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Numismatic and History Discussions => Roman Coins => Topic started by: FlaviusDomitianus on January 11, 2019, 06:17:38 am



Title: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: FlaviusDomitianus on January 11, 2019, 06:17:38 am
Hello everyone,

as I wrote many times before the LVDI SAECULARES issue of 88 A.D., mostly the bronze side, is by far my all time favorite.

Recently I came across a specimen of the dupondius RIC 621. I already had one of these in my collection, yet I decided to buy another, because of the sharper reverse (and reverse is the main thing on this series, of course).

Here it is depicted a cerimony inside a temple, with the river god Tiber reclining on the left side.

Kind regards

Alberto


http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-152410


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: shanxi on January 11, 2019, 07:27:12 am
Wonderful coin.

Out of couriosity I looked for other examples of RIC 621. There are some on OCRE and a few on acsearch. As far as I see the temple in the back of your coin is different from the common issue which depicts a double temple with nine columns. On your coins there are two temples with four columns connected by a big arch. IMHO this is enough for a var.


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: FlaviusDomitianus on January 11, 2019, 07:58:10 am
Thanks Ralf,

I also noticed the difference with my other D621 and my As D627. I have a small db of this series and I've spotted a similar reverse on a coin auctioned by Gorny & Mosch (Auction 237 session 2 lot 1861).

I will update the description in the gallery and forward a picture to Ian Carradice.

Best

Alberto


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: okidoki on January 11, 2019, 11:22:00 am
interesting indeed congrats


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: FlaviusDomitianus on January 11, 2019, 11:35:34 am
Thanks Eric, I always loved this series, it would be great to complete it!

Alberto


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: curtislclay on January 11, 2019, 11:43:23 am
There are at least three rev. dies showing this arch between the two pediments supported by columns: cf. your coin, the Gorny specimen you refer to, and Paris pl. CXIV, 466.

The arch between the two triangular pediments was already pointed out by Cohen 91 in his description of the Paris coin: "dans le fond, un temple ŕ quatre colonnes ŕ deux frontons triangulaires, soutenus chacun par deux petites colonnes et un fronton cintré" = "in the background, a temple of four columns with two triangular pediments, each of which is supported by two small columns, and an arched pediment".

It would have been clearer if Cohen had written, "in the background, a temple of four columns, with an arched pediment in the center, between two triangular pediments left and right, each of which is supported by two small columns".

A feature which is clearer on the Paris specimen than on yours and Gorny's: the horizontal beam through the whole temple just above the heads of the two musicians, which cuts off the two middle columns in each of the triangular pediments, explaining why Cohen called these columns "small". According to Hill, Rome Congress 1961, Atti, p. 279, there are thinner columns and a horizontal beam in the other type too, but only partially rendered, and indeed hardly visible in his photo (pl. XX.7). He considers these dupondii to represent the sacrifice to the goddesses of childbirth before a wooden theater on the Campus Martius on the second night of the Ludi Saeculares, but cannot explain the two variants of the type: either two views of the same building, or the rarer variety is an inaccurate version which was withdrawn. Two circular pediments between two triangular pediments, each supported by two columns, in the second story of a portico on a provincial coin of Neocaesarea in Pontus: Price and Trell, Fig. 71. There is doubtless more recent bibliography on the question, with which I am unfortunately not familiar. Certainly these two variants of the type deserve separate numbers in RIC.



Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: FlaviusDomitianus on January 11, 2019, 12:23:18 pm
Thanks Curtis for your clear and informative note.

I've just checked my copy of Giard's Catalogue and comparing 466 and 467 - side by side - it's very effective.

Best

Alberto


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: curtislclay on January 11, 2019, 12:31:24 pm
In Giard's photo of Paris 467 one can see the smaller columns between the large ones that Hill was referring to.


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: FlaviusDomitianus on January 12, 2019, 12:01:52 pm
Prof. Carradice was so kind to send me a fast reply on the matter.

He agrees that the architectural difference is so prominent to deserve a separate entry in the next revision of R.I.C. (621A R2), with Paris 467 as main reference.

Alberto



Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: Meepzorp on January 12, 2019, 01:49:47 pm
Hi FD,

That's a beautiful coin! :)

I love all of the figures in the foreground and the architecture in the background.

Meepzorp


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: FlaviusDomitianus on January 12, 2019, 02:41:59 pm
Hi FD,

That's a beautiful coin! :)

I love all of the figures in the foreground and the architecture in the background.

Meepzorp

Thanks Meepzorp,

I've been loving this series from 35 years!

Alberto


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: Steve P on January 12, 2019, 02:42:22 pm
Wow! => congrats!!

Man, that coin is fricken awesome!!

 +++ :o +++

I love that reverse! (yup, it's a total winner)

Cheers


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: FlaviusDomitianus on January 12, 2019, 02:43:49 pm
Thanks Steve for the kind compliments

Alberto


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: quadrans on January 12, 2019, 02:53:37 pm
Great coin,

Congratulation... +++

Q.


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: FlaviusDomitianus on January 12, 2019, 02:55:06 pm
Thanks Joe,

much appreciated

Alberto


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: Jay GT4 on January 12, 2019, 03:00:55 pm
Amazing find Alberto and a quick reply from Carradice as well!  Sweet!


Title: Re: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius
Post by: FlaviusDomitianus on January 12, 2019, 03:06:49 pm
Amazing find Alberto and a quick reply from Carradice as well!  Sweet!

Thanks Jay,

as a collector I feel gratified to have helped identify a new variant (with great merit of Ralf and Curtis!)

Alberto