FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Greek Coins Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Kopperkid on October 08, 2006, 10:55:25 pm
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Since I know we have some great resources on this forum I would like to tap into them.
I am thinking of doing either a group of presentations or a single presentation at one of our Ancient Coin Club meetings this fall/winter. The title of the presentation(s) might be something like: "Wings on things that Nature never intended." This presentation would cover just the historical or timeline of coinage and show all the different types or I'll do each type as an indvidual and cover the variations, mythilogical or historic references. I've been doing some prelimarnary digging and think the first type is the winged boar...although it could also be a winged horse...this is were you can help. I'm looking for good images and/or articles that cover the topics. I would like to cover not only the animals, put the humanoids as well.
My original start on this project started out by trying to identify what the heck the thing is that is holding up Tyche chair/throne on coinage. It is interesting that everyone appears to have their own term with this figure.
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What the heck? Never seen that before, it looks like Nike?
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Griffin (winged monster) was on the very early coins of Abdera.
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I think I might be close with this one:
Ionia, Uncertain mint Electrum Hemistater. Circa 600-550 BC. Winged female figure running left, head turned right, holding caduceus in right hand, wreath in left / Irregular rectangular central punch flanked by two square punches.
Abdera is close:
CNG 69 , Lot 230-THRACE, Abdera. Circa 540/35-520/15 BC. AR Didrachm (7.40 gm). Griffin seated left, raising paw / Quadripartite incuse square. Unpublished. Good VF, light porosity on reverse. Unique. ($2500)
Anybody have anything else??
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Almost forgot one of my personal favorite series:
Caria, Kaunos AR Drachm or Half Stater. Ca 490-470 B.C. Iris with curved wings and outstretched hands in a kneeling-running position right, looking back / Griffin standing left, raising forepaw, within dotted border in quadrilateral incuse.
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Well, you're coming down close to the date of the first Corinth Pegasus. Are there any knielauf running Medousa? Or a winged triskelos? And of course there are those quasi-boars, as you said. Pat L.
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Hi Pat!
Nice to read of the Knielauf! Very often this kind of depiction is wrongly described as 'kneeling'. But it should be a kind of flying if I'm right! It goes down to the Persian Achaemenids and is first found on coins of Dareios where an archer (toxotai) is shown with one knee on the ground. The interpretation of this knielauf figure as king today is doubted. On Greek coins it is often Nike who is depicted in knielauf position.
Best regards
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BM Guide pl. 7 #6 shows an early winged hippocamp.
http://www.snible.org/coins/guide/7.html
Early winged Nike, from before 476 BC
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/sicily.html#Catana
Here is a picture of an early running gorgon:
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/etruria.html#14
I believe it's dated after c. 475 BC. There is a different winged running gorgon in the Asyut hoard book, but I don't have a picture online.
All of these have reverse designs; I think Kopperkid's hemistater is the earliest. Where was that coin published? I've never seen it before.
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Ok this is what I found for the Corinth Pegasus:
Corinth. Circa 625-585 BC and later. AR Obol (0.26 gm). Pegasos flying right / Quadripartite incuse square; pellets in angles.
Although, I'm just an acolyte, I am curious as to why the design is so complex and more lifelike than the rest of the coinage in this time range? Any comments?
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Sorry Image didn't get attached.
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I found it on Wildwinds.com searching for electrum and winged
This is the text from Wildwinds:
Sale: Triton VIII, Lot: 451. Closing Date: Jan
10, 2005. IONIA, Uncertain. Circa 600-550 BC. EL
Hemistater (7.03 gm). Estimate $5000 Sold For
$15000
IONIA, Uncertain. Circa 600-550 BC. EL Hemistater
(7.03 gm). Winged female figure running left, head
turned right, holding caduceus in right hand,
wreath in left / Irregular rectangular central
punch flanked by two square punches. Weidauer 175
(same dies); Traité -; SNG Copenhagen -; SNG
Kayhan -; Boston MFA -; SNG von Aulock -; cf.
Rosen 246 (Stater). Good VF, some minor field
marks. Extremely rare, only two other specimens
recorded by Weidauer. ($5000)
From the William and Louise Fielder Collection.
BM Guide pl. 7 #6 shows an early winged hippocamp.
http://www.snible.org/coins/guide/7.html
Early winged Nike, from before 476 BC
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/sicily.html#Catana
Here is a picture of an early running gorgon:
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/etruria.html#14
I believe it's dated after c. 475 BC. There is a different winged running gorgon in the Asyut hoard book, but I don't have a picture online.
All of these have reverse designs; I think Kopperkid's hemistater is the earliest. Where was that coin published? I've never seen it before.
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Lanz 105, Nov. 2001, Münzen von Korinth, Sammlung BCD, is recent and reflects good recent scholarship. Here is a scan of nos. 1-7 in that catalogue, dated there to the 2nd half of the 6th c. BCE.
It is not because the little Pegasos is naturalistic, however, that the first ones now are dated later; it is the ongoing question of the date of the first peninsular Greek coins.
I can easily show you a little pegasus on a Protocorinthian perfume bottle that dates from the 7th century. Corinthian art was remarkably naturalistic remarkably early--a naturalism that is related, probably, to the kind of sea trade that they practiced and the kinds of art that they encountered. On the other hand, look at that pseudo-early running gorgon, 5th century. By the second half of the 6th century, Corinthian horses on votive plaques (many in Berlin and Louvre) are much more naturalistic.
Pat L.
Here is the promised perfume bottle with a pegasus of about 650 BCE. Whether you call it Middle Protocorinthian (end of), as Boardman does, or Late Protocorinthian (beginning of), as Amyx does, it is middle of the 7th century BCE, either way. These little vases are 6.6 and 6.8 CENTIMETERS, about 2.5 inches, tall, so the pegasus is about the same size as on a stater.
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Thanks! That is great information. Is it alright to use the images in my presentation? I'm pretty sure it doesn't violate copywrite laws.
Best Regards,
Kopperkid
I really should chang the name over to Silverkid or something like that since I am no longer collecting US cent types, but Greek silver fractions...
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I can't speak for them, but I'm sure Lanz won't mind at a Coins club in an upstanding place like Minneapolis; the dating there is consitent with that given "c 555-515" for similar coins in CoinArchives listings: that is, the introduction of the first tiny head in the incuse is placed in the last quarter of the 6th c. BCE. But the BCD collection catalogue issued by Lanz gives on one page a series of seven nice examples.
As for the pictures of the lovely little aryballoi, I scanned them from John Boardman's Early Greek Vase Painting, but the images came from much earlier publications. When Perseus has its pictures "up", the Boston aryballos is there, but the pictures, whether of coins or of vase paintings aren't accessible right now.
Pat L.
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If you use the little Boston pointed aryballos, Protocorinthian of c. 650 BCE, you ought to have (or might want to have) a Corinthian horse on a vase almost exactly a century later, c. 550 BCE. Here is an image you can use for sure: it is mine, and, with the Louvre's permission, I took it for teaching. It is a red-ground hydria (the shape imitating metal vases: note the handles) by an artist nicknamed the Damon Painter (it is his namepiece). By this time, Athens was competing, and some of the fanciest Corinthian vases, like this one, coated the cream-colored clay with a red wash, to make it a bit gaudier. Shortly thereafter, ambitious Corinthian vase painting ceased. This hydria is Louvre E642, from Caere (Cervetri); the Etruscans were good customers, but so were the Greek colonies of Sicily and South Italy.
You can see why earlier authors dated the first pegasoi earlier than today's consensus: the pointed aryballos pegasos is the one that looks like them. But, according to today's consensus, the first pegasoi were already archaizing when Corinthian coinage began. I am sure that there is archaeological evidence for the dating; there must be lots of coins found in context as well as some in sealed hoards to date the early ones as well as the first ones with a little head in the incuse (dated same as first Syracusan ones with a little head), but I am not up on this bibliography. There have been some authors who have tried to re-date the pottery, but the archaeological evidence still holds solid on the received dating (give or take a decade!), which I have given you. Pat Lawrence
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I knew I could count on this fourm for expertise.
Thank you ...and thank you!
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Here's one that I would get if I had the extra cash. I don't think I've ever seen one with a whole lion with wing...heck come to think of it...I don't think I've seen a lion with wings!
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The winged lion on the coin probably is not quite purely decorative, but in vase-painting and on other objects (when these survive) of the seventh and sixth centuries BC, winged lions (not to mention bearded sphinxes and more fanciful combinations) are quite common. The Greeks might be excused for supposing, initially, that near eastern artists (at first North Syrian and Phoenician ones) put wings on practically anything; there was a great variety, on metalwork, on fabrics, on furniture, on handles of fans and mirrors, etc.
Pat L.
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Finally getting some time to work on some pages on the archiac winged motifs on coins and found this guy at 650-600. Any opinions. This is the text that came along with the image:
Ionia Uncertain (BC 650-600) EL Stater
ca 650-600 BC. EL Stater (14.22g). Milesian standard. Figural type. Sphinx seated left on ground line; cross with terminal pellets to left / Irregular incuse. Unpublished. Good VF. Unique. This previously unknown type almost certainly has an Ionian origin, but the specific mint remains unknown. The sphinx appears as a civic emblem on archaic coins of both Chios and Samothrace, but Samothrace did not issue electrum, and the electrum staters of Chios, although struck on the same weight standard as the present coin, are of a distinctly different style (cf. Baldwin, Chios, pl. I, 1-12). The cross with terminal pellets -- perhaps a solar symbol is exceptional by its appearance here as a subsidiary symbol. Such subsidiary symbols are rare on early electrum (but cf. Triton VIII, lots 399-405, for the use of a pentagram or a triad of pellets as symbols on the early electrum of Ephesos). The cross with terminal pellets does appear on other uncertain early electrum (cf. Trait‚ I 7, pl. I, 6) and is employed regularly as a reverse type on the electrum of Miletos (with a central pellet in addition to the terminal pellets; cf. SNG Kayhan 440-449).
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Thumbing through Sear Volume II I aslo found the elctrum piece. In here it is described as: "Upper part of winged daimon, his bearded hd. turned to r." Sear number 3442. Sear's has Jenkins (Ancien reek Coins) 14 as citation.
I found it on Wildwinds.com searching for electrum and winged
This is the text from Wildwinds:
Sale: Triton VIII, Lot: 451. Closing Date: Jan
10, 2005. IONIA, Uncertain. Circa 600-550 BC. EL
Hemistater (7.03 gm). Estimate $5000 Sold For
$15000
IONIA, Uncertain. Circa 600-550 BC. EL Hemistater
(7.03 gm). Winged female figure running left, head
turned right, holding caduceus in right hand,
wreath in left / Irregular rectangular central
punch flanked by two square punches. Weidauer 175
(same dies); Traité -; SNG Copenhagen -; SNG
Kayhan -; Boston MFA -; SNG von Aulock -; cf.
Rosen 246 (Stater). Good VF, some minor field
marks. Extremely rare, only two other specimens
recorded by Weidauer. ($5000)
From the William and Louise Fielder Collection.
BM Guide pl. 7 #6 shows an early winged hippocamp.
http://www.snible.org/coins/guide/7.html
Early winged Nike, from before 476 BC
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/sicily.html#Catana
Here is a picture of an early running gorgon:
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/etruria.html#14
I believe it's dated after c. 475 BC. There is a different winged running gorgon in the Asyut hoard book, but I don't have a picture online.
All of these have reverse designs; I think Kopperkid's hemistater is the earliest. Where was that coin published? I've never seen it before.
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Jenkins' 14, is an electum coin from Ionia. In the text he states that it is "Possibly associated with the excavation finds from Ephesos ..." His discription of the coin from the plate before page 23 is as follows.
Ionia: Winged diamon, 650-600 B.C. (half, 7.04 gm., diam. 45 mm, BM 1906; possibly from Ephesos; Robinson 67)
This seems to be the earliest coin with a winged thing that he lists in his book on Greek coins.
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I know it is not the earliest, but I can't help but post my hippocamp with Melquarth from Tyre (it is on a didrachm - Sear 5914, which is really dated to 347-332 B.C.)
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Thanks for the Jenkins' reference. I'm a finally finding a few minutes here and there to get my presentation togother.
Warmest regards from Minnesota, USA
Jenkins' 14, is an electum coin from Ionia. In the text he states that it is "Possibly associated with the excavation finds from Ephesos ..." His discription of the coin from the plate before page 23 is as follows.
Ionia: Winged diamon, 650-600 B.C. (half, 7.04 gm., diam. 45 mm, BM 1906; possibly from Ephesos; Robinson 67)
This seems to be the earliest coin with a winged thing that he lists in his book on Greek coins.
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I have fallen back into uncertaintly on the dating of this one. I noticed that the CNG was referencing Rosen 246. I didn't notice that until now. Well, Rosen has the following for 246:
"EL 14.147 Stater. Bank Leu 20,25 Apr. 1978, 122. [I was only 7 years old!]
Obv. die of Weidauer 175-77 (halves and third). This is apparently the first stater to come to light. See Weidauer, pp. 88-89. Possibly the mint of Ephesus. The coin shows that the winged demon is not a "Posis Qhrwu" [my greek in not the best], as was hitherto supposed for the fractions."
"Weidauer references, unless otherwise specified, are to type combinations in Liselotte Weidauer, Probleme der fruhren Elektronpragung TYPOS 1 (Frobough, 1975)."
"The overall date is seventh century to ca. 500 B.C."
Ok, so I have two issues: (a) I don't read German; (b) I don't have a copy of Weidauer.
I know it's a lot to ask, but if someone out there has a copy, can you translate and post what's on pp 88-89? A big request I know, but it would be greatly appreciated!
I think I might be close with this one:
Ionia, Uncertain mint Electrum Hemistater. Circa 600-550 BC. Winged female figure running left, head turned right, holding caduceus in right hand, wreath in left / Irregular rectangular central punch flanked by two square punches.
Abdera is close:
CNG 69 , Lot 230-THRACE, Abdera. Circa 540/35-520/15 BC. AR Didrachm (7.40 gm). Griffin seated left, raising paw / Quadripartite incuse square. Unpublished. Good VF, light porosity on reverse. Unique. ($2500)
Anybody have anything else??
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:Greek_Pi: O :GreeK_Sigma: I :GreeK_Sigma: :Greek_Theta: H P :Greek_Omega: N means Master of Wild Beasts, a type of what was once called generically the Anatolian Young God. It is the masculine equivalent of the type of Ephesian Artemis called :Greek_Pi: O T N I A :Greek_Theta: H P :Greek_Omega: N, which means Mistress of Wild Beasts (sometimes with a bee body, in early periods not limited to Ephesos).
If I were a millionaire, I'd collect these electrum staters, since in that case I'd be able to take adequate care of them. The one posted in Reply #19 is the most desirable coin I ever saw, and that includes signed Syracusans and all.
Pat L.
I don't have a copy of Weidauer, either.
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I attach, with ref. to the early staters and the Wild Beast holders and the Bee, an old photo, through glass, detail, of a winged figure on gold repoussé made to be sewn to something, and in Berlin (more in Louvre, but this shows bees and Potniai in one frame) some of the gold jewelry found at Kameiros in Rhodes. All this stuff is dated late 7th century. The 'die' is an intaglio mold, usually of fired clay, and the repoussé, of course, is by hammering sheet gold into it. The famous gold from the Shaft Graves at Mycenae is mostly done exactly the same way. I had never before thought of the possible technical relationship between repoussé jewelry and early coins, about the same size for the staters. Not a direct causal relationship, I think, but...?
Pat L.
The Delphi one is a gorgon holding snakes.
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Pat-
You are the best. This will help greatly. I can definetly see the style of the image of the Potniai on silver with the bee body. Even the wing design with the hands holding on to something. I found a 12 page pdf by Carol Thomas and Michael Wedde on the Potniai. Thank you once again. This is sparking all my inerest in being an archeologist as a kid. (You know how all those Indiana Jones movies effected the young minds!)
http://www.ulg.ac.be/archgrec/IMG/aegeum/aegaeum22(pdf)/04%20THOMAS-WEDDE.pdf
I also found this image from the Louvre
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Thanks! That is what I live for. I can't resist posting the Louvre's most remarkable Kameiros Potnia--nude. And look at all that granulation in the hair. Pat L.
True, she has no animals, but otherwise the same Presence. The wonderful world that coinage was born in.
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Pat-
Thought you might like this one image.
Artemis represents the nature in which she lives free and untamed, shining and wild, tender as a mother, and unyielding as a virgin. Again, here she is represented as a mistress of nature. She is winged, as often in early depictions, and holding in one hand a panther, in the other a deer. [the handle of a krater, known as the Francois Krater, c. 570 B.C., Florence Museo Archaeologico]
This image looks familarly close to the orignial coin...I don't know if the coin has a beard or if its just the crudeness of the celator.
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But Kleitias, who signed the François Vase (once on each side, and the potter Ergotimos signed it twice, too), deliberately chose for the constrained rectangels on the volute handles the already very old Potnia Thêron motif. Yes, they are very like the earliest winged creatures on coins or on repoussé ornaments like the one at Delphi, but Kleitias is later than the earliest coinage. Did you know that on the François Vase there are two whole cycles of heroic legend, with 200 labeled figures, besides wonderful floral patterns and animal friezes and, on the foot, so in miniature, the miniature Battle of Pygmies and Cranes? I am so happy that you discovered it. It is one of my favorite great works of art. Pat L.
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A good friend of mine got me an image of Weidnauer text. The problem is neither one of us can read German. I've tried BabelFish for a translation and have been able to come up with the following:
175
Bartiger, geflugelter im knielauf auf geriefelter flache. Langes, herabfallendes haar. Spitzer, der profillinie folgender Bart. Oberkorper von vorne. Kurzer Chiton. Bogerformig den Kopf einrahmendes Flugelpaar. Biede Arme leicht angewinkelt zur Seite gespreizt. Hande und Beine nicht mehr auf dem Schrotling.
bar tiger, more geflugelter in the kneeling run on more splined flat. Long, falling down hair. Pointedly, the profile line the following beard. Oberkorper from the front. Short Chiton. Bogerformig the head framing Flugelpaar. Biede of arms easily bended to the side spread. Hande and legs no more on the Schrotling.
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177
Gleicher (?)Stempel wie bei 175 und 176. Hier nur Kopf des Damons und teilweise Korper und Flugel auf dem Scrotling. Kopfund Gesichtskonturen hier am deutlichsten. Langhaarflache in waagrechten Wellen, durch senkrechte Linien unterteilt. Haaransatz unmittelbar uber dem Auge. Kragtige, leicht nach unten gebogene Nase. Langgestrechtes Untergesicht.
More directly (?)Stempel as with 175 and 176. Here only head of the Damons and partial Korper and Flugel on the Scrotling. Kopfund face outlines here most clearly. Long-hair-flat in horizontal waves, by senkrechte lines partitions. Hair beginning directly more uber the eye. Kragtige, easily downward curved nose. Langgestrechtes Untergesicht.
Any help is greatly appreicated.
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The translation software is sensitive to missing umlauts (the dots over the letters). The first line should read:
"Bärtiger, geflügelter «Dämon» im knielauf r. auf geriefelter Fläche."
which Babel Fish translates as
"Bear tiger, winged "Daemon" in the kneeling run r. on splined surface."
That text is from page 36 of Weidauer, not pages 88-89.
To get the umlauts in Windows without a German keyboard use Start->Accessories->System Tools->Character map. That program lets you put the characters into the clipboard and paste them to your browser or notepad. If this is too much work Babelfish treats "ae" as "ä", etc., so you can translate
"Baertiger, gefluegelter «Daemon» im knielauf r. auf geriefelter Flaeche."
I also don't read German. Weidauer cites Seltman's Greek Coins, which describes the figure not as a bear-tiger or demon but as "the four winged diety" in the text and "Oriental diety" in the key. What was the question?
Seltman's Greek Coins (1955) can often be purchased inexpensively online -- I see copies on abebooks for $12.77 and $25 -- and includes 64 nice plates. I recommend it. Be careful not to by his other work, A Book of Greek Coins, which is totally different.
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Thank you for the Babelfish tips and the more accurate translation.
My attempts are to find as many examples, attributions and descriptions and place them at a single location and then attempt to define the image a little better. There are several cites that call this coin a female which led to the Pontia path. I think I am giong to apply that more specifically to the Knosos coins. I think that we are probably looking more at the Anatolian Young God (Master of Wild Beasts) as an image, since the Weidnauer images clearly depict a beard.
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Ryan (and all other interested):
A strong candidate among the earliest winged figures on coins is the one in the new Gemini III. Now I have to find it again, but for the time being it's top right in the group on the table of contents page.
Yes, in lovely electrum it is p. 40, no. 172. Those sphinxes and sirens with a tendril coming out of the top of the head are Early Archaic, and, considering the way it's put together, I'd be surprised if this one were after c. 600 BCE.
The blurb about literary sirens, loc. cit., is entirely irrelevant. At this date it's better characterized as a Greek version of an Egyptian soul-bird--but as we know from those Cyzicene winged boar protomai they were having a lovely time combining all sorts of bodies and heads. Think, if your grandfather had a Late Geometric krater on his grave, how exciting it was the first time you saw something like those prototypes of chimaeras at Carchemish and Zincirli. BTW, long before coinage, Mycenaean artists had had a fling with east-Mediterranean trade art. That tendril coming from the head seems to have been from Levantine sources, which is not to say anything about the mint of the electrum hekte. The motif traveled as fast as a ship could sail, and occurs simultaneously all over the Aegean and most of the peninsula.
Pat L.
Here, Late Protocorinthian (and the dating of c. 635 should be insisted on) Chigi Olpe, now in the Villa Giulia in Rome, is the double-bodied sphinx (speaking of playing with combinations), showing just the most famous example of the tendrils 'growing' from the head--however the Greeks understood them. This is from the original publication, by lithography, in Antike Denkmäler. The Villa Giulia forbade photography; after all, it's only been published for a century and a quarter...
Below, in grayscale, and dated c. 650 (and maybe half a generation earlier than the Chigi Olpe) is a sphinx or siren (you can't tell) from Aegina, but it is Middle to Late Protocorinthian work.
These are just ones already on my computers.
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Pat-
Thanks again...I can't say it too many times..you're are providing some great information on the art side, that we (collectors) tend to ignore or not spend enough time understanding. I looked through that catalogue the day it showed up. I remember seeing that coin and forgot about it. I will add this guy to my study along with your background on the tendril. Here's another one I found that appears to have the same tendril.
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Pat-
The Chigi Olpe is quite an interesting piece. I am curious, in engineering drawings we show phantom or dotted lines to represent a part that is shown in various positions. Just out of my ignorance on the topic, (my books have not arrived yet) are the dashed lines showing the movement of the wings and tail? I noticed the lines on the warrior as well...maybe moving forward? If so, would that be the first attempts to show movement?
As a sidenote, is there any way of finding a color image of the spinx (Plate 56d) from The Luxus Phenomenon, I?
Regards,
Ryan
Ryan (and all other interested):
A strong candidate among the earliest winged figures on coins is the one in the new Gemini III. Now I have to find it again, but for the time being it's top right in the group on the table of contents page.
Yes, in lovely electrum it is p. 40, no. 172. Those sphinxes and sirens with a tendril coming out of the top of the head are Early Archaic, and, considering the way it's put together, I'd be surprised if this one were after c. 600 BCE.
The blurb about literary sirens, loc. cit., is entirely irrelevant. At this date it's better characterized as a Greek version of an Egyptian soul-bird--but as we know from those Cyzicene winged boar protomai they were having a lovely time combining all sorts of bodies and heads. Think, if your grandfather had a Late Geometric krater on his grave, how exciting it was the first time you saw something like those prototypes of chimaeras at Carchemish and Zincirli. BTW, long before coinage, Mycenaean artists had had a fling with east-Mediterranean trade art. That tendril coming from the head seems to have been from Levantine sources, which is not to say anything about the mint of the electrum hekte. The motif traveled as fast as a ship could sail, and occurs simultaneously all over the Aegean and most of the peninsula.
Pat L.
Here, Late Protocorinthian (and the dating of c. 635 should be insisted on) Chigi Olpe, now in the Villa Giulia in Rome, is the double-bodied sphinx (speaking of playing with combinations), showing just the most famous example of the tendrils 'growing' from the head--however the Greeks understood them. This is from the original publication, by lithography, in Antike Denkmäler. The Villa Giulia forbade photography; after all, it's only been published for a century and a quarter...
Below, in grayscale, and dated c. 650 (and maybe half a generation earlier than the Chigi Olpe) is a sphinx or siren (you can't tell) from Aegina, but it is Middle to Late Protocorinthian work.
These are just ones already on my computers.
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You are right about the dotted lines: as in engineering drawings (not to show movement!). Those are very careful drawings, and it is impossible (as with making a flat map) to transfer figures from a curved and tapered surface to a flat, straight frieze without affecting the spacing of the figures and their relation to each other.
As for the Kiseleff olpe in the Wagner Museum in Würzburg, first that winged figure is a siren (bird body) rather than a sphinx (feline body). I have never seen it reproduced in color. The vases are published in a catalogue that is too expensive to warrant your getting it for just one vase. The siren is right on the front of the olpe, as you can see on Taf. 23 in the catalogue of the collection, edited by Erika Simon, Die Sammung Kiseleff, Teil II, Minoische und griechische Antiken, Martin-von-Wagner-Museum der Universität Würzburg. Mainz, von Zabern, 1989. I can send you a scan to see the whole vase-shape, if you wish, on an e-mail. Or you can get it from Interlibrary Borrowing, if you have access. The Kiseleff olpe dates from about 600 BCE or not much later.
Pat L.
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Yikes! This guy sold for $23,000
Pat-
Thanks again...I can't say it too many times..you're are providing some great information on the art side, that we (collectors) tend to ignore or not spend enough time understanding. I looked through that catalogue the day it showed up. I remember seeing that coin and forgot about it. I will add this guy to my study along with your background on the tendril. Here's another one I found that appears to have the same tendril.
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SInce this thread has migrated a llittle bit off topic and we are talking about tendrils I found a really interesting Caria, Kaunos coin in coinarchives.com
[DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
This image shows a the winged female with what appears to be tendrils! Or is this just my imagination reading things into the image. If it were just one item coming out of her head I might dismiss it as some headress ornament, but there are two.
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This coin is listed in Konuk's chapter in the Price "Essays" book, so if any discussion about the head dress or tendril is to be found it's likely to be there.
Pul
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The answer is found immediately loc. cit., p. 198 with illus. on pl. 47: "...and two scrolls curling up from the top of her head." Now I need to find out why the figure has to be Iris, which is what he calls her. His answer is on p. 222, and credits no less authority than Babelon, Traité. I wonder about it, because Iris is rather uncommon c. 600 BCE (or at least so I have thought!), but Nike at this date in this form seems more unlikely still, and that was the alternative.
As for the scrolls, which are both a 'headdress' and an attribute, I think, of her supernatural nature, they can be found, just as wings are, on any figure that is not of the real and mortal kind. I think their remote source might be one of the Egyptian crowns, via Phoenician decorative arts. I might like to refrain from giving this winged divinity a specific name, barring specific evidence.
Pat L.
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You raise a good point. The obverse die style for this early Caunos coin is marked by the absence of a laurel wreath and caduceus, which can be found in the hands of the winged "Iris" on later coins in this series. Both early and late issues in the series feature winged heels on the figures, in addition to the obvious wings on the back.
I often thought that the association with Iris had something to do with the baetyl on the reverse of these coins, as it wouldn't be too unusual to feature a celestial demi-god with an object of supposed celestial origin/significance. Also, with the later coins in the series, the caduceus is clearly a tip of the hands as to the "messenger" status of the figure.
Here's a similar example of the earlier coin, noted as being (O23/R20) in Konuk/Price.
(http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/freemansear/mbs13/image00750.jpg)
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OK, running with the Baetyl, than can we call her Kybele, Mother Earth or potnia theron? Using Pessinus as the city you have the temple to Kybele or Cybele. That would put you in the correct time frame circa 700 bce wouldn't it?
Just a thought at 1:00 in the morning.
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Mea culpa: I didn't look on a couple of plates further to those with kerykeion and wreath. Those indeed justify Babelon's thinking of the angelos athanatôn, Iris. Otherwise, 'kopperkid' certainly has done his homework; even I couldn't help thinking of the winged potniai thêrôn that he earlier posted, taken from the handles of the François Vase. It is perfectly fair to think of continuity and use the more evolved images to help identify the earlier more generic ones. Not that even the kerykeion quite proves that she is Iris--but do you really think she is as early as c. 700 BCE? With that face? I'd put her toward the end of the 7th c. BCE. Pat L.
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Here's another example from Kaunos with the winged female with tendrils. The date provide for this image is 490-470 bc. Would you agree with the dating? Also, this one appears to have the winged shoes as well.
To be honest, I almost bought a coin very similar to this one from a dealer in California last year. Now that I have started my research I regret not getting it.
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Nice find. On that example, it's clear that they are tendrils, and I would argue that they are insect-like. Very similar to the antennae of a butterfly or moth. I wonder if, in antiquity, Iris was associated with flying insects. It's clear from Homer that the classical association is with the rainbow, but what if brightly colored butterflies or moths carried similar association. If the tendrils were "scrolls," a term I associate with written language or information transfer, it seems that this usage would make more sense if the tendrils/scrolls were placed in her hand and not eminating from her head.
BTW - I'd kick myself too for not buying that coin. ;D
Pul.
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I'm going to go with the idea that the engraver was copying the artistic styles of the time period rather than trying to link to a creature. If we look at location and religion in the area, I'm wondering if this winged woman (leaving the tendrils out) is not something out of Zorasternism (sorry on the spelling on that one). I base that on the persian rule at the time.
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Anything dated by type and style, as I gather this coin is (though find contexts may contribute), must be dated by its latest traits. The griffin accords well with the beginning of the fifth century, IMO. The tendrils by now have been repeated and repeated for generations. Their origin was as a plant form (not a realistic one), which is why they are called tendrils. Look back to those from Aegina and on the Chigi vase which I posted; they are about a century and a half earlier. On the earliest headpieces there is a little lotus or palmette flower in between the roots of the tendrils (as on the vase-painting from Aegina). It is not only how things look but how they came to look that way. Pat L.
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Pat-
I'm gonna start calling you "The Source."
As to our griffin, he too, is wearing the palmette, just like the Aegean pottery. You have to look pretty close on this sample, but if you look in coinarchives.com you'll find some better samples.
Regards,
Ryan
p.s.: I did receive the Greeks OVerseas book and am 1/3 of the way through. My second book still isn't here..bumber..
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But what is the purpose of the plant-based tendril (with or without lotus)? Does it confer some sort of status or meaning or was it purely a decorative device of the period?
Pul.
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The griffin has a 'dragon' crest, one reason for dating it down in the 5th century, and equine ears. I'll find you one with wonderful ears. Pat
OK, here's a whole case full of early griffins in Berlin, and, Look, you have taught me something. One at lower r. has a flower thing instead of a knob. And here's the one in NY MMA (one of its ears is missing). These range, I guess, from c 650 to c 570, all of them too early to have a dragon crest.
When it comes to creating griffins and all the rest in the Early Archaic, they are having too much creative fun to worry about "purpose", and a distinction between decorative and meaningful has yet to be made. But mortal women don't wear them, only divinities and 'monsters' in the literal sense of that word.
P.S. Because it is earlier and because it is not susceptible (as a mere snapshot of an object still at its find site) to provenience questions, I am substituting the Delphi griffin for the New York one.
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But what is the purpose of the plant-based tendril (with or without lotus)? Does it confer some sort of status or meaning or was it purely a decorative device of the period?
Pul.
I don't think I can answer you question fully, but looking in the Louvre, you'll find a column capital that depicts a goddess with the scrolling hair and then a "naiskos" on top with more "tendrils" and flowers running up the side. I think it might be safe to say that the coins are reproducing part of this design.
http://www.louvre.fr/llv/oeuvres/detail_notice.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673225222&CURRENT_LLV_NOTICE%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673225222&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=9852723696500787&fromDept=false&baseIndex=3&bmUID=1168664591240&bmLocale=en
Regards,
Kopperkid
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Bravo! That is an excellent example of the kind of thing I had in mind in speaking of Levantine (Phoenician, if you prefer) art ultimately
based on Egyptian prototypes, such as certain crowns.
Pat L.
Something has gone amiss with the width of the window!
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Here's my artistic attempt to outline the fiugre on Weidnauer 175.
Almost forgot one of my personal favorite series:
Caria, Kaunos AR Drachm or Half Stater. Ca 490-470 B.C. Iris with curved wings and outstretched hands in a kneeling-running position right, looking back / Griffin standing left, raising forepaw, within dotted border in quadrilateral incuse.
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Hey Pat, what about this?
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/crowns2.htm
Would the triple atef crown have any influence on curley-cues on the coins? I'm thinking like the sphinxes and Kaunos coins???
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I think not--not directly. The early Greeks, as described before, got that repertory from the east Mediterranean region, from Syrians and the ones we call Phoenicians. Now there is some half-digested Egyptian stuff in Syro-Phoenician art. I think that, if the Greeks were indebted to Egypt for these, they didn't know so, and probably the Levantine artisans whose work they borrowed from didn't know so themselves: it would be indirect, at several removes from the source. There's a roomful of this material in the Louvre, but I'm answering here simply because the Reply button is, at the moment, missing from the pages of your thread. Remember: this borrowing was about a century earlier than the first Greek trading posts in Egypt.
Here's a couple. I don't have notes on them, but the male figure is from Ras Shamra.
Pat L.
Really, you need to do some serious reading on this kind of trade art. It's not as if I were up to date on it.
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Pat-
I have a bad habit of speaking out loud all the time. I was just throwing out the Egyption crown because I see quite a few with the sprial wire. As for the triple atef as an idea. I was thinking about the Levatine piece capital in the previous post. I thought that the triple atef had the same form as the Levatine capital with the curls going up the side and the idea of lotus flower and idea of the solar child emerging. If you look at the Levatine example, you have someone emerging from a temple. I was thinking temple=lotus, godess exiting the portal= solar child emerging. I just looked that the image again and we even have a winged solar disk above the portal. Once again, just a guy with a big imagination.
I did find this at the Louvre:
http://www.louvre.fr/llv/oeuvres/detail_notice.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673225229&CURRENT_LLV_NOTICE%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673225229&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=9852723696500800&baseIndex=4&bmUID=1189221225944&bmLocale=en
I'm gonna keep poking around in there. Thanks for keeping me straight!
Ryan
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Here's a nice eary one that HJB has up for auction. Once again, you will need to break open your kids piggy banks to pay for this one!
[LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
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Yes, I saw that. Awesome thing. If it were a vase-painting I'd date it ca. 600 by the horse's head, but we don't have any such horse heads
on Ionian painted pottery quite so early. Pat L.