FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Resources => 
Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers => Topic started by: canadian_boy on December 03, 2002, 07:20:21 am
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Here is a site which is trying to help collectors to track and be aware of some of the forgeries that are out there (on ebay, etc). For your info.
http://www.chijanofuji.com/ancientforgeries.html
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Yes, that Toronto group is ripping people off with a large selection of forgeries under a wide variety of identities, soon as one is shut down, they come back as something else. They are on both ebay and yahoo. I got burned by oceans-purity, bastards.
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Is good to know there are sites like that out there......I've recently started to raise my standards for collecting, and still have mostly an "un-trained" eye for spotting fakes :-/
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It appears they are back on Ebay, using the name "hvarotc" >:(
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Looks like E-bay must be getting to them quicker? I see now they are using 1 day listings :P Here are some examples.
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#2
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#3 , Looks awefully similiar to the one posted in the ID section earlier in the week??
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#4
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#5
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Compairision on #3 To the coin posted earlier by Kash??
Kashes coin
(http://www.collectiblesandstuff.com/images/coinimg.jpg)
Current listing by Hvrotoc
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/attachments/Fake_3.jpg)
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Same coin, different example.
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Could be the same seller which I brought to the attention 2 weeks ago.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?board=9;action=display;threadid=6812
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That is because both fakes are casts of this struck Slavey:
(image from www.ancients.info)
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This is what I was talking about in a different thread!! Forgers making copies of modern copies!! You would think that they would at least use a real coin to make copies of. But if people will buy them, Iguess the crooks will continue to make them any way they can.... :'(
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I just found them too and was going to post about!
stay away from: bircklayeranc
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They are now resorting to one-day auctions with all the privacy that they can get from ebay. They seem to have had some bids already!
Maridvnvm
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Somebody bid $110 on the Lysimachus tet - as if you could get a real one for that price! How many years now have these guys been selling these fakes?
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I have copied all these sales, and will post them to the fakes board, if I can get the confirmation from those here that they are indeed fake.
Other than the one day private auction, I do not yet have the skill to determine by eye that these are false.
Please let me know as soon as possible. Thanks!
Peter
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I know when I post coins for sale now I am going to add a warning about these one day private sales. Maybe EBay wont like it, but I dont think they can stop you from offering your own opinion. ;D ;D
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Sadly maost of their coins seem to have sold successfully. The fake Gordian Africanus (put on as Gord III) sold for over $500!
It is a sad thing that ebay don't put a halt to this.
Maridvnvm
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Actually the Slavey on this thread is quite nice, don't you think? I find it no wonder that some now collect the reproductions. I posted a Slavey Pertinax which, if I recall correctly, drew more positive responses than a genuine Balbinus, not to mention its twin, a Pupiennus. Drat! Now another collecting avenue, Paduans! Slavey strikes! I wonder about Slavey's master apprentices.... Have they yet produced their masterworks?
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Maybe we could declare a War on Reproductions. ;) Send the US 4th Infantry after the Toronto group. ;D
I've seen a lot of nice Slavey's. Pity his name sounds like a drunk naming a toilet. " 's lavvie, wanna piddle". I like his Syracusan deka repros a lot.
LordBest. 8)
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Sadly maost of their coins seem to have sold successfully. The fake Gordian Africanus (put on as Gord III) sold for over $500!
Yeah, I noticed that too. If people could only be so reasonably intelligent as to follow the simple rule of never ever bidding on private auctions if one doesn't know the seller. I don't know what to say. If one pays more than $ 500 for that bad fake labelled as GIII offered on a fraudulent (private) auction one almost deserves getting ripped off.
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My post was in reference to the scans posted by Ed. I consider that to be art. After all, the Romans emulated the Greeks, and some of the most sublime statuary exists only in replica of the originals. That esnible scan of Slavey depicts an exquisitely rendered reproduction, in my most humble opinion. One can not slight Slavey at his best!
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Maybe we could declare a War on Reproductions. ;) Send the US 4th Infantry after the Toronto group. ;D
I doubt Canada would let them in without one heck of a fight...
Evan ;)
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Back in December there were 2 sellers of fake Greek and Roman coins which popular opinion deemed Toronto Group Fakes. Both sellers were of Canadian registry.
Bricklayeranc started his ID in October of 2003, and ran 3 sales of these coins, 1 per month for October, November and December, all 1 day private auctions.
power_of_love had a prior ID for 2 years...January 2002 until December 2003. Right after changing ID's he had one sale of these coins, running concurrently in December with bricklayeranc.
I periodically check back on these ID's to see if new sales are forthcoming. My last check showed that power_of_love was no longer a registered user. Today I searched further and found that the user was suspended. It seems Bricklayer has been suspended as well.
I am used to seeing a new dealer pop up, sell his coins, then quit. Brick had a good run of 3 months, and fortunately it looks like Ebay caught up with the fraud. Seems like the same happened to power. One disturbing thing is that you need a new ID to start a new account with Ebay, especially if you have been booted. It looks like power_of_love may have been recruited to do some sales by whoever is still running the Toronto Group, unknowingly perhaps to the origin of the coins. Why have a clean 2 year record then do this out of the blue?
At any rate, as you are surfing Ebay, keep your eyes open for the new users or users with changed ID's, so far Canadian, selling these coins. As always, when found, the coins will be posted to the Fakes Board.
Peter
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How are Canadian anti-counterfitting laws?
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Laws in Canada are sufficient, the PROBLEM is getting the police to realize the seriousness of the crime that the Toronto asian counterfiitters are perpetrating. For some reason, Toronto police don't consider this gang to be a major problem - they consider this to be 'white collar crime' , hence minimum resouces are dedicated. They have made some arrests in the past but this group of asian gangsters is very adaptable. Ebay has been VERY responsive whenever this gang of jerks rears their heads! We simply have to be vigilante. It is unfortunate that all Canadian dealers / sellers are being hurt because of these schiesters!!!!!! >:(
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A lot of Toronto favorites are back with a new alias, kingofcoin4. I have downloaded all the images, and I will add them to my website later. I have an exam to study for right now.
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This time he is jupiterswrath on UK ebay.
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I haven't been lurking about much the past two weeks due to business on the homestead, but I checked out the Ebay site, unfortunately a little too late. There were only a few hours left in the sale, and he/she/they had 3 pages of coins. Couldn't grab them for the fakes boards in time, but I saw a bunch of our old favorites in there.
Sadly they will be back again, and I'll try to get the images then. Keep posting the "heads up" when you see them! >:(
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dennisp....when time permits, I would like permission to raid your page for additional entries for Forvm's fake board. Please let me know.
Peter
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Copy whatever pictures you want.
I can moved the 50+ Photoshop (.psd) format image files to my website. These average about 1.4 MB in size. I have plenty of space on my website.
The advantage of .psd files is that each picture is individually extractable and resizeable.
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The Toronto Group has reappeared as cointemplar. Once again, there were almost endless fakes for me to download. These are mostly the same old recycled cast fakes, but this time there do appear to be a couple of coins that were struck.
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hmmm... they're registered in the UK, but the item's in California. Definetly a change in pattern.
Evan :-\
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I hate these 1 day auctions. Just went to go see what was up for sale with an eye towards updating the Fakes Board, and "poof", he's already gone!
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This time as bricksoftime .
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Here is the Toronto group again as bricksoftime. A lot of familiar fakes, some new fakes, and one stamp. Once again, my fingers got a lot of exercise downloading all this stuff.
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GOT IT!! Just happened to see your post at work. In the middle of a wedding no less. Got to it with 46 minutes left, and got them all. Will post to the fakes board on Monday and Tuesday.
Thank you for the heads up!!! ;D
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Latest incarnation appears to be sesterdenar. New wrinkle tho', actually selling some legitimate items and some fakes mixed in. Funny thing is, for example, on his fake Pertinax denarius he provides the following admonishment: Note: This listing is restricted to pre-approved bidders or buyers only. Only 10 and a half hours left!
May be seen at:
(Link no longer valid. Removed by Administrator)
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sesterdenar warning was just posted elsewhere also. So another
name for the list. With only 10 hours, we had better get our bids in! ;D
bruce
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I don't believe it! Is he trying to go straight? He does have fakes that require preapproval to enter a bid but there are genuine coins (doesn't require approval) AND he is dumping a lot of fakes sold as fake! See below:
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He can be recognized by the private bidding, two days to pay, preapproval for bidding required, and the same fakes from his many previous seller's names. Usually has a few positive feedbacks from cheap stamp sales. This guy is not mysterious!
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Found this today, and I thought it was interesting...
1 day auctions and privite feedback - babylonian92
(Link no longer valid. Removed by Administrator)
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Hi,
Ebay pulled his auctions already. Maybe they are catching on?
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Got a heads up in a private message from whitetd about this, but when I went to search I found the user no longer registered. I then read this post, and all I can say is
OUTSTANDING!!
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Congrats to everyone here for their quick action in exposing babylonian92 and sesterdenar for their fake coins on ebay. Both were gone very quickly - this site is playing a great role in exposing fraud artists like this!!
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Just noticed antiquedealsell on e-bay, all the usual stuff, 24 hour, private, freedback based on some Canada 50 cents $1 sales.
Toronto?
(Link no longer valid. Removed by Administrator)
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If you notice all the original sales are based out of BC, Canada. They are selling in US $ and shipping to the US / Canada is $2 but shipping beyond that is $5 event though they are supposed to be based in the UK. They are just trying to make it appear from a superficial basis as though they are based in the UK since some people are starting to look out for some of the Canadian based sellers.
Martin
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Post updates and the latest on the Toronto Group here.
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I believe Alan's booklet is available for download. Go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoinForgeryDiscussionList/files/
and choose "The Toronto Classical Coin Forgeries". There is also a 2nd edition in that directory, but as I recall the additional material was written by someone else.
(The URL may only be valid to CFDL members. Anyone wishing a copy of either edition can email me (esnible@acm.org) and I will forward a copy.)
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So that nobody duplicates the effort, I have downloaded all the pictures for this auction. Will post in Forgeries section, all 44 fakes!
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Odd, this one doesn't look too bad. Letters are a little soft. He doesn't actually have a real one here? Please confirm before I post it in Forgeries.
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Wow, ebay is getting faster, they`re gone already.
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Any opinions on the Caracalla denarius?
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OK, about half of the "jewunder" Toronto Group fakes have been posted, taking a break!
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They have all been uploaded! There is now a good sample of Roman Imperial fakes. Some of these have been appearing again and again and....
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All,
Here is another Toronto group seller that is going to catch some of the unwary.
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
There are several quite good looking coins here that are FAKE. Several are matches to coins in the Fakes Board from previous Troronto Group sellers.
I have downloaded the pics and will post to the Fakes Baord but have included a couple here for you to see and save you figuring it out yourself.
Coin 1 - A Nero den. from the Fakes Board
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/albums/userpics/10349/nero-salu.jpg)
And now a much better version by this seller.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/albums/userpics/10618/Nero_Salvs_Fake.jpg)
Regards,
Martin
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I have looked at all the coins that this guy has for sale and there ar a couple that I am not sure are Fake and may just be coins that he is claiming to own and just has the images. What do you think?
Here is a Vespasian den that is in very nice style and if it is fake then I am starting to worry.
Martin
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I am thinking set up a fake ebay account. Then buy all the coins online with clinching bids (really high ones) - send a 'personal' cheque which is actually an envelope with just a piece of paper inside saying 'Loser'.
At least will stop others from being able to buy them and anoy the hell out of the seller. Especially if you do it 3 or 4 times. Prehaps we should have a rotor?
;D
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Here is one that makes me think that thay are either getting better at this game or are just making images of the coin that they are taking the casts from.
The first coin appeared in the Fakes Board as a suspected fake:-
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/albums/userpics/10349/amph.jpg)
The second coin is for sale with the above seller and is a die match but of much better quality
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/albums/userpics/10618/Macedon_SNGCopenhagen1310.jpg)
Martin
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Well, if that Vespasian's a fake then I'm worried too!
It would certainly fool me.
Then again he could be just using the image and doesn't own the coin at all.
I'm thinking he's just using the image because I'm pretty sure I've seen that same coin before. I just can't recall where.
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Have a look at these three Domitians.
Coin 1
From this seller.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/albums/userpics/10618/domitian3.jpg)
Previously reported example -
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/albums/userpics/10349/domi-clap.jpg)
The current example would have me fooled if I wasn't already suspicious!
Coin 2
From this seller.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/albums/userpics/10618/domitian2.jpg)
Previously reported example -
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/albums/userpics/10001/normal_e11661.jpg)
Coin 3
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/albums/userpics/10618/domitian.jpg)
I find looking at some of these quite scary!
Martin
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I have posted the coins to the Fake Reports but have held back on the Vespasian Judea Capta for the moment.
Should I add it and not that it is suspected or leave it out?
Regards,
Martin
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The Domitians all look suspect to me...they all have that "flat" look to them.
The Vespasian on the other hand looks okay to me. That one has me puzzled. :-\
The style of the photography on that one is also different than the other pics... a dealer on V-Coins? It looks so familar.
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Is it possible that this seller has been a victim of the Toronto Group as opposed to part of it? The auctions don't quite fit the normal profile especially the fact that they are not private auctions. If that would be the case, possibly the Vespasian, and a few others?? could be authentic and he is using a higher quality dealer pic instead of his own?
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Plus the full attributions. I have not seen the Toronto group do this.
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I noticed the change in pattern but the number of doubtful coins seems too high for it to be just someone stung by the Toronto Group.
I would be interested in opinions on which of the coins that they feel are OK. I have my own list but would like to hera from others.
Martin
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I think you're completely correct. It is a shift from the 1 day, private auctions (only one feedback) but the die matches confirm, Toronto fakes. Glad to see the Macedon tet, wasn't sure that was a fake last time around. Also the Caracalla/quadriga denarius is now confirmed fake. Glad you caught this auction, tho' some people look to be burned.
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'Fraid I'm happy to pay $25 for a fake Macedon tet. It'll be interesting to see what happens. I love big Greek silver but
1. Can't afford it
2. Not sure if I were to look for it whether I could spot a fake
At least at this price I know its a fake and I get to appreciate the design.
Its a shame that it does look like some people are being taken in and thinking they're buying genuine.
Regards
Mauseus
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I'm glad the Fakes Board is actively serving its purpose!
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jdholds - one thing that hasn't changed from the recent pattern of the Toronto Group is that they are seling as though they are based in the UK but list in US $, which immediately rings alarm bells with me.
Bluefish. As soon as I suspected these coins I went to the fakes board and searched for the emperor in question and low and behold a bunch of die matches... It just shows that this will be an increasingly useful tool as we manage to catch more and more of these being listed.
Martin
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Martin, nice job. Looking in the Fakes gallery, I see that you have already noted the die matches. Yes, this is going to prove to be a powerful tool.
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I have been looking at the previous sales that this guy has made since 31st July. There are 13 sold coins with a sold value of over $800. There is a mix of known Toronto group fakes mixed with some stuff I haven't seen listed as fakes elsewhere and with one or two items that look good (like the Vespasian) and have hed their photos lifted from somewhere. There has been no feedback as yet from any of the sellers and there are some buyers here with feedback ratings as high as 313 and they have bought fakes.
I have downloaded all the images from the past sales and will post ones here for discussion if I have doubts. I hope that is OK.
Martin
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What about this Vespasian?
Struck 70-72 AD. IMP CAES VESP AVG P M COS IIII, laureate head right / AVGVR/TR POT, sacrificial implements. RIC II 30; BMCRE 50; RSC 43.
Martin
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And this one?
VESPASIAN. 69-79 AD. AR Denarius. Rome mint. Struck 76 AD. Laureate head right / COS-VII across field, eagle standing facing on garlanded base, head left. RIC II 99a; RSC 121. VF, detailed devices
Martin
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LIke you said, they are getting better. What stands out for me is the identical toning to each other and known fakes and that these jpeg files are small with low resolution which could be hiding casting pits etc. I suggest posting them in the Fakes gallery for future comparisons.
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Howdy!
Im too much of a newbie myself to be able to comment on if these are fakes or not. But after reading through these post about the pics being taken from other sites etc... I had an idea that may at least help to find out if a given seller has a coin or just a pic. If I suspected a seller had only a pic and no coin, I would request more pics of the coin, views like 3/4 view edge-on etc... since most places they could have gotten the pics from would most likely have only the head-on type. If they could not produce extra pics, that might be a dead give-a-way that they do not even have a coin to sell. This would not help much for those selling fakes as they would have a 'fake coin' to get more pics from but at least it would seem to help a little for those only trying to sell pics >:(
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Those last two Vespasians don't look right to me. The style seems a bit off.
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I have taken a look at three "Toronto Group" forgeries in hand and under the microscope. This was my first opportunity to get a look at them. I am happy to say in hand they are obvious casts. While some may look good in pics, they will not pass a careful look by any dealer or experienced collector. The edges are filed, the features blend into the fields, there are areas where the die did not fill completely, and realistic edge cracks are where they snapped off the sprue. Nothing high tech. Just ordinary cast copies.
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Looking at the latest Toronto Group postings, I am convinced some of the photographs are of genuine coins. They may be selling coins they used to make casts. They may actually ship a cast instead of the coin in the picture. Or they may just be stealing pics and not ship a coin at all. In any case, they seem to have changed their modus operandi.
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If that is the case, I suggest the genuine coins be removed from the list.
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FYI, priapuslarge was successfully NARUed. Keep your eyes out for their next attempt!
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Could you explain what "priapuslarge was successfully NARUed" means?
BTW, thanks for your vigilance on the fakes front.
Rhetor
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Sorry, NARU = not an registered user. Means that the sellers ID is no longer valid. Thus, Toronto Group sellers must establish a new identity before they try to defraud again!
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Priapuslarge certainly was a juvenile user name, no? Of course, I should talk....
Doug
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Is this the TORONTO GROUP? Coins look similar. Feedback isn't stamps though..actually bought some coins.
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
If it is, I downloaded all the pics already.
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For such nice coins, the seller is very low key. For example, the shekel of Tier only gives the 30 pieces of silver biblical reference of the coin. Nothing else. I think I would feel very uneasy about this with a flashing caveat emptor going off in my head.
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Yes jb, it's our old friends from the Toronto Group. The Hadrian with the Hispania reverse is identical to the one already posted on the Boards. Notice the cracked flan on the obverse at 5 o'clock, which is not shown on the reverse. There's a couple of new ones in this batch as well.
Thanks for copying them! It's a pain trying to catch them with the one day auctions. Good grab buddy.
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A tidy haul for a days work. About $3K at the time of this post.
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I think that these guys use also shilly biding.
I wonder that there are so many "naive" bidders with deep pockets who never visited Forum. The bidders know that the coins posted are very expensive.
They could not be ignorant that the lots posted are suspicious: the coins are crying fakes. I was just browsing and was simply striked
to see such a terrible string.
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Posted by: Joe Sermarini Posted on: November 16, 2004, 07:25:26 am
Looking at the latest Toronto Group postings, I am convinced some of the photographs are of genuine coins. They may be selling coins they used to make casts. They may actually ship a cast instead of the coin in the picture. Or they may just be stealing pics and not ship a coin at all.
hi all,
awhile back one of the - dealers sent a expensive, nice coin to the toronto dudes.
they sent him back a cast copy, claiming he had sent them the coin, which was obviously a fake. fortuneatly he had a photo of the coin in his coin file. i do not know how it all eventually turned out.
long story short; they used his authentic coin to make a casting die, so yes it appears they are also using authentic coins in their 'business'
jim hauck :) :) :)
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Well he liks all sorts of high tech electronics, most likely paid with his fake coins.
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
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Reid, the last two known appearances of the Toronto Group are discussed in this thread. If they (he?) appear again, hopefully they will be detected, exposed here, and their fakes posted. I would be glad to send you a "heads up".
Thanks. I've been following the Toronto forger since he first made his appearance more than three years ago, warning others in various ways. I was the person in fact who Wayne Sayles referred to, in two columns of his in the Celator, Dec. 2001 and Feb. 2002, as a "loose canon." He quoted my words and also implied I and others who were spreading the word were vigilantes, overly righteous, and do-gooders. His reaction, though, stemmed from a misunderstanding. He was forwarded an online message I left in which I relayed the Toronto forger's remark, in trying to lamely defend himself, that 95 percent of ancient coin dealers knowingly sell forgeries as authentic coins. Wayne thought it was me who said this, not the Toronto forger. Just so there's no misunderstanding here, I don't agree with this! The Toronto forger has passed the threshold of infamy. Because of the large number of people he has cheated, and how more than anything else he was responsible for the degradation of eBay as an ancient coin market, he's now a part of numismatic history.
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There is a ebay seller called Babylonruinz who seems to be posting a number of 'too good to be true' coins.
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
Don't know if there is a connection to the Toronto group, but auctions are private, three day and there seems to be a Canadian connection. Feedback is mainly for 99 cent cooking recipes. One is even for an e-book called 'How to generate 100 feedback in a week'.
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Looking through his roman offerings is like looking through the Who's Who in Fake Coins.
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That's a confirmed sighting of the Toronto group! Same old fakes!
Here's a die match for a forgery posted in the Fakes Gallery:
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
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Note that he never says the coins are genuine...
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And as always, almost all his coins have bids. Damn shame. >:(
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I have downloaded all the images. Someone has already posted a couple to the fakes board, which is great. I will add ones that other have not posted.
Regards,
Martin
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It is very "interesting" to see how the guy obtained his 20 feedbacks...buying recipes for coffee (0.99$), recipes for donuts( 0.99$), recipes for hotdogs (0.99), cajun recipes (0.99), a picture of a dog (0.50) and two items for 0.02$!!! But the very best is the book "How To Generate 100 Feedback in a week, With resell rights included", the first item he bought...
I would laugh if the money involved, even if it is not mine, was not so much!
It is easy for me to say people should check, really check the seller's feedback before bidding on these rare coins, but truth is that many a novice collector does not know how to discover this kind of tricks...SIGH!
Years ago I too fell for them...At those times, long before I discovered this Forum, I was looking for a Mariniana antoninianus, a Paulina denarius and a Didius Julianus denarius, and I found it on e-bay. They were very "well preserved" and I made an offer on them, thinking I would be certainly outbidded because, of course, "such rare coins would certainly attract many, wealthy bidders". Instead, to my surprise, I won all the three coins.
I don't exactly remember what happened next, but I recall that even before the coins arrived, I began to suspect they might be fake...as I recognized them to be as soon as I got them in my hands. I remember I wrote a complain to the seller and he tried to fool me by telling me he had cleaned those coins himself...
That was a lesson I will never forget and that pushed me to search for ways to educate myself better and to improve my knowledge about coins, style, dies, letters, weights etc.
Nowadays, I cannot say I am good as many of the people on this list, for I still have much to learn, but, at least I know such evident fakes will never fool me again!
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Yeah Stregnth, that's the MO alright. Very few feedbacks on totally unrelated material, then WHAM, hey, I just found a whole bunch of really nice, rare, ancient coins!
Fortunately they have been popping up less these days, and Ebay has managed to shut a few of the auctions down, but still.... we've seen them walk away with anywhere from $5000.00 to $8000.00 and up from their one-day private, bidder-protected auctions. Some times, but not often, they will run a 3 day auction.
If nothing else, as you mentioned, the Forvm is able to present a well laid out page of examples of these coins to help educate the public. Although it would be nice if more people knew it were here, I know it has helped quite a few members and guests who have visited our site. I think we will probably have 1000 coins or more in our database by the end of this year. considering that Joe started the concept only about a year or so ago, it is VERY impressive.
The vigilence of our members in spotting, reporting, and posting these coins is really what makes it all work.
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They are at it again. Check out vanityancients
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
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GGGGGRRRRR!!!! >:(
It makes me so angry to see almost all the coins have bids on them, while I have up for sale a bunch of genuine bronzes and there is no way to make the bidding rise! I have an Antoninus Pius dupondius I paid 150,00€ (and it is worth it) which after 5 1/2 days of auction has realized only 11.50$, while this person sells junk and has no problem finding bidders! >:( >:( >:(
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Don't get mad, get even! They got shut down last time. I just filed a report to ebay. The more that do the same the better.
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It's interesting they claim not to be in Canada but in UK this time, yet their auctions are in US$. Also interesting is their trick to get some feedback: they buy E-books now that cost .69 or .99 and are e-mailed for no shipping costs; you can't get a feedback cheaper! And I feel satisfied: I saw their coins and thought: Whoa, these do look strange, I wouldn't buy them... should I post them here? before I saw this thread. Maybe I'm getting better at spotting fakes. I hope so.
Rupert
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They have been using the ploy of trying to appear as though they are in the UK for about a year now (on and off) and US$ auctions from the UK grab my attention, even though there are some legit ones.
They have used a large number of images from previous incarnations this time. I have added comments accordingly in the matching images on the Fakes Boards.
Regards,
Martin
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They are at it yet again. This time under the name ciceronius33.
They got stopped the time before last, but not the last time, so I urge everyone to file a complaint to ebay.
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OK. I have finished posting comments and all the new images to the Fakes boards. There are quite a few new images in this batch including s few that are either the real coins or are very dangerous. They have been posted regardless, as they are being sold by the Toronto Group. Duplicate images have had comments and dates added. If anyone has a reference for the newly aded Galba that would be appreciated. Now we just need to get these guys shut down.
Regards,
Martin
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1. How do you explain that pictures 1 and 7 (Thasos tet) are the same? This coin is sold on january 29, then on feb 23; do they buy one to the other?
2. I can't find ciceronius33 in ebay listings.
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I checked this morning (10.30 GMT) and ciceronius33 doesn't seem to have any current or PAST listings, so presumably he has been successfully stopped (this time).
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1. How do you explain that pictures 1 and 7 (Thasos tet) are the same? This coin is sold on january 29, then on feb 23; do they buy one to the other?
They use the same picture (often more than twice) to sell their fakes. Why take a second picture to sell an identical cast fake?
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There are several people who as well as tracking what these guys are trying to seel, attempt to get them closed down by ebay before they have a chance to sting any unwary buyers. It looks like we managed it this time. Ebay have reporting mechnisms but since the auctions are generally one-day affairs it is sometimes too late to catch them.
As far as the duplicate images are concerned... we are generally trying to avoid posting the same image multiple times in the Fakes Boards but instead try and create a log of the different identities that have used the same image. There are several pictures however that depict the same coin but with different lighting etc. These are being added as they can each indicate more detail on the coin in question. Some are intended to mask the elements that made the coins obviously cast in previous examples.
Regards,
Martin
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would it be a good idea if somebody emailed the bidders, with their concerns over the suspect authenticity of the coins for sale?
The bidders may not even know about internet sites dealing with forgeries. (i certainly didnt until very recently, or the extent of the problem).
mick dale
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Mick,
Herein lies one major problem. The Toronto Group typically run Private auctions to prevent the bidders identities from being known and hence warned. The only way is to try and get ebay to take them off quickly.
Regards,
Martin
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i know its a longshot, but it seems this person/people are based in Canada and are knowingly making money by deception. Could a purchaser of a fake contact the local police with a view to prosecution? Surely ebay have or can trace details of the conman/conmens location as they will know what computer is being used to submit the listings?
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Could a purchaser of a fake contact the local police with a view to prosecution?
Yes, but it would only really be worth it if you lived in Canada. Otherwise you get to deal with all sorts of paperwork, beuracracy etc. Also, the Toronto Group uses PO Boxes, so an address can't be used to track them down.
Surely ebay have or can trace details of the conman/conmens location as they will know what computer is being used to submit the listings?
They have credit card numbers, but they're probably all fake or stolen. These people aren't dumb. Mass ISP recording on behalf of eBay would be useless, as there would too many to sift through, and a rotating ISP can be used on some computers.
I've always found that, despite his rantings, a certain ex-member had an interesting theory about the Toronto Group being related to the Big Circle Boy Gang (I think that's what they go by anyways). There's certainly a possibility of a link. Mention that you know how BCBG is getting some funding, I'm sure they'll be quite willing to help you. If you really wanted to, you could try to contact the RCMP organized crime unit:
http://www.rcmp.ca/contact/index_e.htm
Evan
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i know its a longshot, but it seems this person/people are based in Canada and are knowingly making money by deception. Could a purchaser of a fake contact the local police with a view to prosecution? Surely ebay have or can trace details of the conman/conmens location as they will know what computer is being used to submit the listings?
I tried it when I got stung a couple years back. Basically as Evan said there was a ton of Paperwork etc. and after that was all complete, I basically got the brush off. " Thanks, We'll look into it" :-\
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I am sure there is a post on this and if so please redirect me. How is it that a group sells fake roman coins and reaps a profit. Volume? Given that most romans sell for, in the general scheme of things not that much, where's the profit? I buy a fake Valens from such people and:
First, who would try to sell a Valens at an inflated price which I hope would not sell, or if regular market price then they've ripped me off for $1.25 plus postage? I'm a newbie but I also know that a "rare" coin has a certian historical look. The ones I've seen as fakes-the more expensive ones are and have a certian "look" that is not quite right. Very subjective, I know. But I've seen advice to newbies that basically say "Fakes have a certain look about them. When you gain experience you'll spot them".
I feel this to be true even in my embryonic stage of ancient coin collecting. Ok...you fake 35 Neros. You manage to sell them for say $40.00 apiece. How much did it cost you to fake them? It had to be some large fraction. To me falls under the category of "dumb crook".
"Yep I made almost 200 dollars last month selling fakes.? Why not sell drugs-much higher markup?
Dunno...makes little sense to me. Why don't they fake Morgan dollars or some such?
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Also on a philosophical note:
Faking is theft. When you buy a fake coin, it not that much different than if someone came into your house and stole whatever valuables he/she could find. They took your money by wire fraud didn't they? Do you think that if they had gotten into your house they wouldn't have taken you entire collection and whatever else they could have carted off? Just because it's electronic doesn't mean it's not home invasion and robbery.
Executive: "Well...his work history checks out ok. There is that one thing back in the 90's. He did some kind of scam thing about old coins. Well...we are looking for an accountant. Seems he paid the fine and did community service on that one. And anyway he's a whiz at the computer and knows accounting backward and forward. He'll make a good addition to our team. Everyone has a wild youth" (job prospect was 35 when he robbed people with fake coin scam)
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Ok...you fake 35 Neros. You manage to sell them for say $40.00 apiece. How much did it cost you to fake them? It had to be some large fraction. To me falls under the category of "dumb crook".
"Yep I made almost 200 dollars last month selling fakes.? Why not sell drugs-much higher markup?
The problem is they aren't selling Nero denarii or whatever for $40 a pop. They're selling them for $400. In one go they must make over 40k. Anyways, if my theory of their connection to the Big Circle Boys in correct, they do involve themselves in drugs.... and guns etc.
Evan
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Also the molds they use are obviously re-useable since we see the same fakes over and over. So you have the labor and expense of a single mold for each type, after that you are talking about the cost of silver (probably stolen) and the time to make a cast. And with most of the coins selling in the $200-$600 range, I would guess they are making a tidy profit. And since there does not seem to be a lot of interest in tracking these guys down, the risk / return ratio is pretty good,
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Postumus, all this coins are fakes :o
Mario
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Mario,
Yes, all these coins are fakes! For those who do not make use of the Fakes boards, then you should look through on a regular basis and familiarise yourself with the coins in there. These coins may well be bought and subsequently sold on, hopefully they will be noticed in time. Our members should be able to protect themselves from buying these.
As a moderator here I would like to thank postvmvs for his efforts. I went into the fakes board to add these coins and found that postvmvs had added many, and added comments to those where the image had simply been re-used. I have added the remaining items and added those new images that match different images of the same coin with links to the original image in the submission.
Regards,
Martin
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Hey everyone, glad to find an outlet to vent about the scammers on ebay. Of course ebay is slow to respond as if they just ignore it and it will go away. When I saw the 9 hour auction go up I paced around yelling at the bidders but obviously they could not hear and kept pushing the prices. Then it occured to me that if I won an auction right away I could leave negative with the "BEWARE COIN SCAM GOING ON"!!!!!!!!! so thats what I did. This stayed up until the auctions were over and I can only hope some saw it. As soon as the auctions ended the feedback went private. I now notice multiple negatives building. Unfortunatly I got a negative, quite funny actually. "tryed to pay using fake money" Im sure it will go a way when he de-registers. I was hoping we could all bid next time huge and win them all as a group effort. Kinda like throwing yourself in front of a train but I think it is worth it if we truly are a community, what do you all think? Mark
ps (my ebay is 62-play-dough 250 pos 1 neg for now)
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New ID: uganda_ancient
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZuganda_ancientQQhtZ-1
The ID was registered Jul-20-05 in Canada, but the first feedback dates from Feb-19-06. There are 39 auctions, all private 3 day auctions that end on Feb. 25, 2006. They built up their feedback rating by selling the ebook "Top Chinese restaurant recipes" for $0.01.
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Agreed: uganda_ancient coins below in this thread...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=26532.0
Best, Noah
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All the offerings from this new incarnation of the Toronto Group have been added to the Fakes Boards.
Regards,
Martin
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This thread has been silent for a while ??? Have these lowlifes moved on, or are they lulling us into a false sense of Security while they make some fresh molds that we wont recognize as quickly??
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As a Canadian I hate to see this sort of crap going on. Though sadly there does not appear to be anything you can do, given the sort of information posted here, to prosecute anyone, especially given that police up here set a very high thresh-hold (dollar value) before they can justify putting their, or public prosecutors', time into a case.
I was told by a Toronto fraud squad detective several years ago that they could not look at a fraud case under $1 million dollars. That does not mean that there is no other hope as many crimes are handled by regular CID units.
Also with most fraud-like crimes you have to prove mens rea, or intent, to commit the fraud which is very hard to prove. This is why the recent Eftis acticle was so important - in it he made statements which equate to proof of intent to defraud which should lead local UK police to investigate this as a crime.
Anyway, if anyone ever does come up with evidence of crime which is possibly useable against this Toronto group I am more than willing to bring it to the attention of friends in the Toronto and RCMP police forces.
Shawn caza