FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Numism => Reading For the Advanced Ancient Coin Collector => Topic started by: bpmurphy on October 21, 2007, 10:48:42 pm
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Here's a new variety Septimius Denarius, thought I'd share this with everyone.
SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS. 193-211 AD. AR Denarius (3.17 g). Emesa mint. Struck 194 AD. IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG II C, laureate head right / MINER VICT, Minerva standing left, holding Victory and spear, shield at feet right. Good VF, choice flan.
All the AVG II C obverses are rare. I have recorded the following reverse types with this obverse legend, Curtis probably has more:
BONAE SPEI - Spes walking left
BONETAE AVG - Moneta holding scales and cornucopia
BONI EVENTVS - Bonus Eventus standing left, holding plate of fruit and grain ears
CERER FRVG - Ceres standing left holding grain easrs and torch
CERER FRVGIF COS - Ceres standing left holding grain easrs and torch
CERER FRVG II COS - Ceres standing left holding grain easrs and torch
FORTVNAE REDVCI - Fortuna seated left, holding branch and cornucopia
FORTVNAE REREDVC - Fortuna seated left holding globe and cornucopia
MART VICT - Mars walking right, holding trophy over shoulder and spear
MINER VICT - Minerva standing left, holding Victory and spear, shield at feet right
MONET AVG - Moneta holding scales and cornucopia
MONETAE AVG - Moneta holding scales and cornucopia
VICTOR IVST AVG - Victory walking left, holding wreath and palm.
There are also variants of this obverse legend, one ending ....AVG II CO and one ending ... AVG II COS.
Barry Murphy
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Barry,
Spectacular new coin, thanks for offering me first crack at it!
I know three obv. dies with this II C legend. Here is your list of reverses again, annotated with the specimens I know from my casts, from BMC, and from your former collection:
BONAE SPEI - Spes walking left, formerly Barry Murphy coll.
BONETAE (sic) AVG - Moneta standing l. holding scales and cornucopia, formerly Barry Murphy coll., Phil Peck, Martin Griffiths (all 3 from the same die pair).
BONI EVENTVS - Bonus Eventus (actually Fides) standing left, holding plate of fruit and grain ears, Copenhagen, my coll. (2 rev. dies)
CERER FRVG - Ceres standing left holding grain ears and torch, formerly Berk stock
CERER FRVGIF COS - Ceres standing left holding grain ears and torch, BMC 345 note, said to be in Budapest, but I have no cast of it from my visit there, so confirmation required
CERER FRVG II COS - Ceres standing left holding grain ears and torch, Athens, BMC 345 note
FORTVNAE REDVCI - Fortuna seated left, holding branch and cornucopia, Vienna, Martin Griffiths (2 rev. dies)
FORTVNAE REREDVC (sic) - Fortuna seated left holding globe and cornucopia, BMC 364, pl. 16.5
MART VICT - Mars walking right, holding trophy over shoulder and spear, formerly Berk stock
MINER VICT - Minerva standing left, holding Victory and spear, shield at feet right, B. Murphy, see above
MONET AVG - Moneta standing l. holding scales and cornucopia, BMC 380 note, citing Reka Devnia p. 98 (2 spec. in Sofia; confirmation required)
MONETAE AVG - Moneta standing l. holding scales and cornucopia, Bickford-Smith (2 spec., both now in BM?); Martin Griffiths ex Barry Murphy coll. (2 rev. dies)
VICTOR IVST AVS (sic) - Victory walking left, holding wreath and palm, BM, Vienna, Martin Griffiths (same die pair).
Here are six new types:
BONI EVE(or I)NTVS, wheat ear between crossed cornucopias, BM ex Bickford-Smith, Vienna, BMC p. 91 (Reka Devnia hoard, pl. IV, 44) (all 3 from same die pair)
FELIC[IT] TIMPOR (sic, but not very clear), double-headed wheat ear between two cornucopias, Franchesci (Brussels) stock, 1976
FELICITAS TEMPOR, basket of fruit with three bunches of grapes hanging down from its top rim, my collection ex CNG E149, see image in my message of 13 Jan. 2008 below.
FORTVNE (sic) REDVCI, Fortuna standing l. holding rudder and cornucopia, Paris, formerly Kelly coll. (same die pair)
LEG XIIII GEM M V TR P COS, legionary eagle between 2 standards, my coll. ex Kelly, Martin Griffiths=formerly Berk stock (same die pair)
MARTI VICT, Mars adv. r. as above, BM ex Bickford-Smith, Martin Griffiths (from the same rev. die but different obv. dies)
And a seventh new type, which Lanz offered on eBay on 20 June 2009, described and illustrated in a separate message below:
FORTVAE (sic, N omitted) REDVCI, Aequitas standing l. holding scales and cornucopia
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Absolutely spectacular coin and the creation of another great list that will be invaluable to collectors of this series.
I cannot add anything much but can add some more specimens to the list of known types:-
I have examples of
BONETAE AVG
FORTVNAE REDVCI - Fortuna seated left, holding branch and cornucopia
LEG XIIII GEM M V TR P COS
MARTI VICT
MONETAE AVG (ex-Barry Murphy)
VICTOR IVST AVS (sic S for G).
Regards,
Martin
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The MONETA AVG I listed should have read just MONET AVG (I corrected that above) and my source was BMC pg. 96, 380 note (citing the Reka Devnia Hoard). The CERER FRVGIF COS also came from BMC. pg. 91, 345 note citing a specimen in Budapest. Whether either actually exist or not I can't say.
The MARTI VICT you cite Curtis I also have and left off my list for some reason, there was a specimen in Kelly, lot 1102.
I don't see the LEG XIIII you cite in Kelly. Which lot was it?
The BONI EVENTVS, crossed cornucopia I also had and left off for some reason, being Bickford-Smith 328.
The FORTVNE REDVCI in Kelly I just missed, lot 1116. Thanks for pointing that out.
The FELICIT TIMPOR is new to me. Thank you.
Barry Murphy
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The few AVG II CO coins ive ran across were minted at Emesa. Were any of them minted elsewhere?
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They would all be from Emesa. No other mints used COS on the obverse.
Barry Murphy
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"Emesa" is merely Mattingly's guess; it can't be excluded as possible mint, but there is really no concrete evidence to fix where the coins were struck.
Martin, is your LEG XIIII ex Berk list, or another specimen? I've added your five others to the list.
Barry, I have a cast of Kelly's LEG XIIII made for me by R. Bickford-Smith, and am pretty sure I bought it at the sale, but don't have the coin or catalogue at hand to check!
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Hmmm, I'll have to go back through Kelly more closely. Since I bid for you in Kelly, you'd think I would have noticed.
Barry
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Here are four related issues, each coming from only a single obv. die:
Obv. legend ending II CO (1 obv. die):
BONAE SPEI advancing l., BMC 341 pl. 15.12, Paris, formerly Berk stock (3 rev. dies, all different from the one above with II C)
BONI EVENTVC (sic), Fides standing l., Bern, formerly Berk stock (same die pair)
FELICITAS T[EMP]OR, wheat ear between two crossed cornucopias (B. Murphy stock, 2003)
INVICTO IMP TROPAEA, Trophy, Paris
INVICTO IMP TROPAEA II, Trophy, BMC 368 pl. 16.8
LEG VIII AVO (sic) TR P COS, eagle and standards, Oxford ex Walker, JNG 1978/1979, pl. 9, 4 (same die pair)
[MO]NETAE AVG seated l. holding scales and cornucopia, Doug Smith, Martin Griffiths
VICTOR IVST AVG, Victory adv. l. holding wreath and palm, eBay (image from B. Murphy), Martin Griffiths
Obv. legend ending II COS (1 obv. die):
BONAE SPEI II COS, advancing l. holding flower and raising skirt, Martin Griffiths, see image below.
FORTVNAE REDVCI II COS, standing l. holding rudder and cornucopia, my coll. ex Kelly
Obv. legend ending CO, with error CE for CAE (1 obv. die):
BONI EVENTVS, Fides standing l., ANS, a diff. rev. die than the 2 above with II C.
BONI EVENTVC (sic), same type, my coll. ex Forvm, Martin Griffiths, eBay (image from B. Murphy; all 3 from same die pair and same rev. die as above with obv. II CO)
FOTVNAE (sic) REDVCI stg. l. with rudder and cornucopia, BM ex Bickford-Smith and my coll., Vienna, formerly Barry Murphy coll., Triton VI lot (M. Melcher coll.), Doug Smith, all same die pair
MONETAE AVG stg. l., my coll., from a diff. rev. die than the 2 above with obv. II C; also Reka Devnia p. 99 (1 spec. in Sofia)
Obv. legend ending CO II (1 obv. die?):
BONA (sic).SPEI.., adv. l., BM ex L.A. Lawrence Coll., recorded from that coll. in BMC 341 note
MONETAE AVG stg. l., BMC 380 note (RD p. 99, 2 in Sofia)
COS I is also a scarce issue, but too large to list here!
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Martin, is your LEG XIIII ex Berk list, or another specimen? I've added your five others to the list.
Curtis,
It is a new specimen.
I can also add a few to the other reverse variants you mention.
I have examples as follows:-
(II CO)
BONAE SPEI
[MO]NETAE AVG (Yes my example has the MO missing too)
VICTOR IVST AVG
(CO)
BONI EVENTVC (I have one and I also saw a die matched example sell here at Forvm recently)
COS I would be large (I have about 12 reverses) but it would be interesting to try and form a list at some point.
There is another small COS II variant with the legend "IMP CA L SE SEV PER AG COS II" (single obverse die) which should be easy to list.
Regards,
Martin
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Martin,
Did you buy this AVG II CO off ebay?
I'll have a few others to add later today.
Barry
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and this....
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Did you buy this AVG II CO off ebay?
Barry,
No I did not. It was from a well known French dealer.
The second coin was an ebay purchase. A BuyItNow on ebay.es that lasted 45 seconds after posing before I bought it for a VERY small price.
Regards,
Martin
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BONETAE (sic) AVG - Moneta standing l. holding scales and cornucopia, formerly Barry Murphy coll., Phil Peck (same die pair).
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FORTVNAE REDVCI - Fortuna seated left, holding branch and cornucopia, Vienna, Martin Griffiths
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MARTI VICT, Mars adv. r. as above, BM ex Bickford-Smith, Martin Griffiths
Curtis,
For the sake of completenessI thought I would show you my three examples so that die comparison can be made and added to the list.
BONETAE AVG (same die pair)
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/normal_RI_064gs_img.jpg)
FORTVNAE REDVCI
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/normal_RI_064fz_img.jpg)
MARTI VICT
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/normal_RI_064ek_img.jpg)
I hope Curtis has the opportunity to compare the dies of the last two with his casts and then updating his list above.
With all this information together these threads should be move to the Classical Numismatics section.
I would love to create a website on these coins using my images and those of Barry from his website (with suitable permission of course) and images from other interested parties to create a detailed catalog of these series. I did start on such a project some time ago but ran out of steam. I think I should resurrect it. Seeing as many of these types listed and as many illustrated as possible would be a useful resource I think.
Expanding it to cover the 193 types and then on through COS I etc.
Opinions? Thoughts?
Regards,
Martin
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Curtis,
I have also included my LEG XIIII below for comparison (I need to take a better photograph, the coin is better than it looks):-
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/normal_RI_064gr_img.jpg)
Regards,
Martin
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A few other varities:
AVG II CO -
FELICITAS TEMPOR - Grain ear between crossed cornucopia (BPM Inventory)
INVICTO IMP TROPAE - Trophy (BMC 368 note - does this exist?)
INVICTO IMP TROPAEA II - Trophy (BMC 368 - does this exist?)
AVG C II -
BONA SPEI - Spes walking left (BMC 341 note - does this exist?)
On the LEG VIII, AVG II CO above there were two other examples I recorded, though it's possible one is the Walker coin recorded by Curtis...JNG 1978/1979, pl. 9, 4 // van Der Dussen Sale 9 (4 March 1988), lot 118.
Barry Murphy
PS. Martin, do you own the AVG COS II Quinarius?
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Here's the photo of my FELICITAS TEMPOR...
Barry
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Martin,
Your II C pieces are now entered in the list. Please show your II CO ones too so I can take account of the dies!
Your legionary one IS the same as Berk; I don't know how it got so quickly from our stock in Feb. 2006 to your collection!
Barry,
Thanks for the reminder about BM 368, INVICTO IMP TROPAEA II, which certainly exists, as pl. 16.8 shows! Plus the new FELICITAS TEMPOR, I've added both to the list.
I share your doubts about the TROPAE piece reported in BMC 368 note: they only cite Cohen, and Cohen cites Paris, where the only piece present has TROPAEA as reported above.
I think it virtually certain that David Walker's LEG VIII AVO piece is from the 1988 van der Dussen sale. That is exactly when he was collecting most intensively, and I know he regularly bought from vdD sales. I wonder, however, whether the JNG piece will turn out to be the same or a different specimen.
The CO II / BONA SPEI coin you report from BMC 341 note, in L.A. Lawrence Coll., is exactly the coin I list above as now being in BM, ex LAL. So that too exists, with dots as I show above.
Martin,
I'm not eager to list the IMP CA...COS II dies, since I doubt my record of them is anywhere near complete. Only a missing letter or two distinguishes them from the common COS II coins, so I suspect that many of them have passed unnoticed in sale catalogues and collections. I have the following legend variants in my casts:
IMP CA L SEP SEV PER AVG COS II, 4 obv. dies
Same but SE for SEP, 2 obv. dies.
Same but SE for SEP and AV for AVG, 1 obv. die.
I have no cast of the variety you report, same but SE for SEP and AG for AVG.
I think there's a good chance that these coins are from a different mint, since they have a different style, more like IMP II coins, as well as the variant obverse legends.
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Curtis,
The JNG and van Der Dussen coins were different coins, though struck from the same dies. The JNG coins is a nice EF, the van der Dussen VF with some toning spots.
Barry
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Please show your II CO ones too so I can take account of the dies!
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Your legionary one IS the same as Berk; I don't know how it got so quickly from our stock in Feb. 2006 to your collection!
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I'm not eager to list the IMP CA...COS II dies, since I doubt my record of them is anywhere near complete.
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I think there's a good chance that these coins are from a different mint, since they have a different style, more like IMP II coins, as well as the variant obverse legends.
Curtis,
I bought the legionary quite recently (last few months). I will add the HJB history to my records however as I was unaware of it.
The CA..COS II types are a sub-theme of mine and hence of interest to me. I have two examples while Doug Smith has a third from the type I mentioned all from the same obverse die but all with different reverses. The possibility of a different mint is fascinating though we will probably never know.
Here are my II CO examples:-
BONAE SPEI:-
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/normal_RI_064ez_img.jpg)
MONETAE AVG:-
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/normal_RI_064fo_img.jpg)
VICTOR IVST AVG
Illustrated above by Barry.
Regards,
Martin
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Hi,
"Emesa" is merely Mattingly's guess; it can't be excluded as possible mint, but there is really no concrete evidence to fix where the coins were struck.
On the subject ofthe eastern Severan mints hasanyone had the opportunity to see Butcher's appraisal of the denarii of Severus in his "Coins of Roman Syria". I only briefly took a look and intend to have a better look tomorrow night but I think he's pushing for Antioch. If no-one else reports back sooner I'll try to summarise his thoughts when I've had the opportunity to properly read it.
Regards,
Mauseus
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SS obviously had family links with Emesa via his wife, but apart from that, why prefer the place over Antioch for a mint?
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By the way. The AVG II C, VICTOR IVST AVS has a reverse die link to the 193 (AVG) issue.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/normal_RI_064ee_img.jpg)
Regards,
Martin
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SS obviously had family links with Emesa via his wife, but apart from that, why prefer the place over Antioch for a mint?
because Antioch was the city which supports Pescennius Niger in his struggle against SS and the mint for his coins. Moreover Antioch was punished after the war and Laodicea (also an SS mint) was promoted.
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Makes sense. Thanks.
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Here is another new rev. type in the issue, which I acquired from CNG E179, Dec. 2007, 221:
Same II C obv. die as Martin's BONETAE AVG, above; rev. FELICITAS TEMPOR, basket of fruit with three bunches of grapes hanging down from its upper rim.
I have added the type to my inventory above.
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A recent addition to my collection.... I am very pleased within despite the obvious damage to the coin. It combines a scarcer obverse die with a rare II COS reverse, which in turn is a previously unknown variant... I will be cross posting into the II COS thread so I apologise to those who don't like cross posts.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/normal_RI_064ib_img.jpg)
Regards,
Martin
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I would like to see this thread promoted to the "Classical Numismatics" section.
Regards,
Martin
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Another AVG II C, MARTI VICT came on the market recently. Selling on a well known auction site for £54.00. It looks like the same reverse die though the images aren't the best.
Regards,
Martin
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The following new type was offered by Lanz on eBay on 20 June 2009. Unfortunately someone else bought it with a bid of 156 euros, around $225, over my bid of 155; the next highest bid was 60 euros!
FORTVAE (sic, N omitted) REDVCI, Aequitas standing l. holding scales and cornucopia.
17 mm, 3.0 gr, 6 h. From the same obv. die as the MINER VICT coin with which Barry M. started this thread. See Lanz's photos below.
This combination of the FORTVNAE REDVCI legend with a type of Aequitas is reported on a denarius of Pescennius Niger by Cohen 25 (in a private collection), but does not seem to have been attested before for either Septimius Severus or Julia Domna, at least I can't find any such coin in BMC or RSC.
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Sorry Curtis! I will add my own photo when it arrives.
Martin
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As promised, here is my own photo of the above coin, now that I have it in hand.
I bought this as a celebration of finally getting myself a job after having been out of work for over 6 months.
Regards,
Martin
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Curtis,
Could it have been a mix-up of a Moneta type and FOTVNAE legend rather than Aequitas, which would be a completely new type?
Regards,
Martin
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I have recently added a new II CO coin to my collection. I would appreciate it is Curtis could add it to the list.
Same II CO die. Reverse is a new type to this series as far as I can tell.
MINER VICT, Minerva seated left on round shield, holding Victory on globe and spear (Victory facing right, holding palm over shoulder and raising wreath to Minerva).
There is a MINER VICT, seated type in RIC on Page 139 in the COS I series, described simply as Roma seated on shield, citing RD. I am not sure why it should be described as Roma rather than Minerva left but I have chosen to describe my coin as Minerva with the evidence of the MINER VICT legend. BMCRE (p. 90) also describes as Roma, confirming the existence of the RD coin from the G. R. Arnold collection. Perhaps someone can explain to me why it should be Roma as per RIC and BCMRE.
This coin has really made my day. Whilst it really is a million miles away in quality from the MINER VICT, Minerva standing coin that started this thread, it is still a nice find. The seller simply described it as "Unknown Roman coin".
Regards,
Martin
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Not a new type this time I am afraid but I have managed to obtain an example (not in great condition but everything is there to allow attribution) of a II CO obverse die combined with the BONI EVENTVC reverse. This is already called out in the list above but it is another example to be added to the known examples.
I owe Lars a drink for helping me out with passing payment into the Euro zone on my behalf on this one.... ;)
Regards,
Martin
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An example of the II CO, LEG VIII AVO (sic) TR P COS, eagle and standards sold on ebay recently for $178.50. Four bidders bid over $100 for it so I guess several people recognised it for what it was despite it being described as a "Barbarian Imitation". It was far too rich for my blood. I hope that it found a good home. I thought it worth noting it here.
Martin
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An example of the II CO, LEG VIII AVO (sic) TR P COS, eagle and standards sold on ebay recently for $178.50. Four bidders bid over $100 for it so I guess several people recognised it for what it was despite it being described as a "Barbarian Imitation". It was far too rich for my blood. I hope that it found a good home. I thought it worth noting it here.
Martin
Curtis listed this reverse in his October 23, 2007, post to this thread but this one only shows the VO so I assume the VIII A was clear on others. The price realized by such a coin is really a show of opinions. One might think a coin with so little reverse legend and relatively weak IICO might go cheaper and I thought the poor ID might sneak this one under $100 but I was wrong. Coin collectors are strange in the way they pay for high grade details like a laurel wreath but can accept legends off flan that make the coin what it is. Would you prefer a worn to Fine example with outlines of every letter or a relatively unworn coin identifiable by die data but missing the significant parts of the legend? Some of my most rare 'Emesa' are quite worn or have other issues but that's probably why I could get them. This coin was pretty unless you hold all those missing letters against it. Obviously a few people like it. Part of me wants to know what the seller thinks at this result. I suspect he expected the coin to go for less but will now put higher starts on coins that actually are barbarous.
What do you read for TRPCOS?
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There is definitely an error in the exergue legend, CR P COS instead of TR P COS is certain.
There MAY be an additional letter before the CR P, but it is unclear on the specimen above and mostly off flan on Oxford's spec. of which I have a plaster cast.
Maybe Barry M. can check the EF JNG specimen for this detail.
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Here is a recent addition to my collection.
It is a II CO, MONETAE AVG, Moneta seated type, it has the same obverse die as my example above but come from a different reverse die with a different reverse legend break.
Regards,
Martin
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Here is an AVG II C combined with a VICTOR IVST AVG reverse to sit alongside the IVST AVS already known.
Regards,
Martin
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Does this reverse exist with the standard COSII obverse? We have seen it with all of the variations but I can't recall seeing it with plain old COSII.
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Doug,
I have never seen the IVST AVG on a COS II. IVST AVG and SEVER AVG appear on COS I and then I have only seen SEVER AVG on the COS II. The SEVER AVG are generally of the same reverse type though I have a Victory walking right, holding trophy in both hands type on a COS I.
Regards,
Martin
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My COSI SEVER with two hands is such a dog it is hard to be too certain about the reverse details but the obverse is a very familiar die. I have never seen a COSI SEVER with the normal pose and warn to be careful on this one since you have to rule out it being a COSI - I as shown on my specimen. Is yours a certain and otherwise known COSI die?
I have gone on the theory that the last IVST predated the first SEVER but am unclear on when the change took place. I do not expect to find a COSII IVST but was surprised when the two hands SEVER showed up with a COSI obverse.
I suppose this is also the place to repeat the call for anyone to show a Septimius obverse used with the seated IVST reverse as seen with Julia. It seems the dies should have been in the room together so there is always a chance they met.
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Here is my two hands SEVER...
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/normal_RI_064ey_img.jpg)
I don't have a normal pose COS I SEVER though!
Regards,
Martin
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Die dupe. Someday we need a thread to establish which die was used with the most different reverses. The PEPT COSI has to be up there with one of the AVG dies and the Julia obverse shown here was used quite a bit, too.
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Here is a II CO that I missed recently (snipe failure, grrrrr.). There is quite a bit of damage to the obverse but it is still recognisable. It has a MONETAE AVG, Moneta standing reverse.
Martin
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Another II CO that I missed recently was part of a bunch of other denarii. II CO with FORTVNAE REDVCI, Fortuna seated with rudder and cornucopia. I have included the image with the other coin from the lot.
Martin
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Or RDVCI? I don't see the E.
A shame you didn't acquire it, but thanks for posting.
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I thought that it might be RDVCI too based on the spacing but wasn't sure enough and without the coin in hand didn't want to make the call. I had to work away and the hotel I went to didn't have broadband! This one ended whilst I was away and so I missed it! I thought it worth bringing to the attention of those interested in the type though.
Regards,
Martin
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Another addition, purchased on ebay (September 2011), although the type is already mentioned.
I understand from Martin that for this rev type there are two dif dies ?
IMP CAE L SEP SE_V PERT AVG II C
MO_NET_A_E AVG
Moneta standing left, holding scales and cornucopiae.
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Sorry,
the obv,
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Here is a II CO, MARTI VICT that I missed out on. It was part of a mixed lot and included an Alexandrian ROMAE AETERNAE. The lot was simply too rich for my blood though I still have some pangs about having missed it. I was hoping that they would have turned up on the boards...
Regards,
Martin
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You have to wonder if the buyer saw the coin of interest or perhaps liked the others and will throw away the Septimius.
Reading over this old thread I see a post that I'm sure has been covered in other posts but for the benefit of someone new who reads this might be best updated here:
Doug,
I have never seen the IVST AVG on a COS II. IVST AVG and SEVER AVG appear on COS I and then I have only seen SEVER AVG on the COS II. The SEVER AVG are generally of the same reverse type though I have a Victory walking right, holding trophy in both hands type on a COS I.
Regards,
Martin
See below:
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I was hoping that this coin would have appeared in this thread, having been bought by one of our members???
An example of the AVG II C, BONI EVENTVS, Cornucopiae type sold recently on ebay. I bid all my available funds but was still outbid - ho hum.
I thought it worth adding to the thread for the record.
Martin
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Same dies as the three I reported above: BM ex Bickford-Smith, Vienna, Reka Devnia hoard pl. IV, 44. One can see why I said that the rev. legend is EVENTVS or EVINTVS!
I didn't bid on the nice new one myself, since the BM doesn't need it!
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Not me Martin. I didn't see it.
Barry
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I had the opportunity to buy the II CO, LEG VIII AVO (sic) CR P COS coin that I missed out on some time ago and thought it worth adding it to the thread with a decent image of it. There is something before the C but it could be a die break. The S at the end of COS is far from conclusive too.
Regards,
Martin
[CLICK TO ENLARGE]
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My II CO, BONAE SPEI suffers from an off centre reverse. I recently had the opportunity to obtain an example with full legends and could not pass it by.
I don't usually buy duplicates but in this case I couldn't resist.
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And yet another addition to this thread.
I have added another AVG II C, MONETAE AVG, Moneta standing to my collection. I now have two examples each coming from different obverse and reverse dies. I have attached both to this thread. The first coin is my older coin the second coin is my newest addition.
Martin
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Another addition to this thread from a recent purchase.
This time an AVG II C, BONI EVENTVS.
Martin
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Another addition to add,
Reverse BONAE SPET
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A while since I was able to add one.
An AVG II C, CERER FRVG.
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And yet another addition to this thread.
I have added another AVG II C, MONETAE AVG, Moneta standing to my collection. I now have two examples each coming from different obverse and reverse dies. I have attached both to this thread. The first coin is my older coin the second coin is my newest addition.
Martin
I have added another example to my collection from a third reverse die.
Martin
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Added another for this thread..
Obv:– IMP CE L . SEP SE-V PERT AVG . CO, laureate head right
Rev:– FOTVNA-E (sic) R-EDVCI, Fortuna standing left, holding rudder in right hand, cornucopia in left
An uneven strike but a nice enough example.
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Martin,
I'm glad you got this from John. I was going to order it for you but forgot about it for a few hours and when I went back it was gone.
Barry Murphy
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Barry,
I snapped it up pretty quickly. I didn't spend any time thinking about it.
Regards,
Martin
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Much nicer than mine (but a die dupe):
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A cross posting in two threads(also in II COS thread) for completeness.
Obv:– IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG II COS, Laureate head right
Rev:– FORTVNAE REDVCI II COS, Fortuna standing left holding rudder and cornucopia
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It's unfortunate (I think) that "unpublished" still means "I checked in RIC and didn't find it". This coin is listed (#582) in last year's The Complete Coinage of Septimius Severus, though possibly this same one.
I have this section in mind for a refresh so if you or anyone else reading this finds new variants would you please consider contacting me via email?
Ras
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I have never heard of "The Complete Coinage of Septimius Severus"
Barry Murphy
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Ras,
I was unaware that it existed. The fact that you have published it as an ebook is interesting especially as I am not longer able to import books to the UK from the USA since postal charges went through the roof.
To which coin are you referring with #582 as there are many coins illustrated in this thread?
The Unpublished title in this thread (started in 2007) related to the MINER VICT example. Since then the thread has been used to capture the examples of these rare legends that members obtain.
I somewhat resent your "I checked in RIC and didn't find it". I have looked back through many posts in this thread ann that certainly isn't how this thread reads.
I check in RIC, BMCRE, RSC, Cohen, Reyka Devnia and my Bickford-Smith offprint when I look at this series as well as checking some major online reources focussed on this series. To be unaware of an ebook that you published last year is understandably "unfortunate" for you.
I have no idea whether the many coins that I have only checked against the references above that I have access to and are apparently of interest to you are of interest or not and other than purchasing your ebook would have no idea whether they really are "unpublished".
Regards,
Martin
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I have never heard of "The Complete Coinage of Septimius Severus"
Barry Murphy
Nor I. Is is online, an eBook or a hard copy?
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My bad - I hope you are not offended. I had just read another post elsewhere on this forum about Procopius not in RIC and see it frequently elsewhere. And yes, I am a remarkably poor marketer. In fact, I hate everything about publicizing and ads (not good when you're an independent publisher!) but with the closure of The Celator I'm really at a loss on how to get the word out.
http://www.coinbooks.com/esylum_v16n38a03.html
These really are just draft sections towards the third edition of my book. I have published a couple others too:
http://www.dirtyoldbooks.com/CC/index.html
My apologies again
Ras
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Ras,
So I downloaded the book and looked up 6 coins that I've published here or elsewhere and none of them show up in your Complete Coinage.
I then tried to look for a coin with your reverse legend 355, TR P IIII IMP II COS II, which you list as a known reverse legend. A search in your book for R355 doesn't yield any results. So you list the legend but don't list a varieties with that legend.
I'm not sure you should be giving people a hard time for listing things as unpublished when they haven't checked your Complete Coinage which my quick perusal has shown to be far from complete.
As long as you keep using the format you've developed for Eric where the user has to look up every bust type, obverse legend, reverse legend, reverse type, mint #, then write that all down, then scan through column after column of numbers looking for an exact match, then start from scratch when you have to look up a second coin, no one's ever going to cite your book as a reference. It's just too complicated to use.
Barry Murphy
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It's just too complicated to use.
When I reviewed ERIC II, I became very much of the opinion that the format was a poor fit for Eastern Septimius. The system requiring finding the obverse details first and going through a series of steps ending with the reverse type is impossible to use with a series of coins with so many minor legend variations. Had the first field in the sort been the reverse type so minor things like the differences between IIC, IICO and IICOS obverses would have ended up with adjacent positions in the list, I might have found more user friendliness there but as it is, the chance of making all the right choices to lead to a 'final' level ID was chancy even if it was there. As I recall there were coins in the plates of ERICII that either were not in the list or that I was too unskilled to be able to track down.
While it is wonderful to have a catalog of what has sold in major indexed auctions, these big houses are not exactly where one goes to find things that exist only in low grade and extremely low quantity. Any collector of this series is likely to have a coin or twenty that are 'unpublished' using the definition 'not in RIC' and not in the major sales. Using the word 'complete' raises the hopes of those of us who would love to see a revised RIC for Septimius. When I saw that this eBook was just a subset of the next ERIC (meaning it would use that same laundry list organization) and when I saw neither Barry nor Martin were in on the project, I lost interest.
I do wonder if the results for Pescennius Niger would be different because a higher percentage of his coins that sell pass through the big name sellers. There would still be the problem of so many variant legends for both sides and so many coins existing only in part legend condition with less than completely predictable completions for the gaps. In this field a 'complete' catalog is going to be a die study. We might expect the later Rome section to be a better fit to the system but the mess we call 193 to 196 with multiple mints each following their own rules is not the place to risk a word like 'complete'.
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A new addition...
Obv:– IMP CE L . SEP SE-V PERT AVG . CO, laureate head right
Rev:– BONI EVENTVS, Fides standing left holding basket of fruit and corn ears
Identifyable through the distinctive obverse die...
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I have added another AVG II C, MARTI VICT to my collection.
My previous example above has reverse legend break MART-I V-I-CT with my new example being MARTI - VICT.
Regards,
Martin
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Another new II CO for my collection. This isn't a new type for the legend but is a new one for me.
Obv:– IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG II CO, laureate head right
Rev:– INVICTO IMP TROPAEA, Trophy with captured arms below
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Whilst doing more research on the coins of these issues I spotted the following coin in the BM database that is mis-attributed to COS II and is a reverse type not listed by Curtis above though I have seen one other example.
(http://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages/AN16129/AN1612993775_l.jpg)
© Trustees of the British Museum
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Incidentally my most recent II CO brings my reverse die count to 8 with this obverse die. The search continues.
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And another II CO to add. This one is what I think is a new reverse type for the II CO variety.
Obv:– IMP CAE L SEP SE-V PERT AVG II CO, laureate head right
Rev:– FORTVNAE REDVCI, Fortuna (pax?), with modius on head, seated left holding branch and cornucopia
Minted in Emesa. A.D. 194
References:- RIC -. RSC -. BMCRE -.
Martin
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Another AVG II C, CERER FRVG. A different obverse die and a different reverse die to my example above:-
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=40948.msg590493#msg590493 (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=40948.msg590493#msg590493)
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Look familiar?
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How about that! A double die match?
PeteB
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Many thanks Doug.
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Not entirely helpful to the thread but I have recently obtained a BONETAE AVG example with an A.D. 193 - AVG obverse.
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Same rev. die, as you will have noticed, as the three II C coins listed above on p. 1, one being in your collection and another B. Murphy Severan Silver, no. 221.