FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board

Antiquities => Other Metal Antiquities => Topic started by: Vyacheslav M on April 23, 2019, 09:13:44 pm



Title: Assistance in identifying the buckle
Post by: Vyacheslav M on April 23, 2019, 09:13:44 pm
Hello

Is it possible to find out what kind of belt buckle is?
Presumably this is a Roman belt buckle of the first half of the 3rd century AD. The place of find is the district of the Roman city of Colonia Ulpia Traiana Ratiaria, modern Bulgaria.
I have never seen a belt buckle of this type with a second ring. What could it be - a late alteration or a fake for tourists?  ???

Best regards.


Title: Re: Assistance in identifying the buckle
Post by: Vyacheslav M on April 23, 2019, 09:16:39 pm
Additionally, the second ring.


Title: Re: Assistance in identifying the buckle
Post by: quadrans on April 23, 2019, 11:30:04 pm
The size, please,

Q.


Title: Re: Assistance in identifying the buckle
Post by: Vyacheslav M on April 23, 2019, 11:51:52 pm
Full length 11.5 centimeters.
Plate width 2.3 centimeters


Title: Re: Assistance in identifying the buckle
Post by: quadrans on April 24, 2019, 02:45:16 am
This type of buckle commonly found in military sites...

Regards

Q.


Title: Re: Assistance in identifying the buckle
Post by: Vyacheslav M on April 24, 2019, 02:07:34 pm
I am confused by the second ring on this buckle.
A similar type is common, but without a ring. In the literature and tables of archaeological finds known to me there are no buckles of this type with a ring on a plate...

Here, for example:


https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Military%20Belts (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Military%20Belts)

(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/DSC05322.jpg)

Two Osterburkenstyle buckles attached to openwork buckle-plates. 

Best regards



Title: Re: Assistance in identifying the buckle
Post by: otlichnik on April 27, 2019, 07:35:54 am
I am confused by that second buckle too.

 Those two in the wiki image are from my collection.  They consist of a buckle attached to a rectangular openwork plate which is attached to a smaller thin plate by some rivets.  The openwork plate was on top of the belt leather, and I believe that the small thin plate was under the belt leather.  Thus the belt leather was sandwiched between the plates.  The belt leather ended at the buckle but extended out the "open" end between the plates.

Unless I am missing something, on your example the second buckle would seem to prevent the leather extending out.  So it would not seem to be possible to use it on a belt. 

So I can only see two possibilities.  Fake made by someone who does not understand them - though the rest of the design is very good.  Or, the second buckle was added latter as some sort of modification - it is much cruder.  It could have made the entire thing into a sort of buckle.  So instead of going on the end of the belt leather it would have been attached to it.

Shawn

PS I agree with you dating by style.



Title: Re: Assistance in identifying the buckle
Post by: Vyacheslav M on April 28, 2019, 03:50:10 pm
Quote
Or, the second buckle was added latter as some sort of modification - it is much cruder.  It could have made the entire thing into a sort of buckle.  So instead of going on the end of the belt leather it would have been attached to it.

Thank you very much for your answer

Yes. I also had an assumption that this may be a later modification of the original buckle.
It is unlikely that someone would manufacture a fake completely such a product.

I also found out that only one seller (aurelius1962) has this type of buckle with two rings on sale at Ebay auction. Over the past year he has sold several buckles of this type. Especially appreciate the second.:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/323669176880?_ul=BY&nma=true&si=9LdeX0ff5jWDTYEetqVM0sXdfcY%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/223128417764?ul_noapp=true&nma=true&si=hvAXWPo9oYA%252BkJKON1ZC7G2wnzI%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

They all had a signature:

Roman Bronze Military Belt Plain Loop Buckle with double plate and beautiful open work decoration. The pin is intact. Nice green patina under the earth deposits remaining on the surface. There was some minor professional restoration on the item, but invisible now. Excellent and RARE buckle!!!

I suppose that there may be such an option that the original Roman items found were subjected to either a rough unprofessional "restoration" or a conscious change for later sale ...

And yes, this guy (aurelius1962), I previously found him in the lists of sellers of counterfeit coins ...


Title: Re: Assistance in identifying the buckle
Post by: otlichnik on April 30, 2019, 09:22:48 am
Looking at his stuff I suspect that the modifications are modern.  For some reason he seems to believe that that is the way the buckle should be so he "completes them" to make them more attractive for sale.

I have seen other dealers in the past who made similar pastiches.  I have some "fibulae", and have seen more, made from things like buckles, belt plates, even a sword scabbard slide.  Add a pin in the belief they are fixing a broken fibula......

SC


Title: Re: Assistance in identifying the buckle
Post by: Vyacheslav M on May 01, 2019, 12:32:46 am
All this is very sad...
Probably from the original buckle here sixty percent is, this is the first ring with a tongue and the top plate. They are often found in this form, for example, a similar one was found not so long ago during excavations at Gorgippia. And the rest, the bottom plate and the second ring - this is the free fantasy of the master - "reenactor"

Thank you very much for your answers!