FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board

Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Greek Coins Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Nemonater on April 08, 2019, 08:15:18 pm

Title: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 08, 2019, 08:15:18 pm: This Ptolemy appears to be overstruck on an earlier type. If I'm correct, I was wondering if there was any way of guessing the undertype?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: PtolemAE on April 09, 2019, 12:34:58 am: Quote from: Nemonater on April 08, 2019, 08:15:18 pm
This Ptolemy appears to be overstruck on an earlier type. If I'm correct, I was wondering if there was any way of guessing the undertype?

Thanks!

Where do you see evidence of overstrike?

PtolemAE
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: djmacdo on April 09, 2019, 01:27:07 pm: See B. Emmons, "The Overstruck Coinage of Ptolemy I," ANSNN, vol. 6 (1954), pp. 69-84. These were struck over trimmed tetradrachms of Alexander III.
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 09, 2019, 03:00:42 pm: Thanks djmacdo, I’m definitely going to look up that reference. I thought it overstruck due to the crudely shaped flan and there appears to be some remnants of the undertype in the poorly struck midsection of Athena on the reverse.
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 09, 2019, 09:56:43 pm: Well, I was staring at the reverse while drinking a cup of tea and I almost choked when it jumped out at me.

Anyone else see it?
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Jay GT4 on April 09, 2019, 10:17:08 pm: No...but I want to!
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 09, 2019, 10:35:52 pm: Alright....Spoiler alert.....Don't scroll down if you want to figure it out on your own!!
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On the obverse there is the clear remnants of the beading of the Alexander undertype.I think I miiiiight see a bit of Zeus but I need to do more detective work. The reverse shows the outline of Alexander's eye and profile facing right, descending down beneath Athena's shield. Remnants of the hair and mane behind. Anyone disagree? Am I just imagining things? :o
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Jay GT4 on April 09, 2019, 10:53:34 pm: I see it with your red lines clear as day but I'm having difficulty "seeing" that on the original.
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 09, 2019, 11:01:34 pm: Does this help? I'll try to take a better picture. Once you see the lips between the shield and the helmet, the rest is easier to make out.
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Jay GT4 on April 10, 2019, 12:03:19 am: There it is!

Good eyes Nemo!
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 10, 2019, 10:38:35 am: Thanks!
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: PtolemAE on April 10, 2019, 07:42:19 pm: Quote from: Nemonater on April 10, 2019, 10:38:35 am
Thanks!

There it is... Faintest hint of undertype maybe caused by pre-smashing the original coin but could also be simply that the fields are where the overstrike would most completely eradicate the undertype. This is the definition of 'low relief' :)

PtolemAE
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 11, 2019, 06:54:17 am: Yes, the lowest relief possible! ;D
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Joe Sermarini on April 11, 2019, 09:29:56 am: Nemonater you have a talented eye for undertypes. I don't think I would have ever spotted that face.
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 11, 2019, 11:37:37 am: Thanks Joe. I thought it was completely hopeless and then it just jumped out at me.
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: quadrans on April 11, 2019, 11:39:07 am: Great, +++

Q.
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 11, 2019, 11:55:41 am: Thanks Q!
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 11, 2019, 09:48:12 pm: I just added two Ptolemy's to my gallery along with a little commentary on these trimmed, overstruck issues.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-154565

A second example.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-154566
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: quadrans on April 12, 2019, 02:17:17 am: Hmm, another nice find, ;) +++

Q.
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: djmacdo on April 12, 2019, 10:54:57 am: Here is mine (if I can remember how to post a photo)
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 12, 2019, 11:22:05 am: Thanks Q!

djmacdo, that is a fantastic example, thanks for posting it. I love the Zeus obverse!
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: quadrans on April 12, 2019, 11:32:34 am: I agree, another great example, +++

Q.
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: djmacdo on April 12, 2019, 12:34:50 pm: Better resolution:
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Molinari on April 12, 2019, 01:14:21 pm: Great example, Mac.
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 12, 2019, 06:45:48 pm: Is there a consensus on the meaning of the Δ seen on Ptolemy tets? I've seen it referred to as "the signature of the master engraver."
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: PtolemAE on April 17, 2019, 02:20:52 pm: Quote from: Nemonater on April 12, 2019, 06:45:48 pm
Is there a consensus on the meaning of the Δ seen on Ptolemy tets? I've seen it referred to as "the signature of the master engraver."

There are several small letters like DELTA (also KAPPA, ETA) that appear on some tetradrachms (maybe some other types). The DELTA is seen on many types over a long time period so it may be a stretch to link it to a particular person unless that person was an extraordinarily prolific die cutter. OTOH, it might be the 'signature' of a person on some dies but not others. Some dies that bear such marks are better artistically than others. Then again, maybe the letters denote workshops.

The small letters tucked into small spaces in the design don't seem to play a big role in cataloging types like ordinary control letters, monograms, and design elements do. Maybe they help give some coins a nifty legend. Imho the artistic quality of the die matters much more than whether or not one of the small 'hidden' letters is present. If only those coin makers had left us a better written record of what they were doing...

PtolemAE
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: Nemonater on April 17, 2019, 08:34:02 pm: Quote from: PtolemAE on April 17, 2019, 02:20:52 pm

If only those coin makers had left us a better written record of what they were doing...

PtolemAE

Your thoughts on the hidden delta make perfect sense, just one of so many different mysteries.
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: quadrans on April 18, 2019, 01:23:16 am: Hmmm, Interesting

Q.
Title: Re: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype?
Post by: PtolemAE on April 18, 2019, 02:17:24 am: Quote from: Nemonater on April 17, 2019, 08:34:02 pm
Quote from: PtolemAE on April 17, 2019, 02:20:52 pm

If only those coin makers had left us a better written record of what they were doing...

PtolemAE

Your thoughts on the hidden delta make perfect sense, just one of so many different mysteries.

Yes, indeed. Ptolemaic coinage presents so many enigmas that it is easily tempting to see relationships that may not be meaningful, and hard to see those that are.

PtolemAE