FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board

Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Byzantine Coins Discussion Forum => Topic started by: glebe on May 31, 2020, 12:56:23 am

Title: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on May 31, 2020, 12:56:23 am
For those interested in the 12th century trachea and tetartera of Byzantium I attach some tables summarising the various issues of these types.

Ross G.

Hmm - the tables didn't display as I would have liked, so I have pulled them for the moment.


Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on June 01, 2020, 02:41:01 am
Well, here are the tables anyway. (Click on the images for better quality images you can adjust to size).

Included in the tables are estimates of the average weights of the various types as we now have them, derived from the market sales listed in acsearch (hopefully avoiding assignment errors and duplicates), and also the data in DOC IV.

The tables are intended to provide a convenient reference framework for discussions of the more esoteric topics in this area of study, particularly for those new to the area.

Ross G.

Edit: Tables last modified:

 25 July 2020 (Alexius III).
  8 Aug. 2020 (Manuel I).
 9 Nov. 2020 (Alexius I).
14 Nov. 2020 (Alexius I).
24 Nov. 2020 (Alexius I & Alexius III).
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: joma-tk on June 01, 2020, 06:21:30 am
Dear Ross

Thanks for the tables.
Can you also provide them in Excel form?

Regards

tk
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on June 01, 2020, 06:46:07 am
The original data is in an Excel spreadsheet, but the tables are simply a summary in word format.

Since I can't create tables on Forum I had to snip the word doc and convert it to jpg
for display here (hence the dodgy quality).

People can of course make up their own tables in whatever form suits them.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on June 01, 2020, 07:01:52 am
Actually I do have the tables in docx, rich txt and pdf format, all of which display nicely (but none of which can used in Forum posts it seems).

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Quant.Geek on June 06, 2020, 09:11:39 am
Here is an example I did a while ago using tables:


(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36484/Sear-1616.jpg)
Metal: AR
Denomination: Miliaresion
Mint: Constantinople
Obv: IҺSЧS XRISTЧS ҺICA; Cross potent set on three steps
Rev: +MIXA/HL S ΘЄOFV/LACtЄ ЄC Θ'/ bASILIS RO/mAIOҺ; Inscription of Michael and Theophylactus in five lines across field
References: Sear-1616 (https://www.amazon.com/Byzantine-Coins-Their-Values-David/dp/0713477407?ie=UTF8&ref_=asap_bc); DOC-3 (https://www.amazon.com/Catalogue-Byzantine-Dumbarton-Collection-Whittemore/dp/0884020126/ref=sr_1_17?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465919019&sr=1-17)
Provenance: Gemini LLC Auction III, Lot 530 (https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=352168)


(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36484/Sear-1617.jpg)
Metal: AE
Denomination: Follis
Mint: Constantinople
Obv: Crowned and facing bust of Michael, wearing loros, holding globus cruciger and scepter
Rev: Large M between X/X/X and N/N/N; above, cross; beneath, A
References: Sear-1617 (https://www.amazon.com/Byzantine-Coins-Their-Values-David/dp/0713477407?ie=UTF8&ref_=asap_bc); DOC-7 (https://www.amazon.com/Catalogue-Byzantine-Dumbarton-Collection-Whittemore/dp/0884020126/ref=sr_1_17?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465919019&sr=1-17), under Michael II
Provenance: Savoca Numismatik GmbH Auction 7, Lot 634


Code: [Select]
[hr]

[table]
[tr]
[td][img width=256 height=128]https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36484/Sear-1616.jpg[/img][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td]
[td]
[table]

[tr]
[td][i][b]Metal:[/b][/i] AR[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][i][b]Denomination:[/b][/i] Miliaresion[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][i][b]Mint:[/b][/i] Constantinople[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]Obv:[/i][/b] [i]IҺSЧS XRISTЧS ҺICA[/i]; Cross potent set on three steps[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]Rev:[/i][/b] [i]+MIXA/HL S ΘЄOFV/LACtЄ ЄC Θ'/ bASILIS RO/mAIOҺ[/i]; Inscription of Michael and Theophylactus in five lines across field[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]References:[/i][/b] [url=https://www.amazon.com/Byzantine-Coins-Their-Values-David/dp/0713477407?ie=UTF8&ref_=asap_bc]Sear-1616[/url]; [url=https://www.amazon.com/Catalogue-Byzantine-Dumbarton-Collection-Whittemore/dp/0884020126/ref=sr_1_17?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465919019&sr=1-17]DOC-3[/url][/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]Provenance:[/i][/b] [url=https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=352168]Gemini LLC Auction III, Lot 530[/url][/td]
[/tr]

[/table]
[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

[hr]

[table]
[tr]
[td][img height=128 width=256]https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36484/Sear-1617.jpg[/img][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td]
[td]
[table]

[tr]
[td][i][b]Metal:[/b][/i] AE[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][i][b]Denomination:[/b][/i] Follis[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][i][b]Mint:[/b][/i] Constantinople[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]Obv:[/i][/b] Crowned and facing bust of Michael, wearing loros, holding globus cruciger and scepter[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]Rev:[/i][/b] Large M between X/X/X and N/N/N; above, cross; beneath, A[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]References:[/i][/b] [url=https://www.amazon.com/Byzantine-Coins-Their-Values-David/dp/0713477407?ie=UTF8&ref_=asap_bc]Sear-1617[/url]; [url=https://www.amazon.com/Catalogue-Byzantine-Dumbarton-Collection-Whittemore/dp/0884020126/ref=sr_1_17?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465919019&sr=1-17]DOC-7[/url], under Michael II[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]Provenance:[/i][/b] Savoca Numismatik GmbH Auction 7, Lot 634[/td]
[/tr]

[/table]
[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

[hr]
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Joe Sermarini on June 06, 2020, 10:09:39 am
Nice, except please don't link to photos that are not on Forum that will turn into red Xs someday. Add them to your gallery and link to them there, please.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Quant.Geek on June 06, 2020, 10:49:04 am
Fixed....
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Joe Sermarini on June 06, 2020, 11:43:22 am
Thanks!
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on June 06, 2020, 11:14:35 pm
Quote from: Quant.Geek on June 06, 2020, 09:11:39 am
Here is an example I did a while ago using tables:


OK, so I've generated the html [now deleted] for Table I (using an on-line generator) but how do I incorporate that into the post?

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Quant.Geek on June 07, 2020, 12:28:26 pm
The problem you are running into is that majority of all forum-based software use BB Code as opposed to HTML to encode posts.  It is somewhat similar, but also different.  As such, you can not take HTML and expect it to be displayed properly on a forum, including FORVM.  It needs to be stripped down to the bare minimum and reformatted using  the correct mnemonics, unfortunately.  I can spend some time to reformat your post, but it will take some time. 

Ram
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on June 07, 2020, 06:24:45 pm
Quote from: Quant.Geek on June 07, 2020, 12:28:26 pm

 I can spend some time to reformat your post, but it will take some time. 

Ram

That's a very generous offer, but it's really not worth the effort, as I wouldn't be able to update the post in future.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on June 07, 2020, 10:32:10 pm
OK - I've worked out how to produce the BB code for the table (actually I used an on-line generator, but I see how you can use the table tags here, although it's pretty tedious and easy to mess up).

Trouble is there seems to no option for producing grid lines, and without them the tables are not easy to read.

Ross G.

E.g:

Table I.
 
RulerMintTrachyWt (gm)Tetartera"Half-Tets"
& Imitatives		Wt (gm)Notes
Alexius IConstant.S.1918-193.95 [4.2]
S.1920-234.0Scarce
Thessalon.S.19293.3 [3.8]Some clipping

(and so on.)




Maybe alternating the background colour of the rows would help, although I doubt that this is supported here.


Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on July 01, 2020, 02:34:36 am
I have made a few changes to the tables above, adding some details of the later imitative types.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on July 04, 2020, 04:12:15 am
I have also updated the weights for the Manuel tets SBCV 1969 and 1970 of (supposedly) Constantinople.
Data on these types is slim so I'm not sure what to make of them - are they genuine lightweight tets (c.3.4 gm) or do we just have some underweight examples of standard types?

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Simon on July 04, 2020, 05:33:55 pm
It is interesting adding the acsearch data for SBCV-1970 lowered the average weight , in DOC it is 3.6. from 11 examples. It is not commonly seen as most of the Constantinople issued tetartera are a bit scarce. The exception to that seems to be SBCV-1968,( I have always seen it available on the market.)

Also the coin did contain silver making it a Constantinople issue. You can see the result of Hendy on page 49 DOCIV (DOC Type D SBCV-1970 2.33% and 4.18%) however Metcalf was the one who originally proved the issues from Constantinople contained silver.

I think the next step would be to attempt to get the average weight for different group of hoard finds, that would answer the question if the coins were minted with different weights for different areas of circulation.) It is a theory I don't agree with but it would be interesting to prove or disprove. I do not have enough info on the hoards listed , they normally do not provide weights, only the number of a certain type.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on July 05, 2020, 10:32:42 pm
Quote from: Simon on July 04, 2020, 05:33:55 pm

It is interesting adding the acsearch data for SBCV-1970 lowered the average weight , in DOC it is 3.6. from 11 examples. It is not commonly seen as most of the Constantinople issued tetartera are a bit scarce. The exception to that seems to be SBCV-1968,( I have always seen it available on the market.)


The 11 examples are actually of DOC 16 = S.1969.

But anyway both S.1969 and 1970 still seem underweight for tets.

Ross G.

P.S:  A recent sale by Nomos has bumped the market average weight of S.1970 up to 3.5 gm.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Catalin N on July 13, 2020, 04:42:43 pm
I have 3 x 1970. Weight is 3.38; 4.00; 4.50 gr.

Also 3 x 1968, much lighter: 3.40; 3.50; 4.30 gr.

All 6 were purchased on ebay, so they would not appear on acsearch.

Could be interesting to add a min and a max weight. Weight is all over the board for these coins.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on July 13, 2020, 08:55:44 pm
Thanks for those weights - it certainly helps. I also have an example of S.1970 at 3.37 gm.

Adding them all in brings the mean market weight for S.1970 to 3.6 gm, and leaves the more common S.1968 at 3.9 gm.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on July 14, 2020, 12:38:19 am
One interesting question that Hendy doesn’t seem to address is the weight standard for the trachy and tetarteron. On the face of it, this seems to be about 3.9 gm, which suggests that the standard is 1/7 of an ounce = 1/84 of a pound (as for the late Republican/Augustan denarius). Assuming a pound of 327 gm, this implies a trachy/tet standard of 3.89 gm.

But is 327 gm the appropriate standard for the 12th century Byzantine pound? As it happens we have good evidence that it is, in the shape of the avoirdupois pound.

The Roman 12 oz pound is made up of 12 ounces of 6 sextulae/nomisma, i.e, 72 nomisma of 4.54 gm. A pound of 16 ounces would therefore contain 96 nomisma and weigh c.436 gm (the Euboic mina). Now, as several writers have suggested, the medieval avoirdupois pound of 453.6 gm looks suspiciously like it could be 100 nomisma, in which case the 12 oz pound would be 72/100 x 453.6 = 326.6 gm, confirming the pound of 327 gm.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on July 23, 2020, 07:03:35 pm
Readers may have noticed that two examples of the rare tetarteron CLBC 8.4.2, DOC 6 of Alexius III are currently on offer from a well-known auction house.

It seems that this type (and also the similar type SBCV 2014, DOC 4) was often cut down to around half size, possibly to match the small module Latin types of the early 13th century. I have accordingly updated the relevant Table III above.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Simon on July 23, 2020, 10:34:53 pm
Did you include my examples too Ross? I have 3 examples. How many example's are you showing of each coin?

Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on July 24, 2020, 03:19:50 am
I see only two examples of SBCV 2014 in your Forum gallery, each of 2.7 gm, possibly clipped.

At the moment I include only 4 unclipped examples in S.2014.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Catalin N on July 27, 2020, 03:07:14 am
2014 appeared 4 times for sale during the past 3 months. You wouldn't say it is that rare, except I did not see it outside this interval.

eBay item number: 373092159892
Diameter: 20mm
Material: Bronze
Weight: 3.15gm
Sold for 38 USD...

eBay item number: 153926726032
ALEXIUS I. 1081-1118. Æ Half Tetarteron 18mm 2g.

Nomos - Obolos Webauction 15 - lot 988
Alexius III Angelus-Comnenus, 1195-1203. Tetarteron (Bronze, 21 mm, 3.86 g, 7 h), Constantinople, 1195-1197.

Leu Numismatik - Web Auction 12 - lot 2080 - this one was part of a larger lot


Somehow I managed to miss them all. :(
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on July 27, 2020, 04:10:38 am
Quote from: Catalin N on July 27, 2020, 03:07:14 am

2014 appeared 4 times for sale during the past 3 months. You wouldn't say it is that rare, except I did not see it outside this interval.


Indeed, and in fact I now rate this type as scarce rather than rare.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on July 27, 2020, 04:27:11 am
But on with the motley...

I have just noticed something very odd. One almost universal feature of Byzantine coins through the centuries is that the reverse is normally inverted, at least on official coins.

Now according to CLBC the reverse of the Alexius I tetarteron SBCV 1931 is inverted as usual, and their drawing shows this, but if you bring up this type on acsearch it seems that in almost all cases the reverse is upright.

Does this mean this type is all (or mostly) imitative?

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Catalin N on July 27, 2020, 06:13:29 am
Did not notice this aspect before. I have just one 1931, which is inverted. Simon will now look through his box of 1931s...


Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on August 05, 2020, 01:01:24 am
I have further modified Table II to better reflect the weight reductions of the tets and half-tets over Manuel I's reign (basically following CLBC).

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Catalin N on November 02, 2020, 07:55:51 am
Two SBCV 1933 hit the market lately, both misattributed.

One was lot 2209 of Savoca's 85th Blue Auction. At least two persons knew what it was and wanted it. Sold for 75 EUR + fees. Weight is 3.25 grams.

I assume the second went under the radar, because I got it for 21 USD shipped "buy it now" on Ebay. Item no. 284019237493. Weight is 5.47 grams
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Pekka K on November 02, 2020, 09:16:47 am
This was shown privately, but may be of interest here.
Looks like imitative obverse of SBCV 1975, with reverse
from anonymous follis Cl I.

Weight 4 gr.

Pekka K
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Catalin N on November 02, 2020, 10:38:51 am
I believe that is SBCV 2157.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Pekka K on November 02, 2020, 11:34:59 am

Yes, looks like it.

Thank you.

Pekka K
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on November 02, 2020, 06:38:05 pm
Quote from: Catalin N on November 02, 2020, 07:55:51 am
Two SBCV 1933 hit the market lately, both misattributed.

One was lot 2209 of Savoca's 85th Blue Auction. At least two persons knew what it was and wanted it. Sold for 75 EUR + fees. Weight is 3.25 grams.

I assume the second went under the radar, because I got it for 21 USD shipped "buy it now" on Ebay. Item no. 284019237493. Weight is 5.47 grams

Noted.

It seems most examples of this type are clipped to some degree, except perhaps for the (heavily patinated) Ebay coin.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Simon on November 02, 2020, 08:18:25 pm
Quote from: glebe on November 02, 2020, 06:38:05 pm
Quote from: Catalin N on November 02, 2020, 07:55:51 am
Two SBCV 1933 hit the market lately, both misattributed.

One was lot 2209 of Savoca's 85th Blue Auction. At least two persons knew what it was and wanted it. Sold for 75 EUR + fees. Weight is 3.25 grams.

I assume the second went under the radar, because I got it for 21 USD shipped "buy it now" on Ebay. Item no. 284019237493. Weight is 5.47 grams

Noted.

It seems most examples of this type are clipped to some degree, except perhaps for the (heavily patinated) Ebay coin.

Ross G.


SBCV-1933 is awful early to be considered for clipping Ross. The biggest issue around this coin is the huge variation in weights.  In fact Sear lists it as a full tetarteron and Sommer as a half.  My personal observation is most of these coins are coming from Cyprus, we know Isaac Comnenus of Cyprus minted there , perhaps another mint of Alexius was there?

I have several examples, none show signs of being clipped. My smallest is on a super thin flan, weighing very little. However as noted in this post examples pass 6gm.

Example one.

Size 21/12mm
Weight 1.3gm

Example 2

Size 21.94
Weight 3.6
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Catalin N on November 03, 2020, 03:31:49 am
Quote from: glebe on November 02, 2020, 06:38:05 pm

It seems most examples of this type are clipped to some degree, except perhaps for the (heavily patinated) Ebay coin.


I also doubt the clipping; the two I indicated are not clipped, and neither those of Simon.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on November 04, 2020, 04:39:17 pm
The problem is that the average weights of most of the Thessalonican tetartera types of Alexius (as we now have them) are, to various degrees, below par (i.e, below 3.9 gm).

So where has that weight gone and when did it go? Was it perhaps creamed off by small time clippers as a nice little earner - bronze isn't a precious metal but it is still a reasonably valuable commodity. Small beer perhaps, but still better than nothing.

S.1932 & 1934 are perhaps a separate question – these types have clearly been cut down (or less plausibly, struck on small flans) and now average around 2 gm, and so maybe they were used as half Tets.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2020, 08:46:29 pm
Sbcv-1932 and SBCV-1934 are both listed as half tetartera by all catalogs.  In regards to SBCV-1932 the coin was heavily imitated as late as the 13th century, that will really screw up the weights. Problem is it is very difficult to differentiate a poorly struck official issue from the imitations.

SBCV-1934 only just started coming to the market in the last 10 years , before that it was considered very rare, this coin also seems to come from Cyprus dealers.

As for clipping coins during this time it was death penalty offense, why would someone risk their life  over a little bronze unless it was done at a later date when coins were being clipped. You had mentioned before the half tetarteron Of Alexius III was clipped, I objected because we cant prove it, not enough examples to really prove it. My example as well as others I have seen are on a oval flan.  I could be wrong but  I have always thought the clipping of the trachea was done during Latin rule when the empire was poor and the coins were smaller.

One note to point out is the half tetarteron of Alexius III in Constantinople was vaguely listed by Hendy as a billion coin, I do not see any tests on the coin to prove that but it would be interesting because clipped trachea were billion , this would fit into the theory of it being clipped but to lower its value or make new coinage?

Simon
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on November 07, 2020, 10:01:18 pm
Yes, the “Thessalonican” Tets of Alexius I are tricky, and I have now reviewed and revised my Table I, trying to separate out the official and imitative types.

On the whole it seems that most of the Tet types, even the official ones, generally average significantly below 3.9 gm.

S.1932 is actually listed as a full Tet in Sear and CLBC. It comes primarily in two main styles – a finer style (DOC 45a) and a chunkier, more compact style, which I take to be DOC 45b. (This last is in fact the type shown as CLBC 2.4.8 ).

DOC 45a comes mainly unclipped, averaging around 2.2 gm, while Doc 45b is normally heavily clipped to around 1.1 gm. So it’s certainly tempting to rate 45a as a half-Tet, although this assumes of course a Tet standard of c.4 gm, which, as I said above, seems a bit heavy for most Alexius I types.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Simon on November 07, 2020, 10:42:47 pm
I did not see the descrapacy before.

Here is Doc description.

ALEXIUS AE HALF TETARTERON S-1932 DOC 45 CLBC 2.4.8

OBV Patriarchal cross on two steps.

REV Bust of emperor wearing stemma divitision and jeweled loros and in r. hand holding jeweled scepter and in l. Globus cruciger.

Size 15.81mm

Weight 2.0gm

DOC lists 42 examples with weights ranging from .59gm to 3.22gm and sizes ranging from 13mm to 18mm

I am traveling ,but Sear was based on Hendys 1969 work. I think we have another example of various weights for one issue. What is the heavy end for CLBC?

Clbc used die sizes to determine 1/2 or whole tetarteron. Also the Doc could have included imitation tet as we discussed before.

Simon

Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on November 08, 2020, 12:21:20 am
CLBC copies DOC's 3.22 gm for the heavy end of S.1932.

They note the heavy clipping(?) on some examples, but fail to separate DOC 45a from 45b.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on November 23, 2020, 08:02:12 pm
I have made some significant changes to the Weight Tables above, regarding Alexius I (various types) and Alexius III (S.2014/2014a).

Remember that you can save off the Tables to get clearer images that can be adjusted for size.

Ross G.

Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Catalin N on November 24, 2020, 09:27:14 am
I got this month on Ebay 2 x S.1934, 1.99 gr and 1.15 gr. Although shipped from UK, these come from Cyprus. They are clipped obviously. Noted that many of the coins sold from Cyprus are clipped, including the anonymous folles, which are sometimes reduced to the size of a tetarteron. On Ebay I noted this mostly for coins sold by Cyprus-linked sellers. Is there anything specific that happened in Cyprus and that I am missing?

I am surprised that you had a small sample for S.1953; saw it quite often lately; did not expect to be rare. I have two - 2.86 gr and 4.1 gr. There is one now on Ebay, 2.63 gr.

Edit:/ Can you add the Pb tetartera of Alexius, DOC IV 37, 32 and 42, for completeness? We could find a few examples, in this order, probably. At least 37, there were (still are?) 3 pieces on Ebay, for a price I was not willing to pay.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on November 24, 2020, 04:21:17 pm
I accept CLBC's opinion that the lead tetartera are probably one-off tokens, which means they are not coins in the usual sense although they do have some monetary value.

And while they do seem to be struck to a definite standard I omit them (for the moment) as I can't see any obvious relation between their standard and that of the regular bronze types.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on November 25, 2020, 12:12:16 am
A quick look at the lead "tetartera" yields a mean weight of 4.7 gm and a median of 4.4 gm.

Evidently the sample is not very Gaussian, so these figures must be treated with caution, but nonetheless they suggest that the weight standard was supposed to be 4.5 gm, i.e, 1/6 of an ounce, the weight of the solidus.

What the nominal value of these things was I can't say - a billon/copper tetarteron would seem  the most obvious possibility, but is this a reasonable value for a handout token (if that's what they are)?

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Catalin N on November 25, 2020, 03:56:34 pm
Also a quick look on DOC 37, for a cross-referencing:

Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: glebe on November 25, 2020, 04:09:32 pm
I lumped all three types together in my figures - hence the slightly different averages.

Ross G.
Title: Re: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera
Post by: Simon on November 29, 2020, 08:23:53 pm
Quote from: glebe on November 25, 2020, 12:12:16 am
A quick look at the lead "tetartera" yields a mean weight of 4.7 gm and a median of 4.4 gm.

Evidently the sample is not very Gaussian, so these figures must be treated with caution, but nonetheless they suggest that the weight standard was supposed to be 4.5 gm, i.e, 1/6 of an ounce, the weight of the solidus.

What the nominal value of these things was I can't say - a billon/copper tetarteron would seem  the most obvious possibility, but is this a reasonable value for a handout token (if that's what they are)?

Ross G.

I am not certain either Ross but Hendy placed them because of the coronation of John II and the coin reform.  Nothing I know of was written about the lead coins being issued. Alexius had many critics over the coin reform but that was over the use of mixed metal coins, EG. El Aspron trachy, Billion trachy and the city minted tetarteron and I am sure someone would have brought up lead coins as a complaint but I have seen nothing.

However it does fit the narrative, we do know their was a huge shortage of copper , to such an existent that Alexius had public statues melted to make currency. Their was another case of an emperor making lead coinage to replace other metal was  Maurice Tiberius who ruled 582-602. So it had been done before but I expect since it was a coronation it must have been a party occasion , they might have been the equivalent to Marti gras beads, not currency.

I have three more not on either of my collection galleries of Forum. They are all in only VG/poor  condition but the are attributable as Thessalonica issues ( Full Figure.)  3.6gm , 7.6gm and 5.6 gm I bought these from one Ebay seller unattributed  well over a decade ago so the weights are not included in your study.

Forum might have info in their sold coins section as well. I know Joe had a small group or hoard of CLBC 2.5.1, in fact his offering was the only  offering I had seen before. My example was not his best, the best sold before I saw them.

Simon