FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
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hi, can anyone help me with an i.d on a late byzantine gold coin i have.
it measures about 23mm, and weighs about 4.3 grams.
i purchased it a few years ago at an antiques fair, and have just come across it again while sorting out my collection.
many thanks, ade
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Gold Hyperper
Empire of Nicaea John III Vatatses
(1222-54)
Mint of magnesia, second coinage
much like the Thessalonica issues of John II Comenus, Emperor with a round cut beard instead of the forked beard in his silver trachea
Attribution is debated
cordially
cw
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Unfortunately your coin is fake and i think its not even gold... :-\
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fake? what makes you say that.
as to not being gold, i am sure it is. the green marks on the one side you see are just particles from the box i stored it in, i didnt notice them until after uploading the picture.
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Monty, try to scratch your coin with a needle and i think something white will show beneath. I am sure it is fake and i am almost sure it is not gold. Please let me know what will happen if you scratch it or cut the edge with a knife.
I cant explain you why the coin if fake (style mostly, edges, too heavy for that cut shape).
Waiting for the result.
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hi, i can go one better than scratching.
as an antiques dealer i have an acid testing kit gold/silver.
i am reluctant to use this method on coins normally, but i have done so in this case. i can confirm the coin is in fact gold.
i have been looking now i have an I.D on wildwinds, and have to honest am happy with the comparison with some of the listed coins.
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For people who have seen many (too many...) Byzantine coins, it is very obvious that this coin is fake, even if they
can not immediately justify it.
It has to do with the flan, the shape of the figures, the color and other many details which you "feel" that are not correct.
Please look side by side the specimen that Plami suggested and yours.
Apart from the loros, look the distances between the two bodies, the emperors right hand (I checked two more copies and
the emperors hand is sooo different), the akakia he holds in his left hand, Virgin's right hand, the details and length
of Virgin's clothing (right side) etc etc.
Sorry...
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hi, thankyou for the reply. no need to say sorry, i just wanted some idea as why it is a fake. at the end of the day, i have a lump of gold if nothing else.
i still have doudts though. i have looked on wildwinds, and there are some in a very similar style. short flans etc.
my next question, is it old? made by a other culture copying it (such as happened in india with early roman aureous, or perhaps as in other eastern countrys mades as a wedding gift/jewellry piece old/modern?)
thanks, ade
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in answer to some earlier posts about it being gold plated.
to acid test a piece of gold you have to file the surface back, thus breaking any plate. (i have bought and sold gold/silver for a living for about twentey years, so as i am sure you will understand i know what i'm doing when testing)
as to the quote about green crap, that is just particles on the surface, and as you will see from my redone pictures just wiped off. i simply didnt notice them when i took the first pictures.
i thought it was similar in the below link. is that possibly fake? it has the same short flan, and upright style.
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sb/sb2073-o.3.jpg http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sb/sb2073-r.3.jpg
this is a most interesting learning curve for me, thankyou for sharing your knowledge.
cheers, ade
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I will go out on a limb and say that the coin is genuine. Why? Because nobody in their right mind fakes a gold coin that: (i) is common, (ii) is only worth $200, (iii) is scyphate, (iv) is technically not even Byzantine because it is an exile issue (and therefore has an even more limited market), and (v) would need to be designed from scratch and struck rather than cast -- which is a lot more work for the counterfeiter (the arguments against authenticity are based on style and flan rather than evidence of a copy of a genuine coin).
Is this a new Byzantine gold fake that has recently entered the market? Sure it's possible, but if it is fake, is this the first specimen ever discovered? Monty, does this coin have any provenance? That is something I would want to know.
Regarding the odd flan, compare to this example:
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=166732&AucID=208&Lot=789
Regarding the distance between the emperor and the Theotokos, and the grid pattern of the loros, consider this example:
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=159380&AucID=194&Lot=625
Regarding the grid pattern of the loros, consider this example:
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=159382&AucID=194&Lot=627
Regarding the poor lettering consider this example:
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=166731&AucID=208&Lot=788
Regarding the poor craftsmanship of the emperor's hand consider this example:
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=5154&AucID=7&Lot=1492
Workmanship standards and style differences are so varied for this issue that I am not comfortable condemning the coin based on the photos, especially considering that the technical difficulties of counterfeiting a common scyphate and the limited market put this at the bottom of the list of coins I would suspect . . .
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hi Obryzum,
thankyou for your insight on this coin. i agree it seams odd faking a common coin, time better spent chasing the big bucks.
i also see from the examples you have found, my coins weight of about 4.3 grams is within the accepted range.
the coin does not have any real provenance. i purchased it as scrap gold a few years ago at an antiques fair where it was bought to me. i purchase a lot of gold and silver this way from the public.
now before any one says no would sell an item like this for scrap, let me correct you. when prices go up for metal all sorts of items get turned in, i reguarly get old and interesting gold and silver coins as scrap, i recently fished a waterloo medal out of a batch of silver.
ade
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I'm still in accordance with all the sceptics.
There are lot of byzantine coins restruck or casted with a lower catalog value - please remember the well known Nikomedia Year XII, officin B Follis of Justinian.
Most histamena of the exile period come very well struck on good modules. The one shown appears as completely different even in comparision with Obryzum's qouted ones (more than "out of stomach" feeling).
Byzantium exile gold from the time of Latin occupation seems to be a good candidate for fakes to sell without any problems vs. the governmental authorities of the "producing" middle east states. I'm pretty sure, this is a tourist fake (in exactly this sense) which was attributed as genuine more and more while changing several owning hands (every change with a little bit of profit ???)
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I don't know is this fake or is this gold or gold-plated.... we have only a photo here....the style is some unusual, but no so...the weight is to high, but no so.... but I'm almost sure - this item have been cast, not mint :-[
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hi, its not cast. there are no seams, spurs or bubbles, and the detail in the better parts of the cup inside are to good and fine for casting. there is also a small flan crack on the edge to the right of the christ figure.
ade
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The coin is cast and its covered with yellow metal maybe gold. I saw 4 such exemples on the market last year :) this one is made really good, but it screams fake for the experienced byzantine collector :) the edges are one of the good proofs of it, i think Orthodoxcoins knows what kind of marks left the byzantine scissors after the clipping ;)
The edges of this coin are almost round. Im curious to scratch the coin, what will show under the yellow layer? ;)
The coin is contemporary forgery on 101% - and i dont speak if i am not 100% sure.
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And the fact that bothers me...who told that the coins in wildwinds are 100% authentic??
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hi Alexios,
thanks again for your info.
i never said i think all the coins on wildwinds were real. in fact i asked the question could there be fakes on there :angel:
an other point, i admit i dont know byzantine coins ???, thats why i posted this here to find out more from those that do know, but i do know gold, i make a living from dealing in it as metal, i can tell you 100% this coin weather fake or real is made of gold.
i'm not saying your wrong about it being fake, i have no idea, it may well be, others say you are right on this, i do dispute your saying its not gold.
i have filed the edge (scratched if you prefer) and have acid tested it in more than one place, 100% it is actually gold and not plated.
regards ade
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And the fact that bothers me...who told that the coins in wildwinds are 100% authentic??
I almost said the same thing but... Anyway, I just came back from a coin show in Virginia and saw a few gold coins, one of them I thought looked like what Monty is showing us here. But... that coin was 100% authentic and I had no doubts whatsoever. Again, being no expert in gold coins, I will pass on further comments. However, I am still sceptical, especially as Scott mentioned today at the show, this one does not look like a typical Byzantine clipping. It is clearly too smooth around the edges.
In response to a comment above regarding faking $200 coins. Of course there are fakes of coins that are in that price range, even below that. As Alexios and Stefan said, there are many tourist fakes, especially in Turkey. There are also some really good Bulgarian "fake masters" who are still in business. I recently purchased a silver coin in the $200 range which I thought could be fake based on just the photos. When I received it and took a few high quality pics, I knew it was fake and others confirmed that too. And it was "only" $200 and was intended to be $200.
Since Alexios mostly collects gold coins, I would tend to agree with his "feel". If Val says it is a cast, then it is a cast. No questions asked :)))
Monty, why don't you do us a favor and try to take a few very good close-up pictures of the coin. Take one of the edges as well. That might help. Then hopefully we'll have a better idea.
Cheers everyone!
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There are lot of byzantine coins restruck or casted with a lower catalog value - please remember the well known Nikomedia Year XII, officin B Follis of Justinian.
That is very true, but the Justinian follis is a much easier coin to counterfeit and mass produce through casting. The market is also a lot larger -- tourists hear a lot about Justinian when they see all of the monuments, so it is natural that many of them would be interested in buying one of his coins. In contrast, few people know about John III. Why would a tourist want to buy a coin of John III?
I don't know is this fake or is this gold or gold-plated.... we have only a photo here....the style is some unusual, but no so...the weight is to high, but no so.... but I'm almost sure - this item have been cast, not mint :-[
If it was cast, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to use a real coin with better features to make the cast? Why go to the trouble of hand-making a fake in the "wrong" style and then make a cast of it?
And if Monty tells the truth when he said that he has had this coin for years, why haven't any others been discovered and reported?
I think this is a close enough question that I would want to examine the coin in hand before condemning it.
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One more thought . . . I have made this comment on the fakes board and I think it makes sense to repeat it here: When someone has already purchased a coin, I think people should be more reserved about condemning a coin than when someone posts a picture of a questionable coin that they are thinking about buying.
Speaking from experience, last August I posted images of several gold coins in my collection on the fakes board. Virtually everyone, including Alexios, piled on and said that it was "obvious" that my coins were fakes. I had some reservations about a couple of coins, but I thought it was far from "obvious" that any of the coins were fake. After reading the comments on Forum, I panicked. I started doubting every gold coin in my collection. I ended up sending seven of them to David Sear, together with a check for $280. By email, I made out the case to Mr. Sear for why I suspected that each might be a fake.
To my surprise, he authenticated all seven coins, and by the comments in his emails, he made it sound like it wasn't even a close question for any of the seven. I learned my $280 lesson: be wary of fakes, learn as much as you can my reading the helpful posts here, but take the advice you receive here with a grain of salt. People rountinely condemn coins here that David Sear certifies without hesitation.
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Alright everyone,
I think this discussion could be safely moved to "FAKE COIN DISCUSSIONS". Here is why. I received an e-mail from a highly respected numismatist in Bulgaria, who has previously examined these types of coins. He is an authority in the field and is soon going to publish a book about hyperpera, where you will likely see these coins in the "fakes" section. He first noticed these types of coins in an auction about 3 years ago. Later on he saw similar ones sold in Sofia at about $90 each. After questioning their low price, the seller addmitted that the coins are fake.
I am attaching some pictures which will hopefully convince Obryzum.
Best!
The reverse is exactly the same on Number 1 and Number 2.
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The obverse is exactly the same on Number 2 and Number 3.
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Take a look at Number 4 and Number 5.
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... and Numbers 6 and 7.
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Let's take a look at Monty's coin again and compare to the specimens above. :police: :police: :police:
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hi, thankyou for the reply. no need to say sorry, i just wanted some idea as why it is a fake. at the end of the day, i have a lump of gold if nothing else.
i still have doudts though. i have looked on wildwinds, and there are some in a very similar style. short flans etc.
my next question, is it old? made by a other culture copying it (such as happened in india with early roman aureous, or perhaps as in other eastern countrys mades as a wedding gift/jewellry piece old/modern?)
thanks, ade
And so, Monty, back to that question - the coins were most likely made in Bulgaria about 4-5 years ago. You can call them "Bulgarian Contemporary Imitative." :o :o :o :o :o :o
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I am attaching some pictures which will hopefully convince Obryzum.
Plami, you have attached evidence, and that's all I was really looking for. I never said that the coin was definitely real -- only that based on the evidence people had posted, it was too close a question to say that the coin is an "obvious" fake. Before your post, all we had was opinions, some of which seemed inconsistent. I still pose the question: Are these cast copies of real coins? If so, then all these comments about the style being wrong are off base. Are they engraved fakes? If so, were they struck or cast? Why bother to engrave seven different coins and then make casts? Are they solid metal or are they coated? The wear patterns are different on all of the coins -- how did the counterfeiter accomplish that? Basically, how were these coins made? And how deeply have they penetrated the market? How many clones have been discovered so far?
I look forward to reading the book.
Edited to add: How sure is the dealer that these coins are really counterfeit? Did the seller really admit that he knew the coins were counterfeit? Or did he just offer a refund with no questions asked? There is a big difference. Very few sellers will openly admit selling a known fake -- as this causes both a loss of face and potential liability for fraud. Have you ever heard of another case where a seller admitted that he attempted outright fraud?
Also, this seems like an unprecedented event. Seven different gold coins of the same emperor coming onto the market at the same time? Has that ever happened before? But wait, there's more: This is a virtually unknown emperor who wasn't even emperor of a real empire. How big can the market be for such coins? Who is buying them? Tourists? What kind of tourists shell out $200 for a gold coin of John III? How many tourists ever hear of John III? How big is the market for John III hyperpyra among Byzantine collectors? How many collectors have multiple specimens of this type?
If there were one or two Bulgarian fakes of John III that would make sense. But seven or more? And all with different styles and wear patterns? All coming onto the market at the same time? And without any confirmed reports for four or five years? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Call me a healthy skeptic on both sides of this issue.
Like I said, I really look forward to that book.
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Hi, firstly I would like to say I am amazed how much discussion this coin has caused.
At the end of the day this coin has always been just an obscure curiosity to me, and I posted thinking I would possibly find out what it is and then it would go back into my curiosity collection.
I would like to thank all concerned, this thread has been a wonderful education for me, and certainly give me a new interest in Byzantine coins :).
A few comments/ideas I would like to add now having read all the information.
1. This coin is made from high carat gold. I cant give an exact grading from acid testing, but certainly much higher than 18ct. (I will point out to sceptics who still think plated, that acid testing can fooled by a couple layers of plate with rhodium in-between, this however is very expensive and a skilled job, and is only really seen on very valuable items)
2. A thought on the coins posted by Plami. Lets just say for a moment, these coins are original and not fake. How did they come on the market? And why would a seller say they were fake when questioned?
A fanciful theory I have come up with (which may haves holes and be completely wrong) Some lucky person, finds a hoard of gold coins, and decides rather than hand them in, to sell them there self. Now the law in some countries about this is that the find belongs to the state and the finder only gets a small reward (in Britain you are supposed to get a market valuation reward, but I believe in some Mediterranean countries only a token) Therefore it becomes more profitable to sell the coins cheap, but still giving a higher return.
We then turn to the other question of why they say they were fake, simple, it is against the law to sell the real coins from an undeclared hoard , so if someone pushed them on the subject, it is better to say they are fake. After the person has gone satisfied with your answer, you continue to sell to tourists etc.
3. The posted Bulgarian coins are similar to my example, but so are some of the coins quoted by Obryzum from coin-archive, so at the end of the day the only real way to know (as Petzlaff suggested) is for me to have it examined in hand by a few people.
I am hoping later this year to visit the Midland Coin Fair, near Birmingham, and think this will be a good opportunity to have the coin examined by someone in hand.
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Just for extra interest, i have done a couple of scans of the edge. i think to thin for casting.
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It's a cast fake, friends, by sure!
I'll explain why latter.... now only a warning - there are more then 200 different "kinds" of "Vatatces yperpyras" on the market just now !!!! Some of them made by high technologycal centrifugal cast /like this one/! Only the high weight and the high carats /more then 20/ are the sure evidence for them.
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It's a cast fake, friends, by sure!
I'll explain why latter.... now only a warning - there are more then 200 different "kinds" of "Vatatces yperpyras" on the market just now !!!! Some of them made by high technologycal centrifugal cast /like this one/! Only the high weight and the high carats /more then 20/ are the sure evidence for them.
Dear Orthodoxcoins
I said from the beginning that I believe this coin has to be fake. But when I said fake, I ment exactly that.
Fake.
You mention above that these coins are heavy weight, high carats. If it is so, I face a mathematical problem ???.
If we take 4,5 gr of metal and 20 carats, that means approx 4gr of gold which
has a current value of about $120. Let us suppose that 5 years ago the gold worth $100.
If you have a metal value of $100+cost of artwork+ cast production + cost to depreciate machinery etc, etc we come to the same question as the police
officers when facing a crime.
Which is the motive?
We take also for granted that since these coins are sold by big auction firms between $200-250, it is very hard to be sold by the "initial sourse" for more
than $150 at the most.
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howdy friends,
what an amazing story.
I spent a long time in comparing all those pix.
There's only one reverse which has the same distinctive secret mark patterns like monty's coin: 7 jewels on collarpiece together with 2 jewels with the pendiliae. But there are very different arrangements of the lower 4 jewels on the Virgins clothing. Furthermore the distance between the to points on labarum shaft also is different.
Both coins show very clear, so no.4 and monty's are not from the same "dies".
As I mentioned above - pix only aren't worth a proof anyway.
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There are a couple of stubborn people on this board ;D ;D ;D
Additional considerations:
- A few years ago gold was obviously cheaper than nowadays. $90 for a couple of grams of gold would still generate profit to the seller.
- The seller did not view the gentleman as a real buyer. These coins were and still are intended to be "tourist fakes." Apparently, besides Obryzum and Monty, there are enough other people that are ready to spend more than $200 for a coin of Ioan III. See the example on CNG - sold for $226. You have to understand that by the time someone like Monty or Obryzum buys a fake golden coin, several people would have made profit through this chain.
- Monty's coin is fake because according to him, it is higher than 18 carats. However, according to Francesco Balducci Pegolotti, defining the type of hyperpera with three dots in a triangle as "perperi latini", the gold in this type is exactly 16 1/3 carats.
- Most of the coins in the pictures that I previously posted are over 4 grams, yet they are substantially clipped. Clipped hyperpera however have one of the following weights 3.35, 3.25, 2.85 and 2.75 g. How do you explain that?
- Graphic inconsistencies? Sure - for starters take a look at Number 1 and 2, such grapes in the propendules do not exist in Byzantine coinage.
- What is the technology of the forgery? Engraved dies? Cast? Who knows. We will find out eventually.
Cheers everyone!
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John III hyperpyra are supposed to be 16K gold, meaning the fakes would have more gold that the real coins.
Ilya Prokopov specializes in fakes originating in Bulgaria. I have both his 2006 and 2007 books. Neither book lists any of these John III hyperpyra. In fact, there are only two Byzantine coins total listed in the 2006 book (Theophilus and Isaac II) and none in 2007. A quick review of the books shows that the vast majority of counterfeiting is for Greek and Roman coins. That makes sense because that is where the large markets are. Is this a series of counterfeits that he has overlooked?
These are a couple more reasons why it is hard to beleive that Bulgarian counterfeiters went on a John III counterfeiting craze 4-5 years ago and focused great attention on John III, producing many different hyperpyra for an emperor that few people have any interest in, and using more gold than the originals are supposed to have.
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The coin is most likely fake. It is too heavy for a clipped coin. The edges appear round instead of sharp, which they should be on a clipped coin.
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I just read this entire thread, and I'm not going to comment about this particular coin, enough competent forvm members have given opinions. If I had a coin and I didnt trust that an accurate judgement based on photos alone could be made, I'd take it to an expert in hand. I think that's the only way Monty will feel confident in judgment
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Well, our beloved coin seems that is been produced in a "silver version" as well...
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I have no opinion on the authenticity of neither one of these coins, My question is that you suggest these are the same, but to my eyes they are different die strikes though admittedly quite similar?? you said silver "version" if assumed fake do the fakesters (I do not know what else to call them) re tool the die a touch to change it a bit??
curious
Cordially
cw
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A similar SILVER coin can not be authentic since such a type does not exist. I do not examine if the dies are the same or not.
I just say that a silver coin with:
obv: a seated blessing Christ
rev: the Virgin crowning an emperor who holds a labarum(hand upwards) and akakia
does not exist (at least as far as I know)
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Interesting find. As you say, Sear does not list any John III AR trachies like this with the Virgin crowning the Emperor. If it was real, it would be worth a real fortune. And If it were worth a fortune, a reputable auction house would probably have the connections to be able to figure that out. I wonder what the attribution was when the coin was sold in the 2006 auction? And now, in 2008, the coin in back on the market on eBay with a starting price of 40 pounds? That is a story that just doesn't add up, which is why I have no problem believing that this coin is a fake.
As to its relationship to the other John IIIs that have been questioned on this thread: I think the style is very good, which leads me to believe that it was cast. The doublestrike of Christ's head and the halo would be difficult to imagine and then cut. Unlike Monty's coin, this coin has a lot of eye appeal and would have a much lower production cost in silver than gold. If someone made the claim that this coin was a mass-produced cast tourist fake I would be inclined to believe it.
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Gentlemen - open your eyes please!
the advertising pic shows the coin black & white, making it a "silver" coin (which truly would be a sensation).
But without any closer look onto the original coin, I'll never would bid on it.
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which truly would be a sensation).
But why!?!? The "silver version" of Vatatces is well known fake more then 10 years!:)))))))) Even in science books you can read about "some silver examples" of this coin:)))))
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I'm afraid this seller don't offer us NOR ONE authentic coin!
Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers => Topic started by: monty on January 24, 2008, 12:57:12 pm