FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Roman Coins Discussion Forum => Topic started by: curtislclay on October 13, 2007, 03:08:58 am
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At "Emesa" only five obv. dies show legends of the form IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG, taken over from Roman denarii of 193.
Four of those dies are known in numerous specimens, allowing a full reading of their obv. legends, but the fifth die had long been known from only a single coin in Vienna, struck off center on the obv. and so showing only IMP CE (sic) L SEP SE - V PE...: see my plaster cast below.
That legend might well continue just PERT AVG, especially since II COS is included in the rev. legend, but an ending such as PERT AVG CO or PERT AVG II C could not be excluded: these legends occur on other early obv. dies, and such a die could easily be muled with a II COS rev. die.
This question is resolved by the following recent acquisition:
IMP CE L SEP SE - V PEPT AVG, head laureate r., from the same die as the Vienna coin.
FELICITAS TEMPOR II COS, two wheat ears and poppy between two crossed cornucopias.
CE for CAE also occurs on another early "Emesan" obv. die, IMP CE L SEP SE - V PERT AVG CO; PEPT for PERT, with Greek rho for the correct Latin R, also occurs on a COS I obv. die, but this reading is not 100% certain on my new coin.
Addendum, July 2008: The reading of the obverse legend is even clearer, and the error PEPT for PERT is assured, on another denarius from the same obverse die that I acquired from CGB's catalogue Monnaies 34, 30 April 2008, see the firm's image below. This coin belongs to the somewhat more common class "obv. legend of 193, ordinary rev. without II COS"; its rev. is merely FORTVNAE REDVCI, Pax standing l. holding branch and cornucopia.
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"Emesan" rev. dies including II COS in their legends, generally coupled with the obv. legend "of 193" specified above, are interesting and all rare. My casts include the following examples:
1. FELICITAS TEMPOR II COS, two wheat ears and poppy between two crossed cornucopias, obv. CE...PEPT, my new coin.
2, 3. FEIICITAS (sic) TEMPORVM II COS, basket of fruit, obv. CE...PEPT, Vienna (above). Same rev. die but obv. CAE...PERT, overstruck on a denarius of Pescennius Niger, in BM ex coll. Roger Bickford-Smith; another spec. from the same dies but not overstruck, formerly Marc Melcher Collection, sold by CNG, image given below by Roma.
4. BONAE SPEI II COS, Spes advancing l., muled with obv. legend ending II COS, Martin Griffiths, shown by him below.
5, 6. BONI EVENTVS II COS, Fides standing l. holding plate of fruit and two wheat ears, two rev. dies, BM ex L.A. Lawrence Coll., Barry Murphy (2 spec.), and Bickford-Smith ex P.V. Hill Coll. One of the same rev. dies was also used with an obv. of IVLIA DOMNA AVG, on a coin in Vienna.
7, 8. CERER FRVG II COS, Ceres standing l. holding wheat ears and long torch, Budapest, Barry Murphy (2 spec.), Martin Griffiths (see image below), all from the same die pair. The same rev. die muled with an obv. legend ending II C, BM ex Bickford-Smith and eBay Dec. 2008, the second pointed out by Doug Smith and shown below.
9. FORTVNAE REDVCI II COS, Fortuna standing l. holding rudder and cornucopia, muled with an obv. legend ending II COS, my coll. ex Michael Kelly.
10. LEG VIII AVG II COS, TR P COS in exergue, legionary eagle between two standards, BMC pl. 15.7, Paris, 2 in Oxford, Doug Smith (all from the same die pair).
11. MINER VICI (sic) II COS, Minerva standing l. holding Victory and spear, shield at feet, Oxford ex D.R. Walker and Arnold Coll.
12-15. MONETAE AVG II COS, Moneta standing l. holding scales and cornucopia.
12. Obv. CE...PEPT, Martin Griffiths, shown by him below.
13. Normal obv. "of 193", BM ex Bickford-Smith, Barry Murphy ex John Aiello, Doug Smith, from a second and third rev. dies, different from that used for 12.
14. One of the same two rev. dies used for 13 was also muled with an obv. legend of Septimius ending II C, in Athens.
15. Both rev. dies of 13 were also used with a IVLIA DOMNA AVG obv. die, not the same die noted above as occurring with the BONI EVENTVS II COS type, on coins in Vienna, Paris, and M. Griffiths Coll., the last of these three coins being shown by M. Griffiths below.
16. MONETE (sic) A[VG II CO]S, same type as last, engraver's error omitting A from MONETAE, known only for Julia Domna, in BM, same obv. die as the Vienna, Paris, and M. Griffiths coins with the correct MONETAE AVG II COS just referred to.
17. MONAE SPEI II COS, same type as last, my coll. The engraver meant to write MONETAE AVG, but the ON misled him into finishing as though it were BONAE SPEI.
18. VICTOR IVST AVG II COS, Victory advancing l. holding wreath and palm, no plaster cast, reported by Bickford-Smith from Dura Europus 942. Addendum: Martin Griffiths acquired a specimen of this coin in June 2009, which he shows below.
On two types, finally, the engraver wrote II only at the end of the rev. legend, leaving off the COS:
19. FORTVNAE REDVIC (sic) II, Fortuna seated l. holding rudder and cornucopia, BM ex Bickford-Smith.
20, 21. INVICTO IMP TROPAEA II, trophy, Martin Griffiths, my coll. (see image below); the same rev. die muled with a II CO obv. die of Septimius, BMC pl. 16.8.
Maybe Doug Smith, Barry Murphy, Martin Griffiths and others can add further types, not yet represented in my cast collection!
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Bickford-Smith, The Imperial Mints in the East for Sept. Sev., Rivista Ital. di Num. 1994/5, reminds me that two of Septimius' II COS rev. dies also occur with two different obv. dies of Julia Domna. Also the type VICTOR IVST AVG II COS is reported from the excavations of Dura Europus. I have added these three coins to the list above.
The BM now has the best collection of denarii of this small issue, 8 of the 21 recorded varieties, because of purchases from the L.A. Lawrence Collection (1 coin) and above all on the strength of the Bickford-Smith Bequest (4 coins). Should the BM also acquire my 4, that would make 12 of 21. Still 9 known ones to go, and who knows how many new ones?
Vienna has 3, Oxford 2 and a duplicate (2 from the D.R. Walker Bequest), Doug Smith 2 (unless he has others I haven't recorded), Martin Griffiths 6, Barry Murphy had three and a duplicate in his collection, plus another duplicate in later stock. These coins are so rare that acquiring even one is grounds for congratulation!
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Curtis,
I just wanted to thank you for what is probably the most complete documentation that I am aware of for this small, rare series.
I am afraid that I am not able to add anything substantial to the information that you have provided. I do have a INVICTO IMP TROPAEA II, trophy, with the 193 obverse though.
I thought I would share this dealer picture of a coin that might be relevant to the series. It is either barbarous (I have never seen J-D look like this) or an early official product with a reverse legend that seems to read "MONETATI COS" or "MONETATI II COS" or something similar. The coin went missing in the postal system and so I never got it in hand for a better look.
Regards,
Martin
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Martin,
Thanks for reminding me of your INVICTO IMP TROPAEA II, coupled with obv. legend of 193. That adds a new variant, so now 19 rather than just 18 are known.
I have made the necessary changes in the list and summary above, and have also recorded the four pieces, one of them a duplicate, no new types, that Barry Murphy formerly had in his rich and fine collection of Eastern Severan denarii.
Your Domna imitation is interesting, too bad it went missing!
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Curtis,
I actually had another BONI EVENTVS II COS, attached is a photo. It's not on my website and it's a different die than the one on my site.
Barry Murphy
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Barry,
Thanks. I actually have a cast of that one, and have now added it to the inventory above!
Curtis
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Many thanks for this intresting Topic. Because of this topic I just looked in my coin trays to find my Emesa issue.
I know it's not a II COS issue but, because it might be intresting for you, I nevertheless want to share this coin:
Obv.: IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG, Laureate head r.
Rev.: BONI EVENTVS, Bonus Eventus standing l, holding basket of fruit and corn ears.
The same coin is on Wildwind; Contributed by Martin Griffiths (is this maridvnvm?).
Best Regards,
Jos
Edit: just found out that the coin on wildwinds is also in the collection of maridvnvm on FORVM (so I asume that maridvnvm is Martin). But the coin is now atributed to Alexandria! Can somebody tell me why it's now atributed to Alexandria and how I can see the difference between the eastern mints issues of Septimius Severus?
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Jos,
Your coin is from Alexandria rather than Emesa.
Regards,
Martin Griffiths
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Curtis,
Doug Smith also has an example of the FEIICITAS - Basket of fuit, on his site:-
(http://dougsmith.ancients.info/pnos300.jpg)
also over-struck on a denarius of Niger he says that 'CPESC' is visible at 10 o'clock on the obverse. Same reverse die but different obverse die when compared to the BM example.
Regards,
Martin
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Martin,
The coin Doug Smith shows is in fact Roger Bickford-Smith's specimen, pl. I.13 in his 1994/1995 Riv. ital. di num. article, now in BM.
Yours,
Curtis
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Many thanks Curtis. I just wasn't sure.
Regards,
Martin
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I recently acquired this coin, a die duplicate of the one in Martin Griffiths' collection:
Obv. legend of 193, rev. INVICTO IMP TROPAEA II, Trophy, where II apparently stands for II COS.
That reduces my want list for the BM from 8 to 7 published variants in the rare 193/II COS series, plus of course whatever unpublished ones turn up!
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A recent addition to my collection is this Julia Domna, MONETAE AVG II COS. Perhaps Curtis can check to see the die matches as I would certainly be interested.
Regards,
Martin
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Martin,
Same dies as the Paris specimen that I mention above, same rev. die also for Septimius on the B. Murphy ex J. Aiello spec., also mentioned above.
I noticed and have corrected what were apparently two errors in my listing above.
First, I said BM ex Bickford-Smith had the coin of SS with rev. MONETAE AVG II COS. Apparently an error, I have deleted it, since I find no such plaster cast in my drawer.
Second, I said that the three coins of J. Domna with this rev. type, BM, Vienna, Paris, were all from the same die pair and used one of the two rev. dies of the type known for SS. Wrong, those three coins come from three different rev. dies, two are the same two rev. dies that also occur for SS, the third (BM) is a new erroneous variant, MONETE A[VG II CO]S, the A in MONETAE being left out, so far only attested on this unique Domna coin.
That adds a new variant to the number of coins known with II COS or just II in their rev. legends, 17 instead of 16, and reduces the number the BM has, 7 instead of 8. I have corrected my earlier posts accordingly.
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I remember seeing a nice centered FELICITAS TEMPORVM II COS, basket of fruit and grain in an old CNG archive, whos in possesion of that now?
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I'll add it to the inventory if someone can provide an image!
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Here's an image, its from the Marc Melcher Collection.
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Thanks.
That is a new specimen to me, from known dies: same dies as Bickford-Smith's coin overstruck on Niger that Maridvnvm shows above.
I am adding mention of the additional specimen in the listing above.
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Bickford-Smith did have the SS MONETAE AVG II COS coin after all, and it doubtless formed part of his bequest to the BM: I don't have a cast of it, but he illustrated his specimen in his Riv. Ital. article of 1994/5, pl. I, 15.
So I have restored his specimen to the list above and changed the numbers of coins held and needed by the BM accordingly.
I have also added Martin G's new Julia coin with this rev. type to the inventory, having forgotten to do so a couple of days ago.
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A recent addition to my collection....
BONAE SPEI II COS combined with an AVG II C obverse legend. Cross posted to the AVG II C thread too.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/normal_RI_064ib_img.jpg)
Regards,
Martin
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A nice find, whose existence had already been implied by the MONAE SPEI II COS error legend used with the Moneta standing type!
I have added this coin to the list, plus another, correcting an earlier error: Bickford-Smith's CERER FRVG II COS coin now in BM is actually a mule with a II C obverse. So the number of variants listed has now risen to 19.
Martin, I would very much like to have a plaster cast of this new coin, in order to confirm the identity of the obverse die!
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Curtis,
Please see your IM.
When I first saw the MONAE SPEI II COS error I thought that the type must be out there but didn't expect to stumble across it. It was an additional bonus to find it tied to an AVG II C obverse.
We have the majority of these scarce types tied to the 193 legend but now have two examples with AVG II C and one example with II CO. The reverse dies on two of these non 193 examples also occur with the 193 obverse which gets close to proving a very close link between these series. It would now be great to find the BONAE SEPI II COS tied with the 193 legend to show the continuation of the trend.
Regards,
Martin
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No. 9 in the list is also a mule, with obv. II COS, which may also be expected to turn up with the normal obv. legend copying Rome in 193.
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Thanks for the cast, Martin. It shows that your coin comes from the II CO-S obv. die, only the second coin known with this reading, after the denarius with different II COS rev. type that I got from Michael Kelly's collection (no. 9 in the list). Here are the casts illustrated side by side for comparison:
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Curtis,
It was my pleasure to send you the cast and I hope that they were of good enough quality to be of use. It was my first attempt at casting. Any future casts required / desired and now be done with relative ease. Seeing the casts of the two coins illustrated above shows the benefits of having these casts together when looking for die matches. I had not suspected that it was a II CO-S obverse and would have remained ignorant of the possibility without your help. I am ecstatic (well almost!).
Could you possibly update the table in the other relevant thread (listing the scarcer obverse legends)?
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=40948
Best regards,
Martin
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Another example of the CERER FRVG II COS to add (new addition to my collection). From the same die pair as the other examples.
Regards,
Martin
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Thanks, Martin. I have added this coin to the inventory and summary above; the fourth "notch on your belt"!
I have also added to my first post in this thread an image of a new acquisition of mine which is again from the same "193" obv. die whose reading used to be uncertain, and which confirms the second error in the legend, not only CE for CAE, but PEPT for PERT.
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Another recent addition even though I have almost stopped buying at the moment. It has seen better days, has numerous scratches on both sides, has some encrustation on the reverse and shows decent signs of wear. It is however has clear devices and legends both sides and is a MONETAE AVG II COS from the reverse die I don't have an example of, combined with the CE...PEPT obverse that you have identified above that I also didn't have an example of. It is decent enough to show the CE and the PEPT quite clearly. I am very happy to add it to my collection.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/RI_064il_img.jpg)
Regards,
Martin
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It never rains but it pours: unfortunately not on me this time! For decades the Vienna CE...PEPT obverse die seemed to be unique; now three additional coins from it, all with different reverse types, have emerged over the course of about a year.
I have added Martin's coin, a new variety, to the list above, and have changed the relevant totals in my summary of varieties and specimens that follows that list.
Another specimen of the mule II C / CERER FRVG II COS, no. 8 in the list, recently sold on eBay and was reported by Doug Smith under the Roman Coins board. I reproduce the image below and have added the coin to the list; 2.97g, sold for $282.
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This topic hasn't seen much activity for a while. I thought I would revive it with a recent addition to my collection. Not a new type but one that Curtis doesn't have a cast of (yet) but he will have as soon as I can have one made and sent across.
This coins has made my day.
Septimius Severus Denarius
Obv:– IMP CAE L SEP SE-V PERT AVG, Laureate head right
Rev:– VICTOR IVST AVG II COS, Victory walking left, holding wreath in right hand, palm in left
Minted in Rome. A.D. 193
Reference:– BMCRE W338 note. RIC 262a (Rated R2). RSC 740a.
All references cite the same coin from the 3rd Dura Hoard, Num. Notes and Monographs, 55, Pg 46. No. 216.
Regards,
Martin
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I'd say that coin should make your day! Is the obverse die one you know?
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Yes Doug it is. I had a coin from the same obverse die with the VICTOR IVST AVG legend.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/normal_RI%20064hu%20img.jpg)
I think that it is also a die match to one of my VICTOR IVST AVS (sic) coins:-
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/RI%20064ee%20img.jpg)
Regards,
Martin
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Nice to see an actual specimen of that one!
I have added it in the list above.
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A IVST AVG II COS recently sold on ebay uk.
Martin
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I have managed to obtain a BONI EVENTVS II COS. I believe it to be from a different reverse die than the two examples mentioned above.
Regards,
Martin
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I recently saw a Julia Domna, Basket type with II COS sell. It was too much for me but worth noting.
Regards,
Martin
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Here is another example of the AVG II C, CERER FRVG II COS mule identified above that I have just obtained with some assistance from Barry. A reverse die match to my A.D. 193 example...
Ex-Roma.
Martin
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Obv:– IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG II COS, Laureate head right
Rev:– FORTVNAE REDVCI II COS, Fortuna standing left holding rudder and cornucopia
I have finally obtained an example for my own collection. Quite scrappy but there is enough there for a clear reading.