FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Ancient Coin Forum => Topic started by: Varangian on April 28, 2005, 01:00:01 am
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You know what I'm talking about.
That flagship specimen of butt-ugly you keep stashed in a dark corner of your cabinet.
The one you know you should try to pawn off on some suck...ah, connesieur on Ebay, or just toss in the slug jar, but for whatever reason you know you'll never do it. The one that you'll never show off, but can't bring yourself to be rid of it.
Here's mine. A Vespasian IVDAEA CAPTA sestertius I got as part of a lot. Yeah, that's what it looks like in hand. Every time I look at the hideous thing, I think I'll toss it in the junk jar. But when I hold that heavy bronze frisbee (35mm/20g) in my hand, it just seems to stick until I place it back in its flip and in the cabinet.
Let's see 'em! I can't be the only one!
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If you want ugly, I can give you ugly. This one is acting as a space filler, which is something I do not usually do but this came for the price of a cup of coffee and so I couldn't resist.
Obv:– IMP PROBVS INV AVG, Radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right.
Rev:– PROV PROBI AVG NOSTRI, Providentia standing left, holding baton and cornucopiae; at foot, globe
Minted in Siscia (_ | S / XXI)
Reference:– Cohen 503. Alfoldi type 55, no 3. RIC 729 Bust type C (R2)
NOSTRI coins do not come up that often and when a nice example comes up I am unlikely to be able to stretch to getting one.
I trust this is ugly enough!
Regards,
Martin
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Despite the corrosion, I consider that an eminently collectible example, because of the COMPLETENESS of every single detail of types and legends.
With further cleaning and retoning, it could perhaps also be made considerably more attractive to the eye!
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Hi,
Here's my collectable pig!
Vabalathus as augustus. An antoninianus from the Antioch mint.
Obverse: IM C VHABALATHVS AVG
Reverse : VICTORIA AVG, victory walking left
RIC 6 (r3), C 6.
Regards,
Mauseus
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I think this coin also has considerable "oink factor" ... I won't identify it in case a relative newcomer wants a puzzle to solve...
Steve
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This one is one of my five Never Ending Cleaning Contest coins. For that reason I must ask that no one help in it's identification please. I'll post the final attribution shortly on the appropriate broad.
Maximus - 20.5mm
Wish me luck in the contest?!!
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Oh, these poor little worn-down etc. coins that would be watering everyone's mouth two or three conservation degrees higher up but which are often to be had for extremely little money, they have a firm place in my collection, there are quite a few that I want to give a good home. Some weeks ago, I showed the 3-Euro Marciana (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=17619.0), here are a Magnia Urbica I picked from a lot of six coins, and a Max Herculius denarius (!) which some barbarian chieftain probably wore on his helmet. I can't resist such coins. Quite spectacular, of course, is your Vabalathus, Mauseus!
Rupert
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Sometimes uglies even cost a fair amount. I payed $60 for this thing. But it is an RIC unlisted Constantius I 1/4 follis from Trier. There is just enough of the reverse to see an X at the bottom, a T to the left in the middle, a V to top left and positively (pretty much) ID it as VO/TIS/X which is not listed for Constantius I in RIC VI, but certainly would be possible. When I first saw this thread, I immediately thought of this coin and thought it looked worse than it is even. I probably have worse coins somewhere.
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Hi Rupert,
I couldn't resist doing a little swop deal with Richard Plant for the Vabalathus, a deal that also got me a Tetricus I mint 1 issue I CONCORDIA AVG antoninianus and a Victorinus mint 1 issue II COMES AVG (Victory walking right) - both of which are extremeley difficult coins to find, although they are underrated in RIC. For my part of the exchange I used a very nice Byzantine follis from the Seleucia mint.
I am very partial to late third century fractionals, even with a piercing and, perhaps surprisingly given my love of third century coins, I do not have a Magnia Urbica (although I do have a lead seal that might be her in a pose face to face with a male portrait.
Regards,
Mauseus
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For this washed-out As of Caracalla, I bought a whole 44-coin large lot in last January's Triton sale!
I love coins that are rare on both sides, obv. and rev.
The rev. of this As is PROF AVGG in exergue, PONTIF TR P XI above, S C in field, Caracalla on horseback right, preceded by one soldier and followed by two others. It commemorates the departure (Profectio) of the Severan family on their British campaign in 208 AD.
This same type occurs on sestertii, dupondii, and asses of Septimius Severus (dated TR P XVI), and on sestertii of Caracalla. I never expected to find it on middle bronzes of Caracalla, however, because he already had two other middle-bronze types commemorating the departure, which occurred for him only, and which I thought were his counterparts of Severus' more elaborate type: PROF AVGG Caracalla on horse r., captive before horse, and PROF AVGG Caracalla on horse l., riding down enemy.
This is the first appearance of the departure type with added soldiers on a middle-bronze of Caracalla. The type is overall very rare, for only about a dozen such middle bronzes from two rev. dies are known for Septimius, and only a couple of specimens of the sestertius are recorded for each emperor.
As to the obverse, this is Caracalla's only As die that adds the names M AVR to his usual middle-bronze legend ANTONINVS PIVS AVG. The list of other rev. types that occur with this obv. die is spectacular. COS II Banquet of Hercules, unique in Paris. IOVI SOSPITATORI Serapis in shrine, one rev. die only, also occurring so far ONLY with this obv. die. Then a number of other rare and interesting types which are shared between this obv. die and others with the shorter, normal obv. legend: Caracalla on prancing horse, dated TR P X or XI; TR P XI Galley; VICTORIAE AVGG Victory in biga; RESTITVTOR VRBIS Roma seated.
The new PROF AVGG type is apparently the latest to have been coupled with this obv. die, which came into use in 207 and remained active at the beginning of 208.
Fortunately there were some other desirable and nicer coins in that same Triton lot!
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Here's the picture. (I hope...) Thanks to Susan Headley for taking it and showing me how to post it.
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Wow, that was a heck of a find, Curtis! How many other bidders do you think picked up what you did from the auction photo?
Knowledge is always power....
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Since this coin was included in a large lot, it wasn't illustrated or exactly described at all (merely as an As of Caracalla) in the printed catalogue. There may have been an ensemble image of the lot on CNG's website, but I never looked.
I doubt that any personal examiner of the lot before the sale other than myself recognized the coin and appreciated its significance. It can't qualify as a "find", however, because in this condition its value is modest even when correctly IDed and commented on!
I forgot to mention one other appearance of this Profectio type of 208 AD with accompanying soldiers: on a unique large bronze medallion of Septimius that shows not just one horseman setting out, but three, Septimius along with Caracalla and Geta.
Forvm has just listed an As of Septimius Severus showing one of the same reverse types that was also struck with the long-legend obverse die of Caracalla: VICTORIAE AVGG S C, Victory in biga.
The obv. die of the Forvm coin also happens to be the one from which the asses of Septimius with his own Profectio type with soldiers, PROF AVGG P M TR P XVI S C, were struck!
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Very interesting indeed. This is the sort of coins that are virtually worthless to most collectors (what would it bring on Ebay, if not accompanied by an expert description??) but priceless to a numismatist.
Rupert
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I agree, here is my most recent precious ugly duck. Caracalla AE24, AV M AVR ANTONINVS, bust cuirassed, draped, right, seen from behind; MVNIC ST/OBEN, Zeus seated left, holding scepter and Nike.
Josifovski 526, same dies, one specimen listed from a private collection.
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This one was a bugger for me to ID because of the wreath being held at waist level rather than the standard elevated loft. But I saw one at a show, a Valens, didn't squander the $30 asking price, and now retain a relatively rare reverse. Its so ugly, its almost hit the coins for kids jar several times, but I just can't seem to part with it.
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Hi,
Wanted to revive this topic to display the latest addition to my bag of odds and ends that are too poor to go into my collection but yet are of interest to frustrate people when I tip them onto the table.
It is a "zapped" sestertius of Nero Claudius Drusus in a shocking state of preservation but still worked out good value (in my eyes at least) when I picked it from a rummage tray last Sunday for £1! RIC 93 I think, rather than 109.
Regards,
Mauseus
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This is a vile object; I wish it were fake, but it seems not. It was issued (before someone used Brillo on it?) by Cosconnius Gentianus (see the KOSK...?), and it is Septimius.
Believe me, a good Gentianus head is very nice indeed.
It was an early and confusing acquisition: acquisition squib included for amusement.
22 08 01 AE 25 Nicopolis ad Istrum. Septimius Severus, laureate, draped bust to r. AV KA[L SEPT] SEVEROS PE (for Pertinax): the missing letters in brackets to match those in Pick; this reverse is not in AMNG I, 1. Rev., Dionysos, turned l., holding bunch of grapes in his r., with tall thyrsos (tied with ribbon bow) in his l. VP KOSK GE[NTIANOV] NIKOPOLITO[N] and in exergue PROS IS. Coin covered with toughened black sludge, partly removed by dint of something like Brasso, revealing the brass but not much of the features (but further cleaning seems unadvisable). Auspex and Tertullus belong to Nicopolis, but Gentianus issued coins also at Marcianopolis; are any concurrent?
Pat L.
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Here's another one of mine. I couldn't resist it in the bargain box for 10 DEM about ten years ago. It's the rare sestertius of Diva Faustina II that has the title of MATRI CASTROR on the obv. and the funeral pyre on the rev., RIC (Marc. Aur.) 1709, rated R2. Much too interesting to let it go!
Rupert
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Constantine looks like he has some really bad acne on this coin.
Gunner
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This is really a nice coin - with the obvious exception. Looks like an acid burn
All the best
-:Bacchus:-
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This was one of a batch of crusties I got to play with. It's the last one (good thing, because I am SICK of them!!).
It is truly ugly. Worn, pitted extensively, chipped, and cracked. But darned if there weren't enough details remaining to attribute it. And it turned out to be interesting, a dual caesar coin!
Titus and Domitian (minted under Vespasian), Stobi, Macedonia, 25mm, 7.42g, axis 180
OBV: T CAESAR IMP DOMITIANVS CAESAR; head of Titus, r., facing head of Domitian, l.
REV: MVNICIPI STOBENSIVM; tetrastyle temple; inside, cult figure; globe on pediment.
RPC II, 311
Mark
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Mark, that got my attention. RPC 311, Cohen I 464, NBRM 23, Moushmov 6529. The cult figure is thought to be Askelpios. Ugly yes, but a nice find.
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It was indeed a nice surprise. I could see two busts early in cleaning and assumed it was a fairly typical provincial. Uncovered enough to read STO on rev and to see that obv legend was in Latin and went whoa, something interesting here!
I'd hoped you would notice the post and comment, as you are certainly the Stobi expert. So, thanks for the additional attribution references!
Mark
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My coin is so ugly, the Mrs. slapped me when she saw it. (drum roll). This is the kind of coin that needs to be held at that special slant in the light to see any of the remaining detail. But I do just that and am happy for the privilege. The coin is a sestertius, 33 mm and 24.4 gm. The portrait is that of Nero Claudius Drusus Germanicus, the son of Livia, brother of Tiberius, husband to Antonia and father of Claudius, Germanicus and Livilla. Now I ask you, How can I watch 'I Claudius' without pulling this coin out to help make the electric connection to the real person that shook the earth two thousand years ago?
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Behold my shame. This one used to have a ghost image of what it was once. From my first lot of uncleaned coins. Soap+Brass Brush+Water+less than 30 seconds= SHINY and the ghost image in its corrosion entirely gone.
Used to be a Trajan seated on platform with advisors, addressing a group soldiers. You used to be able to clearly make out RATOR on the reverse and could see the soldiers legs and midsections clearly... but now... I've got to draw some of the detail for you.
Still. Rarer.
:)
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I don't mind a poor coin, if nothing else is available!
Around 1970 I bought my first large Roman bronze medallion, a bimetallic piece of Commodus with rev. VIRTVS AVG P M TR P XI IMP VII COS V P P, Roma seated r. above cuirass and shields, balancing parazonium on her knee, in background left a Victory holding a round shield, apparently intending to place it on a trophy in background right.
The same type, I determined, occurred only two other times on Roman coins: on a unique bronze medallion of Lucius Verus, and on a unique sestertius of Titus as Augustus in the Paris collection, with legend ROMA S C, the second coin illustrated below.
Here, in corroded state, is a second specimen of that Titus sestertius, from the same rev. die as the Paris coin, but with portrait right instead of left on the obverse!
This right-facing obv. die is also rare in its own right, for its legend begins IMP TITVS CAES rather than the normal IMP T CAES. IMP TITVS CAES is the form used on Titus' very rare sestertii of 79, which also occurs on a very few dies, apparently the earliest of the year, in 80.
Unfortunately the IMP TITVS is almost corroded to illegibility on my coin, but I think enough remains to guarantee the reading. It would be nice to settle the matter for good, however, by finding a clear specimen from the same obv. die!
My new coin is so broad and round that the thought crossed my mind, could this type for Titus just be the invention of a clever and skilled modern forger, copying the genuine medallions of Commodus and Verus? So I was relieved to discover in our photofile that the left-facing obv. die of the Paris specimen was also used to strike an obviously authentic sest. of Titus with one of his normal rev. types, IVD CAP S C, Jew and Jewess below palm tree, in Stack's Knobloch Sale of 1980, lot 352.
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A beautiful portrait, absolutely! Also, you can read the letters ...MNA to the right which means its part of the first emission of Rome which, if I remember it correctly, was struck at Rome only until late 194 and which is thus rather rare. Rarer than denarii, and much rarer than the Eastern denarii which had this early legend for a longer time.
Rupert
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I certainly didn't realize how rare this coin was at the time that I bought it. I just fell in love with the portrait. Even if it was a very common issue, it'd have been a steal at the price I paid for it.
Perhaps this coin is a little too nice for this thread. Not a true "ugly duckling".
I wonder if any of these IVNO REGINA reverse dies were leftovers from the Manlia Scantilla Sesterces of the previous year.
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I'm 100% sure Curtis can tell you that. (And if he doesn't know, nobody does.)
Rupert
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I expressed the same thought in my Oxford thesis of 1972, p. 124, not just because the type is the same as Scantilla's, but because it behaves very strangely for Julia in 194.
Types were usually struck for Julia in strict succession, one after the other. The die sequence of Julia's sestertii and middle bronzes, however, suggests that in 194 the IVNO REGINA type INTERRUPTED the VESTA type, which was struck both before and after IVNO REGINA.
Moreover the type was not struck at all on Julia's aurei and denarii in 194. She has no IVNO REGINA aurei or denarii with DOMNA still in her obv. legend, and the gold and silver coins of that type without DOMNA seem to belong to 196 not 194, when the type was also revived on sestertii. This was contrary to usual practice, which was that the same reverse type was struck for Julia IN ALL METALS.
It would make sense if the strange intrusion of the IVNO REGINA type onto Julia's sestertii and dupondii in 194 resulted from the decison to use some old rev. dies of Scantilla's which happened to have been kept. However I have not yet noted an actual rev. die that was shared by Scantilla and Domna.
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I know I posted this coin a few months ago in another section, but it seems relevant, and it is my personal favorite 'ugly' out of all the coins I've owned
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Wow, I'd love to have that coin, no matter what condition! This sestertius in EF+ would buy a minor house or a BIG car!
Rupert
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This one is REALLY UGLY. It is an Emesa denarius of Septimius Severus. It is only of interest in trying to figure out what has happened to the reverse. It is supposed to be SAECVL FELICIT, creacent and seven stars but the legend is all over the place, with clogged letters and some odd ones, reading more like
AE[C]VI C[ELIC]IT.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10618/RI%20064dv%20img.jpg)
Regards,
Martin
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This Aurelian is so ugly, it makes me angry to look at it.
The condition is VERY fine, in those few places that don't have that butt-ugly corrosion.
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This one's right at home in this thread!
A common enough type - Constantine I SPQR OPTIMO PRINCIPI - issued by Constantine all pleased with himself after his victory over Maxentius!
What makes this nasty specimen worth the $3.46 is the mintmark - PARL indicating Arles rather than the common Rome or Ostia. You can just make out enough detail to attribute it: RIC VII Arles 9 R5.
Apart from being scarce, what makes the Arles issue of this type interesting is that it's testament to the Ostia-Arles mint transfer that took place in 313 - the Arles mint not just picking up with Constantine's regular coinage, but also making this special victory type due to the transfer from Ostia. Arles issued this type for both Constantine and Licinius, but not Daia, so the transfer seems to have taken place after Daia's death (Constantine did issue coins for Daia after his victory, so he wasn't out of favor).
The date of the Ostia-Arles mint transfer is confirmed to 313 by the two Arles types made to commemorate the transfer - VTILITAS PVBLICA which shows Moneta being seen off departing (from Ostia) by boat, and PROVIDENTIAE AVGG which shows her arriving and being greeted (at Arles). These types exist with consular bust marking Constantine's COS III in 313.
Ben
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Hey!...Your'e talking about my whole collection here dude! They may be ugly but they are in my temporary possession!
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Emperor: Septimius Severus (r. 193-211 AD)
Date: 201 AD (later) or after
Denomination: Limes Denarius
Obverse: SEVERVS PIVS AVG
Emperor Severus Pius
Head right, laureate
Reverse: PART MAX PM TR P VIIII
Victor over Parthia Chief Priest Tribune Ninth Term.
Trophy and two captives.
Limes Denarius of: RIC IV Septimius Severus 176; VM 95 (Rome mint)
2.89g; 18.3mm; 195°
It looks better in hand, but just slightly :tongue: It is still a very interesting coin for me, being a Limes.
Kevin :)
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This is a really ugly Julia Titi sestertius i have.
Observe: DIVAE JULIAE AVG. DIVI TITI F. S.P.Q.R.
Reverse: IMP. CAES. DOMIT. AVG. GERM. COS. XV. PER. P.P. S.C.
It´s not the picture, It´s the coin.
Ignacio.
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Here is mine,Faustina denarius.But i cant find my ugliest sesterz,oooo You all have to see that one:burned with holes and rust.Ugly like hell.
I want to give this coin to someone.Anybody interested? :angel:
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Hey Marcus Aurelius,
I would urgently advise you to keep this denarius. It's unpublished in Cohen and RIC and probably a hybrid with an obverse of Diva Faustina II. and a rev. that belongs to her lifetime coins.
Rupert
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But not a mint product I think. Note the scraggly lettering, DIA for PIA in obv. legend, rather crude style.
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Spaghetti hair and all, you're right. Still (IMHO) a very desirable coin!
Rupert
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My shameful ugly duckling.
I got this in an uncleaned lot and it took YEARS of soaking to even get it to where I could identify anything :-\
But in the end it looks like a Domitia. Laureate head of Domitian right :Greek_Delta:OMITIANON KAI :GreeK_Sigma:APA :Greek_Theta:E :GreeK_Sigma: :GreeK_Sigma:A :Greek_Delta:OI
Diademed bust of Domitia right :Greek_Delta:omitian :GreeK_Sigma:eba :GreeK_Sigma: :GreeK_Sigma: :GreeK_Sigma:thn
despite its appearance all that work and the fact Domitia is on it makes it keeper :)
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I haven't been collecting long but I already have a number of ugly ducklings. Here are a few select specimens. ;D
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15086/13006_2.jpg)
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15086/1f.jpg)
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Terminally bad.
010 AE (Orichalcum – brass) Sestertius, Posthumous issue in honor of Augustus, struck by Tiberius 14-37 A.D.
Mint of Rome, 36-7 A.D.
Obv: DIVO / AVGVSTO / SPQR. Cultus figure of Augustus in ornamented cart drawn by 4 elephants, left.
Rx: TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVST P M TR POT XXXIIX around SC.
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Those with sensitive stomachs should look away.....
The obverse...not too bad you might say....
Then.....the reverse...........arrrghhh!
It looks like someone lost their lunch on it. :-X
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OK Stick..... The reaction was instantaneous! Any suggestions on how to get this yuk out of my keyboard?
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Then.....the reverse...........arrrghhh! It looks like someone lost their lunch on it.
Little you know... This is the supremely rare PIZZAE ANCHOVIAE • CRVSTAE PROFVNDAE reverse of Tacitus. 2nd example known (yours!), the first being in the BNF
and stamped with the Gonzaga eaglet. What a fortunate man you are!
See what happens when one doesn't research/attribute properly? You owe poor Bob a new keyboard!
G/<
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Yuck! That coin's reverse almost made me lose my breakfast, Stick! :afro:
Andrew
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EGYPT, Alexandria. Hadrian Dichalkon 137-38 AD Pomegranate
Reference.
cf RPC III, 6261; Emmett 1199.22
Issue L KB = year 22
Obv.
Laureate head of Hadrian, right
Rev L ΚΒ
Pomegranate
2.07 gr
15 mm
12h
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Vespasian, first issue of 71 with full name VESPASIANVS:
IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG P M T P P P COS III, bust laureate r. resting on globe and with aegis on shoulder
FIDES EXERCITVVM, S C in ex. , clasped hands before legionary eagle on prow.
The obverse die is A23 in Colin Kraay's unpublished Oxford dissertation, the rev. die P75. Kraay didn't know this die combination, but it is recorded by RIC 70 from a single specimen in the Termopolio Hoard from Pompeii, published in 1997.
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Hi folks,
How about this one? (first coin):
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/ri_aug_ae_ptR03.htm
It may be a sea salvaged (salt water?) coin.
Meepzorp
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both eaten alive your and Randy
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The obverse die is A23 in Colin Kraay's unpublished Oxford dissertation, the rev. die P75. Kraay didn't know this die combination, but it is recorded by RIC 70 from a single specimen in the Termopolio Hoard from Pompeii, published in 1997.
Randy,
I'd be curious to learn your source for this information, since I think it must ultimately come from me. The number of people having access to a copy of Kraay's unpublished dissertation, and the inclination to use it to check dies, must be extremely small!
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The obverse die is A23 in Colin Kraay's unpublished Oxford dissertation, the rev. die P75. Kraay didn't know this die combination, but it is recorded by RIC 70 from a single specimen in the Termopolio Hoard from Pompeii, published in 1997.
Randy,
I'd be curious to learn your source for this information, since I think it must ultimately come from me. The number of people having access to a copy of Kraay's unpublished dissertation, and the inclination to use it to check dies, must be extremely small!
That's very interesting to me, since I own another example of RIC V 70, which has been recorded by the late Ted Buttrey in the RIC II A&C.
Kind regards
Alberto
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The obverse die is A23 in Colin Kraay's unpublished Oxford dissertation, the rev. die P75. Kraay didn't know this die combination, but it is recorded by RIC 70 from a single specimen in the Termopolio Hoard from Pompeii, published in 1997.
Randy,
I'd be curious to learn your source for this information, since I think it must ultimately come from me. The number of people having access to a copy of Kraay's unpublished dissertation, and the inclination to use it to check dies, must be extremely small!
You were the source :) a little over 7 years ago.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-74735
"Looks like Vespasian, first issue of 71 with full name VESPASIANVS:
IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG P M T P P P COS III, bust laureate r. resting on globe and with aegis on shoulder
FIDES EXERCITVVM, S C in ex. , clasped hands before legionary eagle on prow.
The obverse die is A23 in Colin Kraay's unpublished Oxford dissertation, the rev. die P75. Kraay didn't know this die combination, but it is recorded by RIC 70 from a single specimen in the Termopolio Hoard from Pompeii, published in 1997.
These are rare types: only one other obv. die of the issue shows this combination of aegis and globe for the bust, and this is the only rev. die of the FIDES EXERCITVVM type used in the issue, though a second such die was used later in the year with Vespasian's name abbreviated VESPASIAN (no -VS).
To see what your dies looked like before the corrosion, see RIC pl. 18, 117 and pl. 16, 71 for the obv. and rev. respectively! These are the same two dies on well preserved specimens in other die combinations."
"thanks for the help Curtislclay !"
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Thanks for the confirmation!
A little late, but please correct my typo in the last line: "TheSe are the same two dies", not "TheRe are".
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Fixed :) Didn't notice that either. Thanks again for the i.d.