auction

if Tooled you can not say very fine


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: cmcdon0923 on August 13, 2018, 08:41:50 am
Currently being offered on a "well known" online auction site......


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on August 14, 2018, 06:25:20 am
nice


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: n.igma on September 22, 2018, 10:47:18 pm
Attached image refers
Seller description:
Phoenicia, Tyre. ‘Uzzimilk. Ca. 347-332 B.C. AR shekel (18 mm, 8.25 g, 3 h). RY 3 (347/6 B.C.). Melqart riding hippocamp right, above waves and dolphin / Owl standing left, head facing, crook and flail over shoulder. Cf. HGC 10, 349. Rare with owl facing to left. Surfaces smoothed. Very fine.

Now that's what I call 'aggressive smoothing' on the reverse!


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Meepzorp on October 07, 2018, 03:33:31 am
Hi folks,

There is an ancient coin [REMOVED BY ADMIN] In that auction, there is a Campania, Hyria coin for sale. It caught my attention for 2 reasons. First, the dealers used a photo of that coin in their bulk email announcing the auction. Second, I specialize in collecting Magna Graecia, Campania coins. That coin was issued in Hyria, which is believed to have merged with Nola, which is very close to my maternal grandparents' home town (Maddaloni).

When I visited their website, I immediately clicked on that coin and enlarged the photo. What I saw was frightening. The obverse portrait was clearly severely and horribly tooled. It looks odd. It does not match any known examples of that issue. It has numerous scrape marks and cuts. Also, the obverse portrait and hair are smooth, but the entire rest of the coin has porosity. It is a shame that someone ruined what could have been a beautiful Campania coin.

The text description for that coin did not state that the coin was tooled.

I emailed Nick Molinari for confirmation. He confirmed my suspicion.

So, I emailed the dealer and informed him of my thoughts regarding this coin. I also advised him that the ethical thing to do would be for him to disclose this fact in the text description.

He responded immediately. Apparently, he was totally unaware of the horrible tooling. I seem to have caught him off guard. After all, as I mentioned above, he used a photo of that coin in the email announcing the auction.

He thanked me for providing that information. Within a span of less than 48 hours, he modified the auction text description to state "tooled obverse". I was pleasantly surprised that he added that phrase in a timely manner. He did the ethical thing, and he should be commended for that.

Meepzorp


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on October 11, 2018, 12:35:45 pm
heavily smoothed and tooled with the fourth soldier on the reverse having been removed


Title: sad Tooling
Post by: okidoki on November 18, 2018, 02:48:34 pm
 Molto rara - Leggeri ritocchi, ma di buona qualità generale

in my eyes.
obverse
legend different in style.
bust/ noose tooled

bidding starts at 2500€


Title: Re: sad Tooling
Post by: djmacdo on November 18, 2018, 03:36:38 pm
More tooling that that--hair and beard on the obverse, virtually all the drapery on the reverse, and the fields smoothed.  Damn shame!


Title: Re: sad Tooling
Post by: Hydatius on November 19, 2018, 06:25:21 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-jytIyB05s

Richard


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on November 21, 2018, 11:30:33 am
 leicht bearbeitet, sonst gutes sehr schön


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on December 01, 2018, 12:27:47 pm
obvious


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on December 01, 2018, 12:30:43 pm
Antinous

its tooled on legend H into E, so probably the lips are also tooled auction house did not note it.


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Hydatius on December 02, 2018, 07:35:06 am
Is it just me or is this tooled, particularly the reverse (look at those rowers)? The description mentions only 'a few cleaning marks'.

Richard


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on December 02, 2018, 07:43:29 am
Is it just me or is this tooled, particularly the reverse (look at those rowers)? The description mentions only 'a few cleaning marks'.

Richard

older topic
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=116604.0


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Steve P on December 02, 2018, 07:59:36 am
It's very unfortunate that somebody tried to "improve" that Hadrian coin, but ended-up decreasing its appeal and probably decreasing its value (it is/was an incredibly cool coin)

  :-\


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: Hydatius on December 03, 2018, 06:03:10 am
older topic
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=116604.0

Thanks for the link! So it continues to be sold without a correct description....

Richard


Title: Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
Post by: okidoki on March 17, 2019, 12:34:54 pm
Make it sticky?